Saquon mania vs. Ezekiel facts

DFWJC

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Why would you remove the biggest run from a players stat line? They earned that run as well as a run that went for negative yardage.
I was thinking the same thing.

Seems incredibly dishonest

Im a huge Zeke fan, but this is really silly
Also he left conveniently out the 6 fumbles vs zero for Barkley
And those pesky receiving numbers

Love Zeke, but no need to manufacture negatives on Barkley.
Cant begin to imagine how well he'd do behind our line. Certainly would have far less negative runs
 
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aria

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I think the problem is, honestly, that you're just sort of reading what you want, not what's being written, and responding to your own narrative. Naturally, this has you up-in-arms that no one seems to be taking your bait or participating in your own contextually skewed discussion. Because none of what you said "most people" are saying has anything to do with the conclusions of my missive.

What I suggested their respective performances in 2018 demonstrates is that, at this point in their careers, Barkley is the more "explosive" player, while Zeke is the more consistent, effective, and productive runner across the far broader number & circumstances of carries; and that aside from Saquon's explosive plays, he was actually fairly pedestrian last season across the vast percentage of his touches. The stats I broke down prove exactly that.

Furthermore, while I didn't post it here, I have previously done a similar analysis regarding their college stats & found an identical result; minus Barkley & Zeke's biggest single play --that is, the run which went for the most yardage-- Barkley's production drops off the map, yet Zeke's remains league-leading.

It was by breaking down their college stats I first developed the opinion that Saquon is a back who lives or dies off the big-play, but struggles to dominate consistently on the ground, to pick up the so-called dirty-yards (that his coach Pat Shurmur straight-up called him out for not producing last year, citing Barkley's "judgment" and "vision" as the reasons why), and that he appeared not to be the kind of back who ever really carried an offense's running game.

You're bringing a lot of different things to the table and trying to muddy my argument with your flailing factoids, but none of them have anything to do with whether or not Zeke is --as I state in my original post-- the best guy to just turn around & hand the ball to in the league.

At this point in time, I believe he is.

Remember, not only did he out-rush Saquon by 127-yards last year, but he did so while playing in one fewer game --as Dallas sat Zeke in week 16 because we already had the NFC East locked up and a playoff berth secured.

Again, we're just talking about who demonstrated themselves to be the better, more consistent, more effective runner last season; and the statistics prove that Ezekiel Elliott is that guy.

Across 94% of his carries, Saquon Barkley averaged 3.19 yards-per-carry.

In case you didn't know: that's not good by NFL standards.

On over 95% of Elliott's runs (minus his big-plays) Zeke averaged 4.14 YPC.

The average yards-per-carry for a starting running back in the NFL is 4.2 --which represents the minimum standard for "good" as a professional halfback. As you can see, even subtracting Zeke's longest, most explosive runs from each game he still almost hits the NFL average for yards-per-carry.

Meanwhile, Barkley is more than a full yard-per-carry behind that average on the vast bulk of his carries...

On all but (literally) 16 runs of the season, Zeke outperformed Saquon Barkley.

Hence, I believe Elliott is currently the most consistent, effective, productive runner across the far broader number & circumstances of touches, which has been my only argument all along.

You keep wanting to spout off about fumbles and catches and total yards (which Barkley only eclipsed Zeke in because he sat the last game of the season), and are ignoring the premise outlaid by my missive & the facts which substantiate it.

I think I'll do you a favor & post that analysis of their college stats I did before last season, as it should help you see that the results I've outlined here are not an anomaly but who Saquon has always been.

Happy reading.

:starspin:
For one, you seem to be taking the bait hook, line and sinker. You keep saying you’re done but come back for more. Not many other people seem to take the bait because it’s hard to argue with facts unless they completely ignore them like you do.

You keep posting the same thing, as do I, but whereas I acknowledge Barkley’s ypc were somewhat misleading due to big plays you hardly acknowledge why that is, which is the O line. Do you honestly think Barkley and Zeke would have the same average yards per carry if they switched O lines? No...and not only would Barkley have higher and more consistent ypc he would also have the big plays to go with it whereas as Zeke wouldn’t due to his slightly slower speed, slightly worse lack of vision IMO and worse at making people miss.

You can pull up all the college stats you want, as I said earlier, Zeke has always benefited from being on a great team but I wouldn’t put it past you to not compare the all around talent Zeke had his entire career vs what Barkley had, not to mention coaching, QB’s, receivers, etc.

Lol, you want to say the only reason Barkley eclipsed Zeke in yards was because Zeke sat out the last game of the season but you don’t want to mention that Zeke carried the ball ~40 more times than Barkley and based on Barkley’s ypc then he still would have beat him had he got the same amount of carries. Nice try ace.

And my argument all along is I think Barkley is the more consistent, effective and productive back but he had far less to work with. In other words, other than total rushing yards (because Zeke carried the ball more) Barkley did far more with far less. We had one All Pro go down and Smith with a bad back and people were already making excuses for Zeke. Barkley had one very good rookie, a below average LT for half the season which became average, a back up center, a back up RG and a back up RT for the second half of the season because they fired the starters they had for the first half of the season. That’s hilarious but sad. BTW, I believe that back up RT was graded as the second worse overall in the league and some people are complaining about who we had even with injuries?

Why can’t you just acknowledge the difference in O lines was substantial enough to make the difference in why you think Zeke is better? If you think Zeke would have the same yards behind last years Giants O line as he did the Cowboys then you need to lay off the crack.
 
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PoetTree

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Why can’t you just acknowledge the difference in O lines was substantial enough to make the difference in why you think Zeke is better? If you think Zeke would have the same yards behind last years Giants O line as he did the Cowboys then you need to lay off the crack.

I disagree with your analysis. It's as simple as that.

You want to blame Barkley's pedestrian performance on 94% of his carries on the o-line, and I think that is a prime example of homerism. You're nothing but a Barkley apologist. If poor play by the o-line was truly to blame, then why didn't Pat Shurmur call out his o-line to the media instead of Saquon Barkley?

Rather, he called out Saquon himself, straight-up stating that Barkley needed to get better (be more willing) at making the "dirty" runs, and specifically blamed the running back's "judgment" and "vision" for the lack of those plays.

But I'm sure you know better than his coach.

See ya.
 

aria

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I disagree with your analysis. It's as simple as that.

You want to blame Barkley's pedestrian performance on 94% of his carries on the o-line, and I think that is a prime example of homerism. You're nothing but a Barkley apologist. If poor play by the o-line was truly to blame, then why didn't Pat Shurmur call out his o-line to the media instead of Saquon Barkley?

Rather, he called out Saquon himself, straight-up stating that Barkley needed to get better (be more willing) at making the "dirty" runs, and specifically blamed the running back's "judgment" and "vision" for the lack of those plays.

But I'm sure you know better than his coach.

See ya.
Lol, just because he called out Barkley doesn’t mean the O lone was horrible. There’s no denying the issues that O lone had and the difference between the Cowboys O line and the Dallas O lone but you just can’t how much of a difference that makes. I promise, if Zeke were running behind the Giants line then people like you would be the first to point it out as to why he didn’t have a better ypc. Hell if he even has one or two bad games, the first excuse is the O line. Funny how that excuse works for Zeke but not Barkley.

And you think a quote hammers home your point? That’s laughable! Every coach and player are going to say they need room for improvement, whether they say that out loud or to the media is a different story. I already provided you a quote from Zeke himself saying he needed to get better so I guess that means he’s not so hot either.

Like always, you’ll be back, you’re not going anywhere. Oh yeah, thanks for ignoring all my questions in my last reply to you. I guess you think that by not answering them then you can’t be wrong. Silly you.
 

JBS

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There is zero doubt that Zeke is the best RB in the league, by far, at grinding out yards.

In the 1990s, there was no better attribute for a RB.

In the modern game, so heavily tilted via rules changes to a more wide open passing game, is grinding out yards the #1 attribute of a RB? I'm not sure.

How many SB winning teams the past 10 years had a grinder?

I think it's unfair to label Zeke as just a grinder..he's the best RB in the league as a pure runner..

Outside of whatever attributes you want to label the pats success to, you can't take much else from the last 10 - 20 years..they're the model franchise..and they do it in different ways..qb and coach being the only real constant
 

TWOK11

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Barkley is, really unquestionably IMO, a superior athlete. Apart from brute strength, he’s superior to Elliott in every physical attribute.

Elliott is a more consistent back however.
 

G2

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Yeah, that's why I stepped out. Both are good, might be great.
Yep, I'd be content with either. Elliott has a larger body of work and that's why he gets the nod for me.
 

aria

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Barkley is, really unquestionably IMO, a superior athlete. Apart from brute strength, he’s superior to Elliott in every physical attribute.

Elliott is a more consistent back however.
But do you not think that the consistency is in large part due to the O line? Zeke was fortunate enough to run behind the best O line in the league his rookie year and although it has declined since then it has still been and average line at worst and an above average line at best whereas Barkley has had a horrendous O line at worst (first half of the season) and a below average line at best (2nd half of the season). I don’t understand how some people can’t take that into consideration and acknowledge what a difference it makes, especially with regards to consistency.

Please define brute strength. Barkley benched 225 30 times which was more than all but five O linemen, Zeke didn’t bench press. There’s videos of Barkley banging out 525 lb squats in college, can’t find a thing about how much Zeke squats probably because it isn’t that much. Barkley has power cleaned 405 lbs, nothing on Zeke. Barkley has a faster 40 then Zeke and is heavier then Zeke. Barkley’s vertical is almost 10 inches MORE than Zeke which is huge and again, he weighs more.

I’d say Barkley clearly beats Zeke in both brute strength and overall athleticism.
 

kskboys

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But do you not think that the consistency is in large part due to the O line? Zeke was fortunate enough to run behind the best O line in the league his rookie year and although it has declined since then it has still been and average line at worst and an above average line at best whereas Barkley has had a horrendous O line at worst (first half of the season) and a below average line at best (2nd half of the season). I don’t understand how some people can’t take that into consideration and acknowledge what a difference it makes, especially with regards to consistency.

Please define brute strength. Barkley benched 225 30 times which was more than all but five O linemen, Zeke didn’t bench press. There’s videos of Barkley banging out 525 lb squats in college, can’t find a thing about how much Zeke squats probably because it isn’t that much. Barkley has power cleaned 405 lbs, nothing on Zeke. Barkley has a faster 40 then Zeke and is heavier then Zeke. Barkley’s vertical is almost 10 inches MORE than Zeke which is huge and again, he weighs more.

I’d say Barkley clearly beats Zeke in both brute strength and overall athleticism.
It's how they run, not how much they can lift in the weight room. Zeke runs w/ more strength.
 

aria

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It's how they run, not how much they can lift in the weight room. Zeke runs w/ more strength.
Lol, yeah, squatting 525 5 times plus his extra weight plus his faster speed has nothing to do with how much strength he runs with, are you kidding me?

Squats = strength.

40 times = speed/athleticism.

Barkley had the most yards after contact which tells me two things. His offensive line sucked and he runs with strength AND elusiveness. If you watched most Giants games you would know that a lot of those yards were broken not just due to his moves, because he was swallowed up quickly, but due to his strength as well. Zeke came in a lowly 5th overall in yards after contact because he’s not as quick or strong.

Barkley came in 2nd in receiving yards after contact and Zeke was a mediocre 10th.

To top it off, Barkley led the league in broken tackles with 71, Zeke was tied for 11th with a paltry and WEAK 22. Get that, Zeke didn’t even break a third of the tackles Barkley did.

So either you should start conceding that Zeke had that much better of an O line, isn’t better than Barkley as a strength runner or a combination of both which is what I’m going with.

Nice try buddy, don’t give up like Zeke did in Denver, you may eventually find something that Zeke did better than Barkley other total rushing yards (due to most carries) AND FUMBLES but I doubt it. Barkley literally blows Zeke out of the water in almost every statistical category and all behind one of the worst lines in the league for a good part of the season.
 
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keysersoze

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Listen, I get it, Saquon Barkley is a freak athlete, a really nice guy, and a big-play waiting to happen. I think he proved himself as the best big-play specialist in the NFL last year and I suspect that will continue into 2019. But, as I have been for this very same reason since he was in college, I'm tapping the brakes on crowning him the best running back in the league --as much of the rest of the sports world is already doing.

I did a breakdown after the season, as I had done for their respective college seasons before Barkley went pro, detailing what their stats look like when you subtract their single biggest run or play from each game of a singular season. Just one per contest. The results, factoring in receptions as well, confirmed my observation that Barkley is a back who lives & dies by the big-play --but is not the every-down runner yet (including collegiately) that you expect a "great" to be.

For this missive, I'll focus only on their rushing totals --although it's equally applicable to their receiving stats as well. But I've got a buddy who says, "Zeke is the best guy in the league to just turn around & hand the ball to." I think this breakdown demonstrates that quite clearly.

So, for posterity, Zeke & Saquon's "rushing" totals for 2018 were:


Saquon Barkley -- 261 carries, 1,307 yards, 5.0 yards-per-carry

Ezekiel Elliott -- 304 carries, 1,434 yards, 4.7 yards-per-carry


However, when you subtract their single biggest run from each game (as I've done for the following stats), this comparison turns very different:


Saquon Barkley -- 245 carries, 783 yards, 3.19 yards-per-carry

Ezekiel Elliott -- 289 carries, 1,199 yards, 4.14 yards-per-carry


The disparity is astonishing. Remove just 16 runs from Barkley's season (out of 261) and he drops a *WHOPPING* 524 yards from his total! Conversely, when you take away Zeke's longest run from each game, his total drops only 235 yards.

To put it another way:

Saquon averaged 32.75 yards on only 16 carries of the season.

And he averaged 3.19 yards-per-carry over the remaining 245!

Over the course of the season, without those 16 "long" runs Barkley's average plummets from a robust 5.0 to a paltry 3.19 per-carry (almost 2 full yards less). Zeke, on the other hand, minus his best run from each contest, falls from a 4.7-yard average to a still respectable 4.14 yards-per-carry.

For even greater perspective, if you subtract Elliott's best run from every game he still would have finished 3rd in the league in rushing. When you take away Barkley's longest runs, however, he drops from 2nd in the league in rushing all the way down to 23rd --

That is a precipitous plummet!


But while I believe those stats alone clearly distinguish Zeke as the better runner on a down-to-down basis, by a lot, and likewise demonstrate Barkley as the better big-play back, it's not until it's broken down on a game-by-game basis that the vivid difference in their contributions to their team's offensive success becomes perfectly clear. So we're going to take a more microcosmic look at this parallel to bear out the conclusion that Ezekiel Elliott remains, quite simply, the very best running back in the NFL.


So the way I'll do this for greatest visual appeal is to list their rushing totals per-week MINUS both back's single biggest run from each game. The effect is really quite eye-popping:


Week 1 --

Saquon: 17 carries, 38 yards, 2.23 YPC

Ezekiel: 14 carries, 52 yards, 3.71 YPC


Week 2 --

Saquon: 10 carries, 18 yards, 1.80 YPC

Ezekiel: 16 carries, 59 yards, 3.68 YPC


Week 3 --

Saquon: 16 carries, 58 yards, 3.62 YPC

Ezekiel: 15 carries, 101 yards, 6.73 YPC


Week 4 --

Saquon: 9 carries, 16 yards, 1.77 YPC

Ezekiel: 24 carries, 111 yards, 4.62 YPC


Week 5 --

Saquon: 14 carries, 18 yards, 1.28 YPC

Ezekiel: 19 carries, 40 yards, 2.10 YPC


Week 6 --

Saquon: 12 carries, 80 yards, 6.66 YPC

Ezekiel: 23 carries, 85 yards, 3.69 YPC


Week 7 --

Saquon: 13 carries, 28 yards, 2.15 YPC

Ezekiel: 14 carries, 27 yards, 1.92 YPC


Week 8 --

Saquon: 12 carries, 29 yards, 2.41 YPC

Ezekiel: 16 carries, 44 yards, 2.75 YPC


Week 9 --

Saquon: 19 carries, 49 yards, 2.57 YPC

Ezekiel: 18 carries, 116 yards, 6.44 YPC


Week 10 --

Saquon: 26 carries, 119 yards, 4.57 YPC

Ezekiel: 22 carries, 99 yards, 4.50 YPC


Week 11 --

Saquon: 12 carries, 50 yards, 4.16 YPC

Ezekiel: 25 carries, 105 yards, 4.20 YPC


Week 12 --

Saquon: 23 carries, 96 yards, 4.17 YPC

Ezekiel: 22 carries, 54 yards, 2.45 YPC


Week 13 --

Saquon: 13 carries, 92 yards, 7.07 YPC

Ezekiel: 27 carries, 93 yards, 3.44 YPC


Week 14 --

Saquon: 13 carries, 14 yards, 1.07 YPC

Ezekiel: 17 carries, 63 yards, 3.70 YPC


Week 15 --

Saquon: 20 carries, 37 yards, 1.85 YPC

Ezekiel: 17 carries, 68 yards, 4.00 YPC


Week 16 --

Saquon: 16 carries, 41 yards, 2.56 YPC

Ezekiel: Did-Not-Play


So out of 15 games, side-by-side, subtracting their single longest runs from each contest, Zeke had a higher yards-per-carry than Saquon in 10 of those contests, outpacing Barkley by an average of: 1.48, 1.88, 3.11, 2.85, 0.82, 0.34, 3.87, 0.04, 2.63, and 2.16 yards-per-carry.

Accumulatively, those 10 games amount to --


Saquon: 142 carries, 469 yards, 3.30 YPC

Ezekiel: 168 carries, 759 yards, 4.51 YPC


Minus their one longest run from each of those games, it's clear that Zeke was the far more productive, effective, consistent back across 2/3rds of the season and a vaster number of carries. Conversely, in the 5 games Barkley outdid Zeke, the stats are:


Saquon: 87 carries, 415 yards, 4.77 YPC

Ezekiel: 108 carries, 358 yards, 3.61 YPC


So for 5 games out of the season, minus their big runs, Saquon averaged 1.16 yards-per-carry more than Zeke --out-rushing him by 57 yards across those 5 games.

For 10 games out of the season, minus their big runs, Zeke averaged 1.20 yards-per-carry more than Saquon --out-rushing him by 290 yards across those 10 games.

Over the course of the season, minus their big runs, that amounts to 457 more rushing yards for Zeke and nearly 1 full yard-per-carry (0.95) greater.


If we pit their 16th game of the season against one another (Week 16 for Saquon, Week 1 of the Playoffs for Zeke), again, subtracting their single biggest run from each game --


Saquon: 16 carries, 41 yards, 2.56 YPC

Ezekiel: 25 carries, 93 yards, 3.72 YPC


Consistently, Elliott demonstrates that he is the more productive runner, by quite a bit, across the far broader number and circumstances of their respective carries. Barkley may indeed be the better home-run hitter. But there's no question that Zeke is out there getting the dirty yards, the needed yards, Saquon is leaving on the field; and the fortunes of their teams in 2018 each reflect the natural result of that:


RECORDS --

Cowboys: 10-6

Giants: 5-11


This is also assessed in the fact that Zeke picked up 73 first-downs, to Saquon's 50, in one fewer game.

That's 69 more downs of offense that Zeke's legs provided for his team than Barkley did for his.


Saquon had 5 more runs of 20+ yards than Zeke (16-to-11) & 6 more runs of 40+ yards (7-to-1).

Which do you think a coach who wants to win would prefer, 11 more "explosive" plays on the season, or 69 more offensive snaps? And this whole query instantly makes me think of Emmitt Smith vs. Barry Sanders, because like I predicted before the season, the Zeke/Saquon rivalry is shaping up very much like the old debate between those greats!

Saquon, like Sanders (his idol), is the best big-play threat in the league.

Ezekiel, like Emmitt, is the best running back in the league.


Of course, this contest isn't remotely over. But in all the metrics we can currently assess, college & the pros, this is who these backs have proven themselves to be, consistently. It's extraordinary how much their college production mirrors their NFL performances. I strongly suspect this will continue, and I don't think we've seen either of their bests.

Athletically, this season should display the very best Ezekiel Elliott the world has ever seen. He is now a young 23 years old and is likely fully grown. Word is he's in the best shape of his life, has gone from 225lbs. in his rookie year (when he was the youngest player in the league) to a manly 230lbs. this offseason.

I believe we're about to see the biggest, strongest, and fastest Ezekiel Elliott there has ever been.

And it might just be a perfect storm regarding the physical maturation of his ability being paired with all the talent surrounding him. There's no question in my mind that Zeke is coming into the best situation for a running back in the NFL to produce at a big-time level. Barkley is certain to have more than 15-minutes of fame. But when, not if, Elliott leads the NFL in rushing again, maybe to unprecedented degrees, people are going to have to start acknowledging that #21 is the #1 runner in the league.


--yeah, even if Barkley has more "big-plays" on the season.

Take those away, and Barkley is over 40% less of a running back.

Kid's got to show me some things before he's in the same breath with Zeke...



:starspin:

:clap:
 

keysersoze

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Why would you remove the biggest run from a players stat line? They earned that run as well as a run that went for negative yardage.
He removed Zeke’s longest runs as well. He’s showing how Barkley is a big play RB. Not a steady grinder who chips away at the defense all game long.
 

aria

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He removed Zeke’s longest runs as well. He’s showing how Barkley is a big play RB. Not a steady grinder who chips away at the defense all game long.
If Zeke didn’t have an O line he wouldn’t be grinding away either. Why is this so hard to accept?

Let’s try this

Cowboys O line >>>>>>>>>>> Giants O line hence more consistent yards per carry.
 

CowboysExchange

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Earl Campbell woulda averaged 2 tds a game behind our great olines and zeke only has 6-7 per year for 2 straight years. Saquon and Gurley are bigger scoring threats. Imo
 

aria

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Earl Campbell woulda averaged 2 tds a game behind our great olines and zeke only has 6-7 per year for 2 straight years. Saquon and Gurley are bigger scoring threats. Imo
Actually, no he doesn’t have 6-7 per year (not even close) and Barkley actually barely edges him out but we’ve already discussed how that’s misleading which I’ve agreed with but for some reason the O line doesn’t matter.

And that’s ridiculous to say Earl Thomas would only have 2 yards per game, McFadden broke 1K yards and had 4.6 ypc.
 

CowboysExchange

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Actually, no he doesn’t have 6-7 per year (not even close) and Barkley actually barely edges him out but we’ve already discussed how that’s misleading which I’ve agreed with but for some reason the O line doesn’t matter.

And that’s ridiculous to say Earl Thomas would only have 2 yards per game, McFadden broke 1K yards and had 4.6 ypc.

HOW MANY TDS DOES ZEKE HAVE IN 17' AND 18'???
 
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