2007 CB Tandems - KC Joyner - 6/6/08

[dcfanatic]

Holy cow. How do you not get that Adam never said this?

Ok, problem solved. Adam never said the pass defense was great.

Dargon did based on Adam's stats. Which is even better IMO.

:laugh2:

 

[WoodysGirl]

The defense mode comes from the semantic kids on the playground always trying to spin everything around here.

Honestly, it looked like you immediately took an antagonistic stance before the thread really took off. But hey, we need opposing view points around here.

Adam made the point that the defense was 'great' by trying to call me out in his original post. Saying 'Huh?', as if the pass defense was surely a top ten unit and surely they had all kinds of rankings in the top ten.

Then he said they were clearly a top ten unit and threw out some 'good stats'.

But then he says they were 'officially' not in the top ten. lol.

It wasn't until later that he finally threw in all the stats.

Like I said. I don't recally anyone saying the pass defense was great until later in the thread. You said Adam said it, but I didn't see any post suggesting the pass defense was great. You're suggesting he was saying it was great, because he posted numbers which proved they were top 10 in a number of areas. I don't get that, cuz he never said they were great.

My understanding of Adam's posts were that the pass defense on average was a top 10 unit due to the number of statistics which had them in the top 10. IIRC, he was pointing out that they were not an official top 10 unit, because the NFL rankings are based on total yards. At least that's what I got out of it.

I guess that's where my confusion lies with your position. Because I've only seen one post which said they were great, which is what you've been arguing throughout this thread.

The BS and homerism around here is just silly.

Actually, what's silly is calling someone a homer or a hater if they don't agree with your position. I think it sucks that people on opposing sides start throwing out labels, because they don't agree with another poster.

So let's see if you will say it as well. Was the pass defense great last season? And by great I guess I mean a top ten unit.

A simple yes or no answer please.

It's not a simple yes or no question. Because I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that if the stats suggest the unit was top 10, that one automatically has to agree that it was a great pass defense. The numbers average out that it was in above average group. I thought the pass defense was solid considering some of the players who contributed to it. Could it have been better? Yes. But it by no means reminded me of 2004's pass defense.

 

[theogt]

Ok, problem solved. Adam never said the pass defense was great.

Dargon did based on Adam's stats. Which is even better IMO.

:laugh2:

Except you've been arguing about the defense not being "great" since page 2 or so, long before dargon ever showed up.

 

[dallasfaniac]

Was Dallas' secondary great last year? No. If we played everything exactly the same, while every other team played much worse so that in relation we had the best play, I still wouldn't consider it great. It would simply be considered the best of 2007.

Would I consider Dallas' secondary top 10 of last year? It's entirely possible. I didn't watch every game of every team, so I can't say with certainty that it was; however juding by stats we can get a good estimate. You don't rank that high in most categories by playing worse than most of the league and the with us leading by so much, you'd think that rush defense statistics would be the ones that are skewed the most, not the secondary.

There were alot of plays made against our defense that disappointed me, but I think that every fan feels the same way regardless of their team. I've made a conscious effort to lurk on other team forums to see how they react to the season. They're all like us, except much more mentally challenged. They wish they could trade player x for player y, feel they are one or two plays from the Superbowl, feel they get the short end of the stick while other teams are given preferential treatment, etc.

 

[AdamJT13]

All I ever said in this thread is that the pass defense wasn't great.

Period, point blank.

Adam tries to use stats to say that it was.

Period, point blank.

The others aren't even relevant.

You said you were surprised that they were ranked high "in any category."

I pointed out that they were ranked high in many categories.

That's what is relevant.

Don't try to change the argument just because you made yourself look ignorant.

 

[AdamJT13]

I was surprised to see them ranked in the top ten because most people would not say the Cowboys pass defense was worhty of a top ten ranking based on their play last season.

Then most people don't pay attention very well. Our pass defense was worthy of a top-10 ranking.

Other teams knew they could pass the ball on us by targeting Reeves.

Most teams know they can pass on anyone by targeting their weakest player. And even WITH Reeves playing an extraordinary number of snaps because of injuries to Newman and Henry, we STILL had a top-10 pass defense. Most tther teams -- with or without similar injuries or Reeves-like targets in their secondary -- weren't as successful stopping the pass as we were. Only about eight or nine other defenses were. The rest were not.

I agree the pass defense was not terrible because they didn't allow a lot of big plays, but some of that is probably because Reeves was 30 yards off the WR presnap which led to 195 first downs.

We allowed 195 passing first downs mostly because our opponents attempted so many passes. We were above-average at stopping opponents from getting first downs by passing.

The lesson here kids is that stats are not the end all when it comes to the game of football.

The lesson here is that some people have no perspective when it comes to the NFL.

 

[BaybeeJay]

The defense mode comes from the semantic kids on the playground always trying to spin everything around here.

Adam made the point that the defense was 'great' by trying to call me out in his original post. Saying 'Huh?', as if the pass defense was surely a top ten unit and surely they had all kinds of rankings in the top ten.

Then he said they were clearly a top ten unit and threw out some 'good stats'.

But then he says they were 'officially' not in the top ten. lol.

It wasn't until later that he finally threw in all the stats.

The BS and homerism around here is just silly.

So let's see if you will say it as well. Was the pass defense great last season? And by great I guess I mean a top ten unit.

A simple yes or no answer please.

Its funny how your fear of losing face prevents you from coming close to understanding the debate. I believe they were a top ten secondary, and there are several stats to support this claim. You believe they are not a top 10 secondary. If this is true, name ten secondaries that you watched last year that you believe are better than ours. If you are going to clash with statistics, the onus is on you to prove your point. We shouldn't have to prove your point for you just because the only evidence you have is a few vague memories.

Again, understanding how well any player or group of players did in a given year requires knowledge of how their peers performed in that year as well as an understanding of league-wide trends at that time. It doesn't require some nebulous standard that you have failed to even quantify to yourself much less anyone else.

 

[AdamJT13]

Here's a closer look at the numbers in K.C. Joyner's article, factoring in the amount of time each duo or trio played and the number of passes their opponents threw.

First, here's the combined playing time of each team's listed cornerbacks. If there are two cornerbacks listed and they each played every defensive snap last season, their combined percentage would be 200.00. If there are three players listed, and one played every snap and the other two each played 60 percent of the snaps, their combined percentage would be 220.00.

[B]COMBINED PLAYING TIME (combined percentage of defensive snaps played)	[/B]	
1. San Diego -- Antonio Cromartie/Drayton Florence/Quentin Jammer 	230.76
2. Cincinnati -- Leon Hall/Johnathan Joseph/Deltha O'Neal 		230.00
3. Arizona -- Eric Green/Rod Hood/Antrel Rolle 				228.25
[B]4. Dallas -- Anthony Henry/Terence Newman/Jacques Reeves 		221.79[/B]
5. Minnesota -- Cedric Griffin/Marcus McCauley/Antoine Winfield 	218.40
6. N.Y. Jets -- David Barrett/Hank Poteat/Darrelle Revis 		216.98
7. New England -- Ellis Hobbs/Asante Samuel 				189.35
8. San Francisco -- Nate Clements/Walt Harris 				187.66
9. Denver -- Champ Bailey/Dre' Bly 					186.80
10. Seattle -- Kelly Jennings/Marcus Trufant 				185.06
11. Pittsburgh -- Ike Taylor/Deshea Townsend 				182.58
12. Miami -- Will Allen/Michael Lehan 					182.28
13. Tampa Bay -- Ronde Barber/Phillip Buchanon 				179.10
14. Tennessee -- Cortland Finnegan/Nick Harper 				176.80
15. Indianapolis -- Kelvin Hayden/Marlin Jackson 			175.63
16. Buffalo -- Jabari Greer/Terrence McGee 				170.16
17. Cleveland -- Leigh Bodden/Eric Wright 				169.97
18. Green Bay -- Al Harris/Charles Woodson 				169.87
19. Kansas City -- Ty Law/Patrick Surtain 				168.18
20. Carolina -- Chris Gamble/Ken Lucas 					167.89
21. New Orleans -- Jason David/Mike McKenzie 				161.75
22. Houston -- Fred Bennett/DeMarcus Faggins/Dunta Robinson 		160.58
23. Oakland -- Nnamdi Asomugha/Stanford Routt 				159.57
24. Jacksonville -- Rashean Mathis/Brian Williams 			159.28
25. Atlanta -- DeAngelo Hall/Chris Houston 				159.25
26. N.Y. Giants -- Sam Madison/Aaron Ross 				157.03
27. Philadelphia -- Sheldon Brown/Lito Sheppard 			155.01
28. Washington -- Fred Smoot/Shawn Springs 				152.86
29. St. Louis -- Ron Bartell/Fakhir Brown 				152.23
30. Chicago -- Trumaine McBride/Charles Tillman 			147.50
31. Detroit -- Fernando Bryant/Travis Fisher 				145.79
32. Baltimore -- Corey Ivy/Chris McAlister 				131.78

Obviously, two cornerbacks who were on the field for a combined 131.78 percent of their team's defensive snaps probably would be thrown at fewer times overall than two cornerbacks who were on the field 189.35 percent of the time, and much less than three cornerbacks who were on the field a combined 230.76 percent of the time.

Likewise, even if their playing time is equal, cornerbacks on a team whose opponents throw the ball only 409 times during the season probably will be thrown at much less often that cornerbacks on a team whose opponents attempt 646 passes. So here a the total number of pass attempts for each team's opponents --

[B]OPPONENTS' PASS ATTEMPTS (regardless of players targeted or cornerbacks' playing time)		
[/B]1. Minnesota -- Cedric Griffin/Marcus McCauley/Antoine Winfield 	646
2. Detroit -- Fernando Bryant/Travis Fisher 				602
3. Washington -- Fred Smoot/Shawn Springs 				602
[B]4. Dallas -- Anthony Henry/Terence Newman/Jacques Reeves 		581[/B]
5. Cleveland -- Leigh Bodden/Eric Wright 				578
6. Arizona -- Eric Green/Rod Hood/Antrel Rolle 				570
7. Tennessee -- Cortland Finnegan/Nick Harper 				569
8. Seattle -- Kelly Jennings/Marcus Trufant 				568
9. Buffalo -- Jabari Greer/Terrence McGee 				567
10. San Diego -- Antonio Cromartie/Drayton Florence/Quentin Jammer 	555
11. Houston -- Fred Bennett/DeMarcus Faggins/Dunta Robinson 		546
12. Jacksonville -- Rashean Mathis/Brian Williams 			543
13. San Francisco -- Nate Clements/Walt Harris 				543
14. Chicago -- Trumaine McBride/Charles Tillman 			541
15. Cincinnati -- Leon Hall/Johnathan Joseph/Deltha O'Neal 		540
16. Philadelphia -- Sheldon Brown/Lito Sheppard 			539
17. Carolina -- Chris Gamble/Ken Lucas 					537
18. Atlanta -- DeAngelo Hall/Chris Houston 				536
19. Pittsburgh -- Ike Taylor/Deshea Townsend 				536
20. Green Bay -- Al Harris/Charles Woodson 				534
21. New England -- Ellis Hobbs/Asante Samuel 				526
22. New Orleans -- Jason David/Mike McKenzie 				524
23. St. Louis -- Ron Bartell/Fakhir Brown 				523
24. N.Y. Giants -- Sam Madison/Aaron Ross 				523
25. Indianapolis -- Kelvin Hayden/Marlin Jackson 			498
26. Baltimore -- Corey Ivy/Chris McAlister 				490
27. Tampa Bay -- Ronde Barber/Phillip Buchanon 				490
28. N.Y. Jets -- David Barrett/Hank Poteat/Darrelle Revis 		470
29. Kansas City -- Ty Law/Patrick Surtain 				462
30. Denver -- Champ Bailey/Dre' Bly 					458
31. Oakland -- Nnamdi Asomugha/Stanford Routt 				439
32. Miami -- Will Allen/Michael Lehan 					409

Using those two numbers, we can estimate the number of passes for which each cornerback was on the field (averaged for each set of cornerbacks). This is only an estimate, because while a player might be on the field for 90 percent of his team's defensive snaps, the ratio of that team's opponents' passes to runs might not be exactly the same for the 10 percent of the plays he missed as it was for the 90 percent when he was on the field.

Generally, teams will face a higher-than-usual percentage of runs when fewer cornerbacks are on the field (short yardage and goal-line situations, for example) and a higher-than-usual percentage of passes when more cornerbacks are on the field (long-yardage situations and against four- or five-wide formations, for example). So in most cases, the actual number of passes might be slightly higher than the estimate, but the margin of error should be about the same for each team, which is all we really care about.

So here are the estimated number of passes faced by each set (average per cornerback listed) --

[B]ESTIMATED PASSES FOR WHICH EACH CORNERBACK WAS ON THE FIELD (per cornerback listed)		
[/B]1. Seattle -- Kelly Jennings/Marcus Trufant 				525.57
2. San Francisco -- Nate Clements/Walt Harris 				509.50
3. Tennessee -- Cortland Finnegan/Nick Harper 				503.00
4. New England -- Ellis Hobbs/Asante Samuel 				497.99
5. Cleveland -- Leigh Bodden/Eric Wright 				491.21
6. Pittsburgh -- Ike Taylor/Deshea Townsend 				489.31
7. Buffalo -- Jabari Greer/Terrence McGee 				482.40
8. Minnesota -- Cedric Griffin/Marcus McCauley/Antoine Winfield 	470.29
9. Washington -- Fred Smoot/Shawn Springs 				460.11
10. Green Bay -- Al Harris/Charles Woodson 				453.55
11. Carolina -- Chris Gamble/Ken Lucas 					450.78
12. Detroit -- Fernando Bryant/Travis Fisher 				438.83
13. Tampa Bay -- Ronde Barber/Phillip Buchanon 				438.80
14. Indianapolis -- Kelvin Hayden/Marlin Jackson 			437.32
15. Arizona -- Eric Green/Rod Hood/Antrel Rolle 			433.68
16. Jacksonville -- Rashean Mathis/Brian Williams 			432.45
[B]17. Dallas -- Anthony Henry/Terence Newman/Jacques Reeves 		429.53[/B]
18. Denver -- Champ Bailey/Dre' Bly 					427.77
19. San Diego -- Antonio Cromartie/Drayton Florence/Quentin Jammer 	426.91
20. Atlanta -- DeAngelo Hall/Chris Houston 				426.79
21. New Orleans -- Jason David/Mike McKenzie 				423.79
22. Philadelphia -- Sheldon Brown/Lito Sheppard 			417.75
23. Cincinnati -- Leon Hall/Johnathan Joseph/Deltha O'Neal 		414.00
24. N.Y. Giants -- Sam Madison/Aaron Ross 				410.63
25. Chicago -- Trumaine McBride/Charles Tillman 			398.99
26. St. Louis -- Ron Bartell/Fakhir Brown 				398.08
27. Kansas City -- Ty Law/Patrick Surtain 				388.50
28. Miami -- Will Allen/Michael Lehan 					372.76
29. Oakland -- Nnamdi Asomugha/Stanford Routt 				350.26
30. N.Y. Jets -- David Barrett/Hank Poteat/Darrelle Revis 		339.94
31. Baltimore -- Corey Ivy/Chris McAlister 				322.86
32. Houston -- Fred Bennett/DeMarcus Faggins/Dunta Robinson 		292.26

Those first three charts are the raw numbers (or estimates) we can use to try to put Joyner's totals to use. One of the problems with Joyner's "metrics" is that they only take into account the plays on which each cornerback (or each set) was targeted, whether they're targeted a little or a lot. But the frequency of times targeted also can be an indicator of performance. If you're covering the opponent's No. 1 receiver on every play in a game, and the opposing quarterback attempts only one pass in your direction, you probably played a fantastic game -- even if that only attempt was a 12-yard completion (which would give you a HORRIBLE average of 12.0 ypa allowed). On the other hand, if you are thrown at 15 times and allow nine catches for 105 yards in a game, you almost certainly didn't play well, even if your ypa was a respectable 7.0. So it also can be useful to look at the percentage of passes that were directed at cornerbacks. (Football Outsiders dubbed Jacques Reeves "The Human Target" because he had been targeted on a league-high 21 percent of all passes in our games that had been charted through Week 13 last season.)

Using the total number of attempts directed at each set of cornerbacks in Joyner's article, along with our estimated number of pass plays each cornerback was on the field, we can estimate the target percentage per cornerback in each set. If the target percentage is .1667, that means that the average for the cornerbacks in that set is one time targeted for every six passes they were on the field. That might mean one was targeted once every three passes and the other once every 12, but Joyner doesn't break it down by individuals in this article, so we have to use the average for each set.

Because Joyner includes penalties against cornerbacks in their target totals, but those plays aren't included in the estimated number of pass plays, it raises the target percentage slightly. But the effect should be small, and at worst, it can be considered a slight punishment for players who commit a lot of penalties. Besides, this is only an estimate, not a precise figure.

Here's that list of average estimated target percentages --

[B]ESTIMATED TARGET PERCENTAGE (per listed cornerback)	[/B]	
1. Indianapolis -- Kelvin Hayden/Marlin Jackson 			0.1200
2. Oakland -- Nnamdi Asomugha/Stanford Routt 				0.1285
3. Tampa Bay -- Ronde Barber/Phillip Buchanon 				0.1322
4. Carolina -- Chris Gamble/Ken Lucas 					0.1442
5. Green Bay -- Al Harris/Charles Woodson 				0.1444
6. Kansas City -- Ty Law/Patrick Surtain 				0.1480
7. Detroit -- Fernando Bryant/Travis Fisher 				0.1504
8. Minnesota -- Cedric Griffin/Marcus McCauley/Antoine Winfield 	0.1517
9. San Diego -- Antonio Cromartie/Drayton Florence/Quentin Jammer 	0.1585
10. N.Y. Giants -- Sam Madison/Aaron Ross 				0.1607
11. Jacksonville -- Rashean Mathis/Brian Williams 			0.1619
12. Denver -- Champ Bailey/Dre' Bly 					0.1625
13. New England -- Ellis Hobbs/Asante Samuel 				0.1637
14. Atlanta -- DeAngelo Hall/Chris Houston 				0.1640
15. San Francisco -- Nate Clements/Walt Harris 				0.1649
16. Chicago -- Trumaine McBride/Charles Tillman 			0.1667
17. Tennessee -- Cortland Finnegan/Nick Harper 				0.1700
18. Arizona -- Eric Green/Rod Hood/Antrel Rolle 			0.1706
19. Washington -- Fred Smoot/Shawn Springs 				0.1717
20. Philadelphia -- Sheldon Brown/Lito Sheppard 			0.1724
21. Miami -- Will Allen/Michael Lehan 					0.1730
22. Buffalo -- Jabari Greer/Terrence McGee 				0.1752
23. Houston -- Fred Bennett/DeMarcus Faggins/Dunta Robinson 		0.1779
24. St. Louis -- Ron Bartell/Fakhir Brown 				0.1784
25. N.Y. Jets -- David Barrett/Hank Poteat/Darrelle Revis 		0.1785
[B]26. Dallas -- Anthony Henry/Terence Newman/Jacques Reeves 		0.1793[/B]
27. New Orleans -- Jason David/Mike McKenzie 				0.1805
28. Cleveland -- Leigh Bodden/Eric Wright 				0.1822
29. Baltimore -- Corey Ivy/Chris McAlister 				0.1827
30. Pittsburgh -- Ike Taylor/Deshea Townsend 				0.1839
31. Cincinnati -- Leon Hall/Johnathan Joseph/Deltha O'Neal 		0.1868
32. Seattle -- Kelly Jennings/Marcus Trufant 				0.1960

And using the total yards allowed listed by Joyner in the article, we also can estimate the average yards each cornerback in each set allowed per pass play --

ESTIMATED YARDS ALLOWED PER PASS PLAY (per cornerback listed)	
1. Tampa Bay -- Ronde Barber/Phillip Buchanon 				0.7646
2. Indianapolis -- Kelvin Hayden/Marlin Jackson 			0.8552
3. Washington -- Fred Smoot/Shawn Springs 				1.0085
4. Chicago -- Trumaine McBride/Charles Tillman 				1.0126
5. Oakland -- Nnamdi Asomugha/Stanford Routt 				1.0207
6. Detroit -- Fernando Bryant/Travis Fisher 				1.0551
7. Carolina -- Chris Gamble/Ken Lucas 					1.0959
8. Miami -- Will Allen/Michael Lehan 					1.1160
9. Buffalo -- Jabari Greer/Terrence McGee 				1.1235
10. San Diego -- Antonio Cromartie/Drayton Florence/Quentin Jammer 	1.2220
11. Green Bay -- Al Harris/Charles Woodson 				1.2380
12. Cleveland -- Leigh Bodden/Eric Wright 				1.2479
13. San Francisco -- Nate Clements/Walt Harris 				1.2561
[B]14. Dallas -- Anthony Henry/Terence Newman/Jacques Reeves 		1.2649[/B]
15. Houston -- Fred Bennett/DeMarcus Faggins/Dunta Robinson 		1.2672
16. N.Y. Giants -- Sam Madison/Aaron Ross 				1.2968
17. Jacksonville -- Rashean Mathis/Brian Williams 			1.3273
18. Tennessee -- Cortland Finnegan/Nick Harper 				1.3380
19. Arizona -- Eric Green/Rod Hood/Antrel Rolle 			1.3382
20. Philadelphia -- Sheldon Brown/Lito Sheppard 			1.3393
21. Minnesota -- Cedric Griffin/Marcus McCauley/Antoine Winfield 	1.3424
22. Kansas City -- Ty Law/Patrick Surtain 				1.3514
23. Seattle -- Kelly Jennings/Marcus Trufant 				1.3566
24. Pittsburgh -- Ike Taylor/Deshea Townsend 				1.3580
25. Denver -- Champ Bailey/Dre' Bly 					1.3582
26. New England -- Ellis Hobbs/Asante Samuel 				1.3645
27. Atlanta -- DeAngelo Hall/Chris Houston 				1.3754
28. Cincinnati -- Leon Hall/Johnathan Joseph/Deltha O'Neal 		1.4163
29. N.Y. Jets -- David Barrett/Hank Poteat/Darrelle Revis 		1.4336
30. St. Louis -- Ron Bartell/Fakhir Brown 				1.5926
31. Baltimore -- Corey Ivy/Chris McAlister 				1.7391
32. New Orleans -- Jason David/Mike McKenzie 				1.7827

It's important to remember what I said about Joyner's stats earlier in this thread, that for the past two seasons (2006 and 2007), he has used only "direct coverage" stats for cornerbacks. In the past, he used all types of coverage, then broke it down into "direct" and "indirect." Because he uses only "direct" coverage now, many (not all) attempts directed toward a cornerback's zone or receiver in zone coverage are not included in his stats. That's one reason why the two teams who play the most "Tampa 2" zone defense are so high on the final two rankings (target percentage and yards allowed per estimated pass play). In addition, some zone schemes often keep cornerbacks out of deep coverage against some routes (or at least out of what Joyner would consider "direct coverage"), so that would skew their yards allowed per play (as it would yards per target, which is what Joyner's article used to rank them).

The other thing to keep in mind when looking that the tables above is that including a No. 3 cornerback in the stats usually makes that set of cornerbacks' stats worse. In most cases, those are the third-best cornerbacks on the team, and they typically perform worse than the usual starters. So, in most cases, listing a third cornerback with each set and including their stats will make that set's overall numbers worse -- they'll be targeted a higher percentage of the time and allow more yards per attempt and per completion. And the more that the third-best cornerback plays, the greater the negative effect on that trio's numbers.

Joyner listed three cornerbacks for only six teams -- Dallas, Minnesota, Cincinnati, San Diego, Arizona and the Jets. Here are the playing time percentages for each third-best cornerback -- Dallas (Reeves, 85.17 percent), Minnesota (McCauley, 63.75), Cincinnati (O'Neal, 68.05), San Diego (probably Florence, 79.06), Arizona (Rolle, 66.67) and the Jets (Poteat, 54.1 percent). With Reeves having the highest percentage of playing time of any third cornerback listed AND being one of the most-targeted players in the league (possibly THE most-targeted in the league), it's amazing that our trio still ranked ninth in Joyner's yards allowed per target and 14th in estimated yards allowed per pass play. Football Outsiders had both Newman and Henry among the top-10 cornerbacks in lowest yards allowed per attempt in the games they had charted through Week 13, so we might have been right near the top without Reeves dragging down the averages so much.

Anyhow, it'll be interesting to see how Joyner's numbers stack up against those compiled by Football Outsiders (and STATS LLC, if I can get my hands on their numbers for 2007). Football Outsiders' book is supposed to ship on July 21.

 

[Idgit]

Boy, I somehow missed this thread earlier today. Glad I stumbled across it. Pretty amusing.

One comment: dcfanatic, you're an asset to this board, which is why--embattled or not--crap like the end of this post should be beneath you, IMHO.

Based on what I saw over 17 games I, along with most fans who aren't complete homers, would be surprised that the secondary ranked high in any category.

You filled your post with the 'good pass defensive stats'.

Your agenda was to alert us that the Cowboys pass defense was 'great', but it wasn't. In that agenda you were trying to refute my thought.

You are the semantics king around here. It's pretty sad. I mean it's no secret Roy Williams has not only ruined his rep but has also ruined yours. lol.

But great job on the stats pulling Wade.

And, I don't consider myself a homer, but I certainly wasn't surprised to see our secondary ranked relatively high in several categories. That tends to happen when you're 13-3.

 

[dcfanatic]

Then most people don't pay attention very well.
Our pass defense was worthy of a top-10 ranking.

Most teams know they can pass on anyone by targeting their weakest player. And even WITH Reeves playing an extraordinary number of snaps because of injuries to Newman and Henry, we STILL had a top-10 pass defense. Most tther teams -- with or without similar injuries or Reeves-like targets in their secondary -- weren't as successful stopping the pass as we were. Only about eight or nine other defenses were. The rest were not.

We allowed 195 passing first downs mostly because our opponents attempted so many passes. We were above-average at stopping opponents from getting first downs by passing.

The lesson here is that some people have no perspective when it comes to the NFL.

LOL. Yeah, because they were completing them again and again which resulted in first downs.

The pass defense wasn't ranked in the top ten and it wasn't worthy of a top ten ranking. Just because you keep finding 'some' stats that ranked us in the top ten isn't going to change that.

Everything you say always has a but.

"we allowed a lot of first downs, BUT only because of this..."

"we weren't actually ranked in the top ten, BUT we were worthy of a top ten ranking.."

"we made sure to upgrade the secondary, BUT that's only because it's prudent to always want to upgrade..."

IMO, this secondary wasn't great last season and they weren't worthy of a top ten ranking. That's what I basically said in the first post of this silly thread. But once again, just like you find a way to do with every Roy thread, you try to make things seem better than they actually were by pulling some obscure stats.

I mean it's kind of sad. All that time on that post above. lol.

It's pretty simple. If the secondary was so good last year then why was it considered across the board to be the weak link of the defense by an entire fan base? Why did Jerry Jones not even offer three of it's participating members a contract to stay with the team? Why was it a priority to go out and take a huge chance on Pacman and to draft a CB in round one?

Would a team that had a 'clearly deserving of a top ten ranking' do all of these things in one off season? No.

So keep finding stats instead of basing an opinion off of what you saw over 17 games. Do you even watch the playoffs? You should just pick your champion after all the regular season games are over. Crunch the stats and detemine some method of who should get the Adam Trophy.

Seriously, stats are nice and all but they aren't the end all and you must learn to understand this. More than a few people have posted in this thread and said the secondary was average or good. I agreed on that. But your original post tried to make me seem like I was crazy because I was surprised they were ranked in the top ten of any categories. Your 4th, 5th, 7th, 2nd, whatever rankings you came up with were to imply that the pass defense was great last season and it simply wasn't. And if you deny this then I ask you why did you start the post off with "HUH"?, as if to say that it was completely out of the realm of rational thinking that someone could not see how great this pass defense was last seaon.

The issue in this thread has now become a small mob against me. I get it. You guys are sticking together and that's great. Do what you do.

Me, I have to move on now. It's not really worth the effort anymore.

 

[AdamJT13]

LOL. Yeah, because they were completing them again and again which resulted in first downs.

Wrong. Our opponents had the fourth-most attempts because they called the third-highest percentage of pass plays. Our opponents ran an average number of plays, converted a below-average number of third downs and had a below-average percentage of pass attempts that went for first downs.

The pass defense wasn't ranked in the top ten and it wasn't worthy of a top ten ranking. Just because you keep finding 'some' stats that ranked us in the top ten isn't going to change that.

It wasn't ranked in the top 10 in total yards only because our opponents passed so much.

Everything you say always has a but.

"we allowed a lot of first downs, BUT only because of this..."

"we weren't actually ranked in the top ten, BUT we were worthy of a top ten ranking.."

"we made sure to upgrade the secondary, BUT that's only because it's prudent to always want to upgrade..."

That's because some people have no clue how to look at stats or what they mean.

You could have had the best secondary in NFL history, allowed the lowest passer rating in NFL history, never allowed a touchdown pass all season and allowed only 4.6 yards per pass attempt (more than one full yard per pass lower than last season's best average), but if your opponents attempted 700 passes, you WOULD NOT have finished among the top 10 in pass defense last season, according to the NFL. Why? Simply because your opponents passed so much.

If your opponents attempted 700 passes, you could have allowed the lowest first-down percentage in the NFL last season and still have given up more than 200 passing first downs? Why? Simply because your opponents passed so much.

If you don't know how to look at stats, you might see that the team in those examples gave up a lot of yards and first downs and think they weren't in the top 10, but they would have been by far the best secondary in the NFL. Those rankings -- the ones based on totals -- are misleading because of the number of attempts by their opponents. That's why it's important to look at the averages, not just the totals.

IMO, this secondary wasn't great last season and they weren't worthy of a top ten ranking.

And your opinion is wrong.

It's pretty simple. If the secondary was so good last year then why was it considered across the board to be the weak link of the defense by an entire fan base?

Because pass defense is the most critical element of a defense, the one most responsible for yards and points allowed, the one most responsible for winning and losing. Our opponents were passing more than 62 percent of the time last season, so even if the pass defense and run defense were successful the same percentage of the time, the pass defense's failures would be noticed almost twice as much because their chances for failure happened almost twice as often. You can have a top-10 pass defense and a mediocre run defense, and if your opponent doesn't run the ball very much, or as long as your run defense isn't a complete sieve, fans aren't really going to care about the times the run defense fails. But they will care about the few times the pass defense fails. You can bet that there are fan bases of 22 or more teams who considered their pass defense a bigger weakness than ours was, because it was.

Why did Jerry Jones not even offer three of it's participating members a contract to stay with the team? Why was it a priority to go out and take a huge chance on Pacman and to draft a CB in round one?

I already answered those questions. Just because you're a top-10 pass defense, it doesn't mean you don't upgrade the personnel whenever you can.

Would a team that had a 'clearly deserving of a top ten ranking' do all of these things in one off season? No.

Yes, they would, if they needed to upgrade at those positions.

So keep finding stats instead of basing an opinion off of what you saw over 17 games.

I am basing my opinion off what I saw. The difference is, I know how to put things in perspective. You seem like the type of fan who sees something bad happen and complains that we're "the worst in the NFL" at something, because you don't know what the worst in the NFL looks like. You watched our secondary and noticed that some things weren't great, so you assume that we weren't worthy of being in the top 10. But if you had the proper perspective of the entire league, you'd realize that our pass defense WAS one of the 10 best in the NFL.

Do you even watch the playoffs? You should just pick your champion after all the regular season games are over. Crunch the stats and detemine some method of who should get the Adam Trophy.

And now you're just being stupid. This thread has nothing to do with winning or losing in the playoffs. It's about the regular-season pass defense stats.

Seriously, stats are nice and all but they aren't the end all and you must learn to understand this. More than a few people have posted in this thread and said the secondary was average or good. I agreed on that. But your original post tried to make me seem like I was crazy because I was surprised they were ranked in the top ten of any categories. Your 4th, 5th, 7th, 2nd, whatever rankings you came up with were to imply that the pass defense was great last season and it simply wasn't. And if you deny this then I ask you why did you start the post off with "HUH"?, as if to say that it was completely out of the realm of rational thinking that someone could not see how great this pass defense was last seaon.

It's completely out of the realm of rational thinking that someone could not see that we would be ranked high in yards allowed per attempt -- unless they didn't pay any attention to our stats last season. You obviously didn't, which is why you were so surprised.

The issue in this thread has now become a small mob against me. I get it. You guys are sticking together and that's great. Do what you do.

Me, I have to move on now. It's not really worth the effort anymore.

As they say, ignorance is bliss.

 

[masomenos]

Adam, earlier I claimed to be an atheist but I think I'd be willing to convert to Adamism. You're input on threads always amazes me

 

[Goldenrichards83]

Here's a closer look at the numbers in K.C. Joyner's article, factoring in the amount of time each duo or trio played and the number of passes their opponents threw.

Outsiders' book is supposed to ship on July 21.

Game, set match