2007 CB Tandems - KC Joyner - 6/6/08

[Goldenrichards83]

So, people who actually pay attention are "complete homers"?

Anyone who paid attention knows that our secondary ranked high in most statistics and therefore wouldn't be "surprised" that it ranked high "in any category," considering that it ranked high in most categories.




Just about every pass defense stat there is was a "good pass defense stat" --

Passer rating allowed? Fifth in the NFL.

Touchdown percentage allowed? Fourth in the NFL.

Interception percentage? Thirteenth in the NFL.

Completion percentage allowed? Ninth in the NFL.

Yards allowed per attempt? Seventh in the NFL.

Yards allowed per completion? Thirteenth in the NFL.

First downs allowed per attempt? Fifteenth in the NFL.

First downs allowed per completion? Twenty-second in the NFL.

Long pass percentage allowed? Seventh in the NFL.

Passing DVOA? Ninth in the NFL.

Passing VOA? Ninth in the NFL.

AYA per attempt? Sixth in the NFL.


We were above-average in 11 out of 12 stats and among the top nine in eight out of 12 stats.

If you know of ANY other pass defense stats in which we were below-average, please share.




OK, I'll admit it. My "agenda" is to point out the truth to the misinformed. Sorry.

DCfanactic>:splat:

 

[jterrell]

The Cowboys's Dbackfield was fine last year when Henry and Newman were healthy and on the field.

When we suffered at the end of the year it was the offense that tailed off horridly. We lost to NYG by playing about half as well along the OL as we had the previous two meetings.

We had to go heavy DB this year because Henry and Newman are no longer young guys, not because they can't play CB. That is why both guys will likely be back at starting CB.

Part of the issue was salary. Were we going to pay Jacques Reeves and Nate Jones like quality NFL CBs knowing their limitations or replace them. We decided to replace them with guys who could step into starter roles int he near future.

Every team in the NFL will give up yards and points. When your offense was the 2nd best in the league for about 12 weeks other teams will tend to get some stat accumulation on you. That is pretty much consistent regardless of team. There will be some competitive balance. That is an area where stats are always misleading.

What is the metric for how teams perform only within a 7 point deficit or 7 point advantage? That to me is the most telling stat.

 

[dcfanatic]

So, people who actually pay attention are "complete homers"?

Anyone who paid attention knows that our secondary ranked high in most statistics and therefore wouldn't be "surprised" that it ranked high "in any category," considering that it ranked high in most categories.




Just about every pass defense stat there is was a "good pass defense stat" --

Passer rating allowed? Fifth in the NFL.

Touchdown percentage allowed? Fourth in the NFL.

Interception percentage? Thirteenth in the NFL.

Completion percentage allowed? Ninth in the NFL.

Yards allowed per attempt? Seventh in the NFL.

Yards allowed per completion? Thirteenth in the NFL.

First downs allowed per attempt? Fifteenth in the NFL.

First downs allowed per completion? Twenty-second in the NFL.

Long pass percentage allowed? Seventh in the NFL.

Passing DVOA? Ninth in the NFL.

Passing VOA? Ninth in the NFL.

AYA per attempt? Sixth in the NFL.


We were above-average in 11 out of 12 stats and among the top nine in eight out of 12 stats.

If you know of ANY other pass defense stats in which we were below-average, please share.

OK, I'll admit it. My "agenda" is to point out the truth to the misinformed. Sorry.

There you go. I am sorry I forced you into putting up some stats that say what I have been saying all along.

The secondary was not great like you tried to make it sound.

You should have also thrown in that the defense allowed 20 points a game.

I thought this discussion would have been over when you guys relaized we didn't even try to resign Reeves, Nate Jones or Keith Davis and then made the CB position a must need in the draft, not to mention take a huge risk on Pacman Jones.

Then when I thought about a little more I remembered I was disussing things with the 'semantics are fun' crowd, lol.

 

[dcfanatic]

I like how dcfanatic has taken the time to address everyone's post except for this one. Silly man. . .

LOL. BaybeeJay is trying to make friends...how cute.

The secondary was so 'above average' that 3 of the players from it are gone and the team didn't ever raise a finger to try and resign them.

Wake up bro.

 

[theogt]

There you go. I am sorry I forced you into putting up some stats that say what I have been saying all along.

The secondary was not great like you tried to make it sound.

You should have also thrown in that the defense allowed 20 points a game.

I thought this discussion would have been over when you guys relaized we didn't even try to resign Reeves, Nate Jones or Keith Davis and then made the CB position a must need in the draft, not to mention take a huge risk on Pacman Jones.

Then when I thought about a little more I remembered I was disussing things with the 'semantics are fun' crowd, lol.

So the stats are only worthwhile when they prove your particular point?

You looked at 12 stats, located the worst possible ones, and said, "See I told you we sucked!!!!11"

Do you honestly not see how you're being a hypocrite here?

 

[dcfanatic]

So the stats are only worthwhile when they prove your particular point?

You looked at 12 stats, located the worst possible ones, and said, "See I told you we sucked!!!!11"

Do you honestly not see how you're being a hypocrite here?

I give up.

You four or five guys are right. This pass defense was great last year which was proven by the stats. Thanks Adam.

Me and the rest of the people in the universe, which includes Jerry Jones, were wrong to think that the pass defense was average at best and needed some serious upgrading.

Jerry was a fool not to resign Nate Jones and Jacques Reeves and Keith Davis. He made a huge error in going after Pacman and drafting Jenkins and Scandrick.

I apologize for my lack of knowledge of the game of football.

I also apologize on behalf of Jerry Jones. Do you guys want me to ask him to step down?

:laugh2:

 

[dargonking999]

I give up.

You four or five guys are right. This pass defense was great last year which was proven by the stats. Thanks Adam.

Me and the rest of the people in the universe, which includes Jerry Jones, were wrong to think that the pass defense was average at best and needed some serious upgrading.

Jerry was a fool not to resign Nate Jones and Jacques Reeves and Keith Davis. He made a huge error in going after Pacman and drafting Jenkins and Scandrick.

I apologize for my lack of knowledge of the game of football.

I also apologize on behalf of Jerry Jones. Do you guys want me to ask him to step down?

:laugh2:

Just because you improve your team, doesn't mean that you don't need to improve. In comparsion to thsoe teams around the league, we were one of the top units. In order to be the top unit we went out and replaced what we thought were the players that kept us from being the top team.

You on the other hand, are trying to spin this as our pass defense sucked and crap. BUt the bottom line is, the 4 starters in secondary are coming back in 08. That means they were doing something right. But please, continue trying to bash the secondary.


And one last note, the whole reason people are bashing you, is because you said that the secondary sucks, and that stats don't prove that they were good, but you turned around and showed stats that proved they sucked. It's called hypocrisy.

 

[tomson75]

I give up.

You four or five guys are right. This pass defense was great last year which was proven by the stats. Thanks Adam.

Me and the rest of the people in the universe, which includes Jerry Jones, were wrong to think that the pass defense was average at best and needed some serious upgrading.

Jerry was a fool not to resign Nate Jones and Jacques Reeves and Keith Davis. He made a huge error in going after Pacman and drafting Jenkins and Scandrick.

I apologize for my lack of knowledge of the game of football.

I also apologize on behalf of Jerry Jones. Do you guys want me to ask him to step down?

:laugh2:

I love how you continually exaggerate any opposing viewpoint.

 

[AdamJT13]

There you go. I am sorry I forced you into putting up some stats that say what I have been saying all along.

The secondary was not great like you tried to make it sound.

I said our secondary was among the top 10, which is true. Look at ALL of the comprehensive stats -- passer rating, DVOA, VOA and AYA. We were between fifth and ninth in ALL of them. That means we had a top-10 pass defense overall. Just because were were only a little above-average in a few stats and below-average in ONE stat doesn't mean were weren't among the top 10. And three of the four stats you highlighted are affected more by the types of passes our opponents attempted than anything our secondary did or did not do.

We had a top-five offense last year, but that doesn't mean you can't find any offensive stats where we were below-average. And being below-average in something doesn't mean you weren't among the top five overall.

You should have also thrown in that the defense allowed 20 points a game.

Our defense didn't allow 20 points per game. And we're talking about the pass defense, not the overall defense. We allowed the fourth-lowest percentage of touchdown passes.

You want our run defense stats? Here you go -- 13th in yards allowed per attempt, 23rd in touchdowns allowed per attempt, 20th in first downs allowed per attempt, 22nd in long run percentage allowed, seventh in stuff percentage, 14th in run DVOA and 14th in run VOA.

Unlike our pass defense, our run defense was NOT among the top 10 in the league.

I thought this discussion would have been over when you guys relaized we didn't even try to resign Reeves, Nate Jones or Keith Davis and then made the CB position a must need in the draft, not to mention take a huge risk on Pacman Jones.

What discussion are you talking about?

You said you were "very surprised to see the Cowboys ranked high on any kind of statistical report when it comes to the secondary." Well, it shouldn't be surprising to see the Cowboys ranked high on a report based on yards per attempt, considering that we were seventh in the NFL in yards per attempt.

THAT is the discussion here.

The fact that Jacques Reeves, Nate Jones and Keith Davis (two of whom have nothing to do with the thread) aren't very good and are replaceable is irrelevant.

 

[theogt]

I give up.

You four or five guys are right. This pass defense was great last year which was proven by the stats. Thanks Adam.

Me and the rest of the people in the universe, which includes Jerry Jones, were wrong to think that the pass defense was average at best and needed some serious upgrading.

Jerry was a fool not to resign Nate Jones and Jacques Reeves and Keith Davis. He made a huge error in going after Pacman and drafting Jenkins and Scandrick.

I apologize for my lack of knowledge of the game of football.

I also apologize on behalf of Jerry Jones. Do you guys want me to ask him to step down?

:laugh2:

You keep talking about all of these people that share your opinion, but I don't see anyone in here really backing you up on this one. If you're attempting to show that you're in the majority, clearly that's not the case in this thread.

And again, no one ever said the pass defense was "great." You just made that up.

 

[AdamJT13]

Me and the rest of the people in the universe, which includes Jerry Jones, were wrong to think that the pass defense was average at best and needed some serious upgrading.

Jerry was a fool not to resign Nate Jones and Jacques Reeves and Keith Davis. He made a huge error in going after Pacman and drafting Jenkins and Scandrick.

I apologize for my lack of knowledge of the game of football.

I also apologize on behalf of Jerry Jones. Do you guys want me to ask him to step down?

Jerry Jones never said our pass defense was average at best. If you ask him, he'd probably say we had a top-10 pass defense. But like I said, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to upgrade every position possible, including our No. 3 cornerback, No. 4 cornerback and backup strong safety.

We had one of the best corps of tight ends in the NFL last season, but we still made a move to try to upgrade the position (backup tight end).

We had one of the top-10 running games in the NFL last season, but we still made a move to try to upgrade the position (backup running back to replace our former starter).

And we had a top-five passing game last season, but we still attempted to upgrade our wide receiver position.

We had a top-10 pass defense, but we still could replace Jacques Reeves (a mediocre backup forced into starting 13 games because of injuries), Nate Jones (a limited dime back) and Keith Davis (a below-average backup strong safety).

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

As a whole the pass defense was good especially because of our pass rush. But with a safety thats limited in coverage and absolutely horrible 3rd and 4th corners there certainly was room for improvement.

Our defense is going to be scary good this year i think. We will have 3 or 4 corners that can handle press coverage. Can you say pressure?

 

[dcfanatic]

Just because you improve your team, doesn't mean that you don't need to improve. In comparsion to thsoe teams around the league, we were one of the top units. In order to be the top unit we went out and replaced what we thought were the players that kept us from being the top team.

You on the other hand, are trying to spin this as our pass defense sucked and crap. BUt the bottom line is, the 4 starters in secondary are coming back in 08. That means they were doing something right. But please, continue trying to bash the secondary.


And one last note, the whole reason people are bashing you, is because you said that the secondary sucks, and that stats don't prove that they were good, but you turned around and showed stats that proved they sucked. It's called hypocrisy.

Please find the post where I said they sucked.

 

[dargonking999]

Please find the post where I said they sucked.

Ok im sorry, i should have said, not a good defense.

My fault.

But i do like how you complety igonred the entire rest of the post.

 

[dcfanatic]

I love how you continually exaggerate any opposing viewpoint.

All I ever said in this thread is that the pass defense wasn't great.

Period, point blank.

Adam tries to use stats to say that it was.

Period, point blank.

The others aren't even relevant.

 

[dcfanatic]

Just because you improve your team, doesn't mean that you don't need to improve. In comparsion to thsoe teams around the league, we were one of the top units. In order to be the top unit we went out and replaced what we thought were the players that kept us from being the top team.

You on the other hand, are trying to spin this as our pass defense sucked and crap. BUt the bottom line is, the 4 starters in secondary are coming back in 08. That means they were doing something right. But please, continue trying to bash the secondary.


And one last note, the whole reason people are bashing you, is because you said that the secondary sucks, and that stats don't prove that they were good, but you turned around and showed stats that proved they sucked. It's called hypocrisy.

Ok, here's the rest of the post.

Of course you improve. In the mind of the Cowboys going after two rookies and a 'maybe he can make it to September if he's not suspended again' player was improving. So should that not tell you something?

 

[dargonking999]

All I ever said in this thread is that the pass defense wasn't great.

Period, point blank.

Adam tries to use stats to say that it was.

Period, point blank.

The others aren't even relevant.

a pass defense that isn't great is in the top 10 of any catergory.

Period, point blank.

 

[dargonking999]

Ok, here's the rest of the post.

Of course you improve. In the mind of the Cowboys going after two rookies and a 'maybe he can make it to September if he's not suspended again' player was improving. So should that not tell you something?

Yes, that we didn't want to pay 20 mil Reeves, and wanted to replace Nate Jones, with two younger CB's with a higher celing.

 

[dcfanatic]

You keep talking about all of these people that share your opinion, but I don't see anyone in here really backing you up on this one. If you're attempting to show that you're in the majority, clearly that's not the case in this thread.

And again, no one ever said the pass defense was "great." You just made that up.

Adam trying to sell us stats in refuting my post that I was surprised about seeing the Cowboys secondary ranked high in any category because they weren't great last season which resulted in the trade for Pacman and the drafting of two rookie CB's isn't him trying to say the pass defense was great?

Well ok then. Sorry, I was off the mark. Time to move on.

 

[dcfanatic]

a pass defense that isn't great is in the top 10 of any catergory.

Period, point blank.

So then you are saying the pass defense was great?