2008 Rookie Corner Class (how they performed statistically)

[Bob Sacamano]

Facts do not have to be convincing, they stand on their own as what they are.


And the specifics obviously were necessary even if you don't agree with them considering they drew added mentions.

Scandrick wasn't babied, he simply wasn't a first rounder and asked to man cover early on. By the same token he wasn't atrocious early on and Jenkins clearly was. For a 5th round pick, day 1 nickel duty is more than anyone can or should ask. He exceled there and never really had any issues until he was asked to play man coverage in the slots. He gave up some completions in those scenarios late in the season.

Jenkins was asked to cover early on and simply couldn't. He was getting lost on moves and then he was making sports center for his run support.... But late in the year Jenkins was starting outside and giving up next to nothing. He really improved as the year progressed. That's why he has a small lead now for the starting job. Not that it really matters as all 3 CBs will probably start considering the way offenses set up now. TNew is probably best inside as he covers so well from the slot.

While I do not believe we have a top 5 CB on the roster I would say our CB corps is top 5.

There was no coincidence Scandrick was discussed as a possible safety hybrid type. He plays well on the boundary coming up and covering or playing run and he plays zones well.

Jenkins is a raw cover corner who really needs to step up his run support game and get the discipline to play double moves.

you're digging too deep for theo, jt

 

[AdamJT13]

Facts do not have to be convincing, they stand on their own as what they are.


And the specifics obviously were necessary even if you don't agree with them considering they drew added mentions.

Scandrick wasn't babied, he simply wasn't a first rounder and asked to man cover early on. By the same token he wasn't atrocious early on and Jenkins clearly was. For a 5th round pick, day 1 nickel duty is more than anyone can or should ask. He exceled there and never really had any issues until he was asked to play man coverage in the slots. He gave up some completions in those scenarios late in the season.

Jenkins was asked to cover early on and simply couldn't. He was getting lost on moves and then he was making sports center for his run support.... But late in the year Jenkins was starting outside and giving up next to nothing.

Facts might not have to be "convincing," but they should be somewhat close to the truth.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And if you're thrown at a lot and give up a lot of TDs you suck. I agree, not rocket surgery.

Its better than getting thrown at few times and giving up a lot of TDs. Its not how many times that you are thrown at that matters nor is it how many times you allow a TD --unless of course you gave up none;-- what matters here is THE RATE at which you give up TD differentiated by attempts.

You're the one that always crows about how QB rating has the highest correlation to winning and then you completely disregard that stat to focus on number of times targeted as if that demonstrates anything. If anything, an argument could be made that he held up admirably considering how many times he WAS targeted.

 

[theogt]

Its better than getting thrown at few times and giving up a lot of TDs. Its not how many times that you are thrown at that matters nor is it how many times you allow a TD --unless of course you gave up none;-- what matters here is THE RATE at which you give up TD differentiated by attempts.

You're the one that always crows about how QB rating has the highest correlation to winning and then you completely disregard that stat to focus on number of times targeted as if that demonstrates anything. If anything, an argument could be made that he held up admirably considering how many times he WAS targeted.

No, I didn't disregard QB rating here. Of the group Porter has the worst opponents' QB rating. In fact, I actually argue in this very thread that the best gauge is QB rating. Perhaps you just missed that.

Just because I point out that Porter was terrible in multiple categories doesn't mean I'm disregarding any one in particular.

 

[Vintage]

I think we are missing the overall, larger point..... which is...

Jenkins allowed a QB rating of 92.5

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I think we are missing the overall, larger point..... which is...

Jenkins allowed a QB rating of 92.5

he sucked

 

[theogt]

I think we are missing the overall, larger point..... which is...

Jenkins allowed a QB rating of 92.5

Assuming he's responsible for 3 touchdowns. I don't recall him giving up 3 touchdowns, but that may be true. His YPA and completion % were pretty good. If, say, he only gave up 1 touchdown, then he allowed a 78.3 QB rating.

 

[AdamJT13]

Its better than getting thrown at few times and giving up a lot of TDs. Its not how many times that you are thrown at that matters nor is it how many times you allow a TD --unless of course you gave up none;-- what matters here is THE RATE at which you give up TD differentiated by attempts.

I disagree. Touchdowns allowed can be like touchdowns scored often are -- more a function of opportunity and/or field position than ability or performance.

If you cover Larry Fitzgerald 1-on-1 on every play in a game, allowing him one catch for 2 yards out of five attempts is much better than allowing him 12 catches for 190 yards and one TD out of 15 attempts, even if that one 2-yard catch is for a touchdown.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I disagree. Touchdowns allowed can be like touchdowns scored often are -- more a function of opportunity and/or field position than ability or performance.

If you cover Larry Fitzgerald 1-on-1 on every play in a game, allowing him one catch for 2 yards out of five attempts is much better than allowing him 12 catches for 190 yards and one TD out of 15 attempts, even if that one 2-yard catch is for a touchdown.

he's not doubting that 0TDs given up is better than a great TD : attempt ratio

 

[AdamJT13]

Assuming he's responsible for 3 touchdowns. I don't recall him giving up 3 touchdowns, but that may be true. His YPA and completion % were pretty good. If, say, he only gave up 1 touchdown, then he allowed a 78.3 QB rating.

Tony Pisano (who tracked every cornerback for Fanball.com) had Jenkins allowing only two touchdowns and a 77.2 passer rating (23-for-38, 165 yards, two TDs, one interception).


By the way, that PFF site doesn't say it (from what I've seen), but it seems to count only the interceptions when a player was the one targeted. Either that, or they just forgot to include a bunch of interceptions.

 

[AdamJT13]

he's not doubting that 0TDs given up is better than a great TD : attempt ratio

That's not what I said. I didn't say anything about zero TDs allowed. I'm saying that for the most part, the number of touchdowns allowed aren't necessarily a reflection of performance or ability. You might play a horrible game and not allow a TD, or you might play a great game despite allowing a TD.

All other things being equal, for example, I'd MUCH rather have a cornerback who gets targeted 40 times and allows 18 catches for 180 yards and two touchdowns in a season than a cornerback who gets targeted 120 times and allows 80 catches for 1,000 yards and two touchdowns. Even though the second guy allowed only two touchdowns and had a MUCH better TDs-to-targets ratio, it's a virtual certainty that he cost his team much more than the first guy did and is far worse in coverage.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

That's not what I said. I didn't say anything about zero TDs allowed. I'm saying that for the most part, the number of touchdowns allowed aren't necessarily a reflection of performance or ability. You might play a horrible game and not allow a TD, or you might play a great game despite allowing a TD.

All other things being equal, for example, I'd MUCH rather have a cornerback who gets targeted 40 times and allows 18 catches for 180 yards and two touchdowns in a season than a cornerback who gets targeted 120 times and allows 80 catches for 1,000 yards and two touchdowns. Even though the second guy allowed only two touchdowns and had a MUCH better TDs-to-targets ratio, it's a virtual certainty that he cost his team much more than the first guy did and is far worse in coverage.

you are getting way ahead of yourself here, Adam

this argument is strictly about Porter likely to give up a TD as much as many of the other rookie corners

of course if you are targeted more, you are going to give up more yards and possibly a higher average, but alot of factors contribute to the discrepancy

 

[theogt]

Tony Pisano (who tracked every cornerback for Fanball.com) had Jenkins allowing only two touchdowns and a 77.2 passer rating (23-for-38, 165 yards, two TDs, one interception).


By the way, that PFF site doesn't say it (from what I've seen), but it seems to count only the interceptions when a player was the one targeted. Either that, or they just forgot to include a bunch of interceptions.

I went back and updated the INT numbers based on official stats in post 54.

 

[dogunwo]

Or brain science.

Thought I was the only one that caught that. But with Bob, you have to assume that was intentional

 

[AdamJT13]

you are getting way ahead of yourself here, Adam

this argument is strictly about Porter likely to give up a TD as much as many of the other rookie corners

Touchdowns allowed per game (according to PFF) --

.00 Chevis Jackson
.07 Orlando Scandrick
.11 Brandon Flowers
.19 Terrell Thomas
.20 Aqib Talib
.23 Mike Jenkins
.27 Antoine Cason
.31 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
.33 Leodis McKelvin
.40 Tracy Porter


Hmm, Porter looks more likely to give up a touchdown than any of the others.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Touchdowns allowed per game (according to PFF) --

.00 Chevis Jackson
.07 Orlando Scandrick
.11 Brandon Flowers
.19 Terrell Thomas
.20 Aqib Talib
.23 Mike Jenkins
.27 Antoine Cason
.31 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
.33 Leodis McKelvin
.40 Tracy Porter


Hmm, Porter looks more likely to give up a touchdown than any of the others.

I'm looking at TDs per attempt, it's more precise, since the number of attempts aren't the same for these CBs, and the attempts Porter faced are significantly higher than anyone else's

 

[theogt]

I'm looking at TDs per attempt, it's more precise, since the number of attempts aren't the same for these CBs, and the attempts Porter faced are significantly higher than anyone else's

That's fine, you can look at TDs per attempt. But you have to realize that he's going to get thrown at more often the other corners, so he's going to have many more attempts. Thus, many more TDs.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

That's fine, you can look at TDs per attempt. But you have to realize that he's going to get thrown at more often the other corners, so he's going to have many more attempts. Thus, many more TDs.

what would you qualify as "many more" TDs?

 

[theogt]

what would you qualify as "many more" TDs?

Touchdowns allowed per game (according to PFF):

.00 Chevis Jackson
.07 Orlando Scandrick
.11 Brandon Flowers
.19 Terrell Thomas
.20 Aqib Talib
.23 Mike Jenkins
.27 Antoine Cason
.31 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
.33 Leodis McKelvin
.40 Tracy Porter

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Touchdowns allowed per game (according to PFF):

.00 Chevis Jackson
.07 Orlando Scandrick
.11 Brandon Flowers
.19 Terrell Thomas
.20 Aqib Talib
.23 Mike Jenkins
.27 Antoine Cason
.31 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
.33 Leodis McKelvin
.40 Tracy Porter

you do realize that that's 1.4 TDs more than what DRC allowed?