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Corso

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Corso - I think you know me well enough to know that I really hope you are right. I don't mind being wrong at all...especially when it pertains to my Cowboys.
It's true when they say we all see what we want... I never claim to have had a trained eye for these things, but I did see more than a few plays where his recog was there, his movements were square and sometimes it worked and sometimes he got washed out. I think he'll out-perform Jaylon's rookie year, but that's not a high bar... I believe he's a guy that desires to develop and, as long as he doesn't suffer a bad injury, a year of weight training and a rookie's year of experience, along side working with Lee, will bring out a (hopefully) player that shows outstanding flashes with even more room to grow.

That's my pie-in-the-sky thoguhts.
 

Cebrin

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I think this is a pretty fair write-up. I personally love the pick because of the size, speed, ELITE agility and the fact that he's continually and rapidly improved with experience. That last bit is the most important because it shows an upward trajectory to his skills. He's somewhat instinctual already but he hasn't peaked.

I understand a lot of people wanting a MLB to be more of a thumper and enforcer, but to me that's not the direction the NFL is going, particularly with the awareness of head injuries. I want a player who will break down, wrap up and secure the tackle, which is exactly what LVE does. The fact that he isn't great at shedding blocks is a concern but he has the size and arm length that he should get much better. He's shown to be willing to get into mix and chaos so I'm not worried that he's soft or avoiding contact.

He's not a finished flawless player, but you don't get those at 19. What he brings right away is great coverage skills, no baggage, a good attitude, and absolutely elite athleticism, freakish for a man his size. If he continues to improve his game he'll be a star, if he doesn't get any better he's still a very solid 3 down LB

Agreed. I don't see a softness in his game, I see an opportunity to learn. Coming from the corner position, I'm sure wrap tackling was preached far more than thumping. I think it's a matter of adjusting to the new position. Take in consideration that he quickly threw on 20+ pounds, and had very little starting time at the position. I find his ability to play the position so raw to be quite telling of what he's going to do with more time, and development at the next level. I really don't see him as a project, for the same reason as you. He's already shown how quickly he can learn, and adapt. I mean, corner to linebacker? Who does that? He's a freak.
 

GORICO

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In the wake of a disappointing first round experience for yours truly, I feel it is important now that I clarify my position on Leighton Vander Esch. From day one I recognized the potential (both BOOM & bust)…and therein is the rub. I don’t like drafting “potential” in the first round; my preference is known commodities…potential selections are better suited for the third and later; I want for-sure starters in the first two rounds. At the end of the day, I believe drafting for potential (and potential alone) will always be a suckers bet…even if it should somehow payoff in the long run. And make no mistake, if there is in fact a payoff, it most likely will be a year or two down the round.


Now that LVE is a Cowboy, I will absolutely be rooting for him; even if there will be a continued reluctance on my part to fully buy in to what the Cowboys are now trying to sell to the Cowboys faithful (e.g. Brian Urlacher 2.0 – imagine an eye roll deeper than Mariana’s Trench and you’ll have some conception of how I feel about that unfair comparison).


In an effort to be both objective and unbiased, in the following I will break down what I actually like about LVE and rehash why I wasn’t thrilled. In effort to end on a positive note, I will begin with the bad news:


Athlete VS Football Player



About 3 to 5 seasons ago (I can’t rightly remember exactly where my view shifted), I would have been elated with this pick; there was a time I was enamored with athleticism and SPARQ. I would chart all the various 40 times, lifts, jumps, and drill times and select the best athletes as my pet cat regardless of what the player showed on tape, level of competition they faced, and mental makeup.


“America is all about speed, hot nasty bad(explicit) speed!”


~ Eleanor Roosevelt ~


Likely as a result of the unrealistic algorithm that drives the video game Madden Football, speed was the most important attribute in my view. But in real life, as many of us have already learned, a player’s overall speed is counter-balanced by instincts and football IQ. Another way to represent this paradox (as I have done repeatedly over the last few weeks):


Speed – Football IQ/Instincts = Running fast in the wrong direction.


Listening to 105.3 The Fan interview LVE last night, I was encouraged to learn he is no stranger to watching film; before he joined the 8-man football league his school offers, he was so eager to get on the field that he started in their film room. He further stated that practice did not change with his graduation into the college ranks and credits his late junior year accelerated ascension to that habit. If that proves to be true on the same level that Sean Lee studies film, then the Cowboys absolutely knocked that pick out of the ball park. But before you get your hopes up, the interviewer did lead the witness into that answer, so time will tell if that proves to be true. It would not be the first time a newly minted draft pick merely said what he believed the fans wanted to hear.


Killer Instinct



For all the athleticism LVE possesses, that athleticism in my view rarely shows up on tape. Mind you, I’m not talking about his side line to side line speed; he has that in spades. What I’m talking about is Killer Instinct.


If you are anything like me, in the days following the draft, you will be reading and watching every evaluation and game tape you can find on the Cowboys selections. If I may, I would like to help direct your studies a tad bit here: If the evaluator in question you are watching or reading at any point describes Leighton Vander Esch as a “Thumper” stop reading and watching immediately. This person either didn’t actually watch the tape or has no idea what he or she is talking about.


I will be diving further into LVE than what I did previous to what the Cowboys drafted him, but in what I have watched so far, he tackles like a calf-roper. I’ve used this analogy a few times, but if you are unfamiliar with that particular Rodeo event, here’s what that looks like:


OBOUwj.gif



Leighton, from what I saw, doesn’t hit; he wraps up and drags down. For some fans, all you may care about is whether or not he was credited with the tackle. If that’s your only concern, you will love Leighton Vander Esch. He was a tackling machine at Idaho and put up unworldly numbers in his one and only season of starting (91 solo, 50 assist, 8.5 tackles for loss, 4 sacks and 2 interceptions). However, my preference are players (such as Rashaan Evans) that hit with bad intentions. To be fair, bad-intention hitters often have the tendency to be overly-aggressive and not wrap up following their hit, which can lead to them launching at empty air, as the ball carrier moves around them. That is a fair criticism of my preference; I’ll accept that.


But I like players that hit and play with that attitude (especially my MLB) because of the galvanizing effect a good solid hit can have on the entire defense. We’ve witnessed what I’m talking about. A better way of probably explaining it would be to call it a Blood-in-the-Water-Hit. It’s that hit that gets the juices of the entire defense going. Of a sudden, you see the other 10 players wanting to get in a good hit on the opposition. And when that happens, the opposition will start to wilt and second guess their own gameplan. Running backs will think twice about running up the middle. Receivers will allow footsteps to affect their focus on bringing the ball in whilst crossing the middle.


On paper, as the aforementioned stats should suggest, LVE looks amazing. But when you sit down and watch those stats being garnered in action (if you are anything like me) you may come away less than impressed.


Injury Concern



There are reports that indicate he may have a lingering spinal/neck issue. Those reports have since been dismissed, LVE stating last night during his interview that he has no idea where those reports came from but last he checked Mayock is not a doctor…whatever that means. My guess is this may be one of those rare cases where there is smoke but no fire. That said, it wouldn’t be the first time when a young player decided it was better to be less than truthful about his health situation then forego lots and lots of money.



RKGollyG


With my concerns now in the rear-view, let’s dive into what likely attracted Dallas to Mr. Esch. If you have watched this kid in interviews and/or read about his lockerroom-presence, one of the things that jumps out at you is his clean-cut well-behaved manner. It’s like someone shook a VHS tape of Leave it to Beaver and LVE fell out.


Clearly this is one of the things Garrett really likes about the kid. As my “Killer Instinct” section indicated, for me this is a bit of a red flag, but to be fair, Demarcus Ware had this same exact vibe. So just because he has that demeanor of a gentle-giant, doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t have a special game face for when the whistle blows. Sean Lee clearly has that switch…maybe LVE does too.


Cover Me


In Rashaan Evans VS Leighton Vander Esch, I pointed out that the traits the specifically separates Evans from Esch, is Esch’s noted abilities in coverage. If you are one of those who feels the Cowboys should be more focused on shutting down the oppositions pass in this pass-happy league, then you will be thrilled to know that the Cowboys just might have landed the best coverage linebacker in the whole draft. Having said that, that’s not necessarily saying much because from what I’ve watched of the linebackers that were available this year, that is not something many were asked to do a lot of for their perspective teams. I provide that last disclaimer, because I don’t want to unfairly instill in Cowboys fans a false sense of his abilities.


That said, because of his elite athleticism, he is able to run with most running backs and tight ends in coverage, but I don’t think we would want him following anyone deep; eventually he will get beat. Ideally, the Cowboys will use him more in zone where he can use both his impressive size (6’4”) and fast-for-his-size speed (4.65 forty at 256 lbs is elite) to clog up passing lanes underneath. In this capacity, he could be very valuable to the Cowboys, particularly on 3rd down.


Wrap It Up



As you may have guessed, it’s not like I’m standing on the ledge with this pick; there is a lot to like about Leighton Vander Esch. When you get right down to it, my issue is more about personal preferences as opposed to me knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt he will be a bust. I will say the ingredients you would use to create a bust are definitely there, but until he comes out of the oven after the next 3 years, it’s really hard to say what he will be. With Sean Lee as his mentor, there is good reason to believe he could at the very least turn out to be solid, which I could live with.


Thoughts?
wow my 3rd resonse to your post....anyway...i mentioned in last post that the killer thumpers are being discouraged with the newer NFL rules..that being said...i too was disappointed in Vander esche highlights as a tackler...and just wonder if he might be easily washed out of plays in his more conservative approach?...but i want to say or hope a balance will occur being coached by Marinelli and Richard and Lee....i am thinking a few weeks into camp and Marinelli's system for drawing attention to those who get lazy will put a hotter fire under Vander esche?..we will find out for sure...i am probably pretty safe in assuming you stay up with cowboy podcast talk shows and Broaddus and others will make a point of mentioning who is in Marinelli's doghouse...for me ...maybe its laziness or trust has been built but if McClay and his co-horts are big on Vander Esche then i at this point give them the benefit of the doubt...until of course a different reality becomes self evident
 

GORICO

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It's true when they say we all see what we want... I never claim to have had a trained eye for these things, but I did see more than a few plays where his recog was there, his movements were square and sometimes it worked and sometimes he got washed out. I think he'll out-perform Jaylon's rookie year, but that's not a high bar... I believe he's a guy that desires to develop and, as long as he doesn't suffer a bad injury, a year of weight training and a rookie's year of experience, along side working with Lee, will bring out a (hopefully) player that shows outstanding flashes with even more room to grow.

That's my pie-in-the-sky thoguhts.
mr Corso-- i have always appreciated you approach to reasoning through issues at hand
 

GORICO

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Agreed. I don't see a softness in his game, I see an opportunity to learn. Coming from the corner position, I'm sure wrap tackling was preached far more than thumping. I think it's a matter of adjusting to the new position. Take in consideration that he quickly threw on 20+ pounds, and had very little starting time at the position. I find his ability to play the position so raw to be quite telling of what he's going to do with more time, and development at the next level. I really don't see him as a project, for the same reason as you. He's already shown how quickly he can learn, and adapt. I mean, corner to linebacker? Who does that? He's a freak.

Cebrin--- thanks for that input...i did not consider some of those points...but they are both valid and accurate
 

Corso

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mr Corso-- i have always appreciated you approach to reasoning through issues at hand
I too, enjoy reading your work. Thank you for the compliment. Consider my hat tipped.
 

jday

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How did you rate Evans in coverage?
Hard to rate him when Saban didn't really use him that way.

Part of your issue with my analysis is that you lack the whole picture:

I'm fairly certain you will disagree this but I am more concerned about the Cowboys shutting down the run than I am the pass. The reason for that is complementary football. The Cowboys run a ball-control offense. They do this for a number of benefits:

It protects our defense and limits their snaps keeping them fresh throughout the game
It keeps the opposition offense off the field and out of rhythm
It keeps the opposition defense on the field and over time wears them down which can lead to game-breaking plays
To name a few.

Here's the problem though: Unless our defense can shutdown the oppositions run game, all those benefits fly out the window. It is my opinion that Evans plays with more explosion than Leighton. For all the elite athleticism that LVE displayed at the combine, when I watched him leading up to the draft I came away with the impression that he has better straight line speed than he does football speed. I see the opposite with Evans. His explosion did not jump off the page at the combine...especially considering he didn't deign fit to run the 40 at the combine or his pro day. But when you watch in play, his explosion, to me anyway, jumps off the screen.

That said, I didn't think Evans was exactly worthy of 19, but I liked him better than LVE.
 

xwalker

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Hard to rate him when Saban didn't really use him that way.

Part of your issue with my analysis is that you lack the whole picture:

I'm fairly certain you will disagree this but I am more concerned about the Cowboys shutting down the run than I am the pass. The reason for that is complementary football. The Cowboys run a ball-control offense. They do this for a number of benefits:

It protects our defense and limits their snaps keeping them fresh throughout the game
It keeps the opposition offense off the field and out of rhythm
It keeps the opposition defense on the field and over time wears them down which can lead to game-breaking plays
To name a few.

Here's the problem though: Unless our defense can shutdown the oppositions run game, all those benefits fly out the window. It is my opinion that Evans plays with more explosion than Leighton. For all the elite athleticism that LVE displayed at the combine, when I watched him leading up to the draft I came away with the impression that he has better straight line speed than he does football speed. I see the opposite with Evans. His explosion did not jump off the page at the combine...especially considering he didn't deign fit to run the 40 at the combine or his pro day. But when you watch in play, his explosion, to me anyway, jumps off the screen.

That said, I didn't think Evans was exactly worthy of 19, but I liked him better than LVE.

Run stoppers that can't cover are easy to obtain as low cost free agents or mid round picks.

Many LBs towards the end of their career become Run Stuffer types because they've lost speed.

If an off-ball LB is not really good in coverage, then he should not be a 1st round pick.

You want to stop the run then move DT Lewis Neal, 6-0, 275 to MLB instead of FB. He won't be able to cover anybody but he'll plug the run.
 

Jerryrage

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Dude is trash and will be a wash out in 3 years... Unreal that front office and scouting team will waste that pick on a player who will never be anything in the NFL..
 

jday

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I'm not dogging you, bro. I just have a different opinion on specifics and am discussing them. I get that you are not mindlessly pessimistic and instead thoughtful. It's obvious.

I have watched him. 6 games. And I just got done responding to this notion of his "running around blocks" in the post you said was perplexing. I was right to think taking on blocks was the concern.

I agree that when he is slow to diagnose and allows the OL to release to the second level he needs to utilize technique that he did not display in the stack and shed. I'm just saying that you need to realize that he was working on other things first specifically play diagnosis and playing off OL shoulders.

If you put on the Virginia tape he looks awful. He is slow to diagnose and gets eaten up by second level blocks. My point is he learns quickly by week 14, about 2 months later, his diagnosis is instantaneous and OL are engaged at the line. He plays off the block like a champ. He doesn't stack because he doesn't need to.

I've watched Hitchens, Lee, Smith, and Wilson stack. Hitchens I know for a fact could not do that in college like most prospects. I really see no issue with LVE learning to do the same and it should be better.

There is going to be a learning curve but he has 34" arms ie longer than most NFL interior linemen. Hitchens and Lee have short arms and if they didn't get really good pop they get hooked and taken for rides. LVE should be able to keep OG from latching onto his pads at the arm pit as they all try to do with said length.
The stack'n'shed issue is something I've dove into in previous post, but I left that out of the OP because I recognize that's splitting hairs at this point. Alot of first rounders struggle with that just like alot of first round Defensive Lineman don't come into the league with a wide-array of passrush moves. I get it.

The only reason I brought it up in my conversation with you is that is something that Evans does well. He was a DE in high school and Saban converted him to linebacker. That's also why Saban rarely used Evans in coverage because he was better playing downhill. I wanted a downhill linebacker because I believe the Cowboys should be more focused on shutting down the opposition run to complement the Cowboys ball control offense. But that's just my opinion.

The OP, however, was intended to be an objective, unbiased olive branch. From the looks of things I have clearly failed in the endeavor....

So back to the drawing board...
 

jday

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Dude is trash and will be a wash out in 3 years... Unreal that front office and scouting team will waste that pick on a player who will never be anything in the NFL..
Calm down. Not saying your wrong...you could be right...you also could be wrong.

As I intimated in the OP, I wasn't crazy about the pick either. But at this point, if you intend to stay a Cowboys fan all you really can do is wait and see. I would highly recommend you take that approach before making bold sweeping proclamations that very well could be very wrong.
 

jday

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Run stoppers that can't cover are easy to obtain as low cost free agents or mid round picks.

Many LBs towards the end of their career become Run Stuffer types because they've lost speed.

If an off-ball LB is not really good in coverage, then he should not be a 1st round pick.

You want to stop the run then move DT Lewis Neal, 6-0, 275 to MLB instead of FB. He won't be able to cover anybody but he'll plug the run.
I respect your opinion, Walker...and very much hope you are right! :thumbup:
 

Jerryrage

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Calm down. Not saying your wrong...you could be right...you also could be wrong.

As I intimated in the OP, I wasn't crazy about the pick either. But at this point, if you intend to stay a Cowboys fan all you really can do is wait and see. I would highly recommend you take that approach before making bold sweeping proclamations that very well could be very wrong.


I have flash backs of old Bobby 2.0 here.
 

GORICO

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Hard to rate him when Saban didn't really use him that way.

Part of your issue with my analysis is that you lack the whole picture:

I'm fairly certain you will disagree this but I am more concerned about the Cowboys shutting down the run than I am the pass. The reason for that is complementary football. The Cowboys run a ball-control offense. They do this for a number of benefits:

It protects our defense and limits their snaps keeping them fresh throughout the game
It keeps the opposition offense off the field and out of rhythm
It keeps the opposition defense on the field and over time wears them down which can lead to game-breaking plays
To name a few.

Here's the problem though: Unless our defense can shutdown the oppositions run game, all those benefits fly out the window. It is my opinion that Evans plays with more explosion than Leighton. For all the elite athleticism that LVE displayed at the combine, when I watched him leading up to the draft I came away with the impression that he has better straight line speed than he does football speed. I see the opposite with Evans. His explosion did not jump off the page at the combine...especially considering he didn't deign fit to run the 40 at the combine or his pro day. But when you watch in play, his explosion, to me anyway, jumps off the screen.

That said, I didn't think Evans was exactly worthy of 19, but I liked him better than LVE.
jday...i appreciate the hard work you put in to support your views....we will see if Vander esche pulls his weight or not...hitchens played alot as a rookie and he was a 4th rounder..i believe he got close to 100 tackles as a rookie...so i expect Vander esche to play a lot too...maybe not as much if Lee and Smith both play well and stay healthy...but we will see?
 

gimmesix

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For all the athleticism LVE possesses, that athleticism in my view rarely shows up on tape. Mind you, I’m not talking about his side line to side line speed; he has that in spades. What I’m talking about is Killer Instinct.


If you are anything like me, in the days following the draft, you will be reading and watching every evaluation and game tape you can find on the Cowboys selections. If I may, I would like to help direct your studies a tad bit here: If the evaluator in question you are watching or reading at any point describes Leighton Vander Esch as a “Thumper” stop reading and watching immediately. This person either didn’t actually watch the tape or has no idea what he or she is talking about.


I will be diving further into LVE than what I did previous to what the Cowboys drafted him, but in what I have watched so far, he tackles like a calf-roper. I’ve used this analogy a few times, but if you are unfamiliar with that particular Rodeo event, here’s what that looks like:


OBOUwj.gif



Leighton, from what I saw, doesn’t hit; he wraps up and drags down. For some fans, all you may care about is whether or not he was credited with the tackle. If that’s your only concern, you will love Leighton Vander Esch. He was a tackling machine at Idaho and put up unworldly numbers in his one and only season of starting (91 solo, 50 assist, 8.5 tackles for loss, 4 sacks and 2 interceptions). However, my preference are players (such as Rashaan Evans) that hit with bad intentions. To be fair, bad-intention hitters often have the tendency to be overly-aggressive and not wrap up following their hit, which can lead to them launching at empty air, as the ball carrier moves around them. That is a fair criticism of my preference; I’ll accept that.


But I like players that hit and play with that attitude (especially my MLB) because of the galvanizing effect a good solid hit can have on the entire defense. We’ve witnessed what I’m talking about. A better way of probably explaining it would be to call it a Blood-in-the-Water-Hit. It’s that hit that gets the juices of the entire defense going. Of a sudden, you see the other 10 players wanting to get in a good hit on the opposition. And when that happens, the opposition will start to wilt and second guess their own gameplan. Running backs will think twice about running up the middle. Receivers will allow footsteps to affect their focus on bringing the ball in whilst crossing the middle.


On paper, as the aforementioned stats should suggest, LVE looks amazing. But when you sit down and watch those stats being garnered in action (if you are anything like me) you may come away less than impressed.

With the NFL passing more and more rules that penalize players for big hits, it's better to have guys who know how to form tackle.
 

GORICO

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Dude is trash and will be a wash out in 3 years... Unreal that front office and scouting team will waste that pick on a player who will never be anything in the NFL..

jerryrage---may i quote you on this...you went out on a limb..i do it too when i feel strongly about something
 

jday

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I have flash backs of old Bobby 2.0 here.
Well, I'd by lying if that hadn't crossed my mind, as well. :thumbup:

But, if I'm going to say that it is unfair to compare him to Urlacher and Rolando McClain (as I have read/heard people do), it is unfair me to compare LVE to his potential floor...which is Bobbie.

The crazy thing is their is potential for him to go either way...so here's hoping the Cowboys got it right this time.
 

jday

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With the NFL passing more and more rules that penalize players for big hits, it's better to have guys who know how to form tackle.
That's not exactly accurate. The league took a step back last year in passing...if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere the league passed less last year. But I get the gist of what your saying. Again, how a player hits is simply a matter of preference.
 

speedkilz88

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Well, I'd by lying if that hadn't crossed my mind, as well. :thumbup:

But, if I'm going to say that it is unfair to compare him to Urlacher and Rolando McClain (as I have read/heard people do), it is unfair me to compare LVE to his potential floor...which is Bobbie.

The crazy thing is their is potential for him to go either way...so here's hoping the Cowboys got it right this time.
Barbie was drafted to be a 3-4 outside linebacker opposite Ware. Barbie had no instincts or desire to mix it up at all. They are totally different types of players. He is much more like Urlacher and McClain than Barbie.
 

jday

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Barbie was drafted to be a 3-4 outside linebacker opposite Ware. Barbie had no instincts or desire to mix it up at all. They are totally different types of players. He is much more like Urlacher and McClain than Barbie.
You were making such a great argument all they way up until you brought Urlacher and McClain back into the conversation. LVE simply doesn't play with the type of violence and intensity that McClain and Urlacher were notorious for. LVE doesn't belong in the same sentence with them. For now, he doesn't belong in the same sentence as Barbie either...but we will certainly see.
 
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