2011 Cowboys vs 2007 Cowboys vs 2009 Cowboys

[Eskimo]

Hell, I didn't think we'd lose to Minnesota in 2010 either.

But that 2007 team was a lock for the Super Bowl in my eyes.

However, I remember creating a thread here entitled "You can slice it however you want" around the end of the season. Pretty much pointing out how they were getting stale and losing "it" factor. I was shot down immediately as a hater, etc.

Maybe, hopefully, possibly that is Green Bay this year. Although this year's Green Bay looks like a top ten, possibly top five team of all time.

I don't think it is so much that we lost "it".

Jim Johnson defended us tough in the rematch but he always does that.

The issue was TO's high ankle sprain at the end of the half against Carolina in week 16. I think we were up 20-0 at the half. We finished off Carolina barely in the second half and then we didn't show up against the Skins in the last week of the season once we had clinched everything so I won't count that game.

In the playoff game we didn't have TO to threaten everyone deep and loosen things up underneath. Also without TO being a threat outside our #2 WR was Crayton and #3 was Hurd. Terry Glenn was supposed to the #2 but was hurt all year and tried to play but was ineffective in the playoff game.

I really think we win that game against the Giants with a healthy TO.

 

[NextGenBoys]

Heck, they weren't even the greatest non championship team in the NFL that season... the Patriots were.

Hahahahahaha seriously.

 

[Eskimo]

I think you can make a reasonable argument that minus the QB, the Packers and the Cowboys offenses have a similar level of talent. They have an advantage at WR, we have an advantage at RB, it's a push a OL.

The difference is that Romo is playing a Pro-Bowl level this year and Aaron Rogers is playing like Zeus sitting on Mt Olympus as it relates to QB play.

In otherwords, Romo is playing great, however, Rogers is playing at a semi-deity level.

I think you are underestimating GB's OL. Rodgers often holds onto the ball for a long time waiting for a complex route to develop. That is why he takes so many sacks. I don't think he would be nearly as effective behind our OL. Look at our last two scoring drives against Miami - Romo was constantly under quick pressure and making throws under heavy duress.

 

[NextGenBoys]

I don't think it is so much that we lost "it".

Jim Johnson defended us tough in the rematch but he always does that.

The issue was TO's high ankle sprain at the end of the half against Carolina in week 16. I think we were up 20-0 at the half. We finished off Carolina barely in the second half and then we didn't show up against the Skins in the last week of the season once we had clinched everything so I won't count that game.

In the playoff game we didn't have TO to threaten everyone deep and loosen things up underneath. Also without TO being a threat outside our #2 WR was Crayton and #3 was Hurd. Terry Glenn was supposed to the #2 but was hurt all year and tried to play but was ineffective in the playoff game.

I really think we win that game against the Giants with a healthy TO.

All great points.

I just felt that while we won the Detroit game thanks to Jason Witten's post route, that game was the game where "it" just felt gone.

But no doubt all the points you brought up contributed greatly.

The game before when we played Green Bay was one of my all-time favorite regular season games.

 

[NextGenBoys]

The big difference between Green Bay and Dallas has been how productive and consistent their receivers have been.

You get Austin, Bryant, and Robinson, you have them not dropping balls, and you have Romo playing the way he is, and you throw in Jason Witten and a running game that is better than the Packer's, and you I think you have a different dynamic going on.

From a health stand point, the Packers have been much healthier than us, at least on offense.

Austin's return is going to be such a spark it will make his 2009 emergence look like a bic lighter.

Robinson + Austin + Bryant + Witten + Murray expands the field.

I think the difference is how good Rodgers is. He puts balls wherever he wants. Both of Romo's picks on Thursday, Rodgers doesn't throw those.

He can throw receivers open no matter what it seems. Romo is not playing on that level. When we run a back-shoulder stop on the 50 yardline for a 35 yard gain, maybe. But until then the receivers we have are no slouches, but Rodgers is the reason for the success IMO

 

[cowboyz]

TO injury did in that 2007 team

 

[The30YardSlant]

How can you possibly justify saying that? Other than wanting to blame Wade for everything.

I still want to know why that 2007 team would be considered more talented than this one.

Sean Lee
Dez Bryant
Laurent Robinson
Demarco Murray
Tyron Smith

None of those teams, 2007 or 2009, had these guys. They replace guys like Akin Ayodele, Patrick Crayton, Marion Barber, and Marc Colombo. People forget that Jacques Reeves had to start that 2007 year at corner.

Sure, some guys like Newman are older and not quite as good. We're also worse at center. Miles isn't as good as TO, but Miles + Dez is surely better than TO + Crayton. There are several lateral moves, like Hamlin for Elam, Flo for Free, etc.

But on the whole it sure looks to me like as a whole this team is more talented.

You talent evaluation leaves much to be desired then.

TO was playing at the top of his game, which means he was playing like a top 5 WR of all-time. Miles and Dez are very good, but they arent on that level yet. Even combined, TO at his best provided more.

Our offensive line was arguably the best in the NFL that year (as opposed to this year where it is one of the poorest). Columbo and Adams played GREAT, Smith wouldnt have even started on that team

Barber was playing like an elite running back and led the NFC in rushing TDs. Again, Murray wouldnt be starting.

Bradie James was in his prime, Ratliff, Ayodele and Spencer had very good years and we generated pressure regularly without the blitz. None of that applies to this year's team. Once again, one of the guys you listed (Lee) probably wouldnt have started as a rookie that season.

Romo played at a legendary level for the first 12 weeks or so.

It isnt even debatable, the 2007 was better physically than this year's group. They crumbled when it counted like Wade Phillips coached teams always do.

 

[perrykemp]

It makes a huge difference. It's harder to cover Austin/Bryant/Robinson than Bryant/Robinson.

Are you suggesting that the Cowboys' base offense should be 3WR/1TE/1RB?

Seems to fly against everything we've been seeing with Murray's success running behind Flametta.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

It isnt even debatable, the 2007 was better physically than this year's group.

:laugh2:

So lame, 30 yard. In your zeal to blame it all on the coach, you can't even see straight.

I started to go down every player that started that year, but there's no point as you're so unreasonable you can't even have a fair discussion about it. Mentioning things like Bradie James being in his prime, or saying Barber was better than Murray, or saying Lee wouldn't have started as a rookie (what does that even mean, Lee isn't a rookie now and even if he were he'd be vastly superior to Akin Ayodele) just shows that you're grasping at straws.

I notice you avoided things like Crayton vs Dez, Jacques Reeves vs. Jenkins or even Scandrick, etc.

 

[The30YardSlant]

:laugh2:

So lame, 30 yard. In your zeal to blame it all on the coach, you can't even see straight.

I started to go down every player that started that year, but there's no point as you're so unreasonable you can't even have a fair discussion about it. Mentioning things like Bradie James being in his prime, or saying Barber was better than Murray, or saying Lee wouldn't have started as a rookie (what does that even mean, Lee isn't a rookie now and even if he were he'd be vastly superior to Akin Ayodele) just shows that you're grasping at straws.

I notice you avoided things like Crayton vs Dez, Jacques Reeves vs. Jenkins or even Scandrick, etc.

Corner is the lone position at which it could be argued we were less talented that year, and yet this year's pass defense is statistically inferior to our 2007 version.

You seem to have forgotten much of 2007 if you don't believe Bradie and Barber were playing at a veryn strong level. Both were starters in the Probowl and both led the conference in a major statistical category.

The proof can be seen in the results. Prior to our late season nosedive, we were blowing bad teams out (and some good teams as well). Without Dan bailey, this year's team is probably 3-7 with four losses to under .500 teams.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Corner is the lone position at which it could be argued we were less talented that year

LOL. If you would take Ayodele-James over Lee-James/Brooking, Witten-Fasano over Witten-Bennett, Williams-Hamlin over Sensabaugh-Elam, and Barber-Julius over Murray-Felix, good luck. I doubt many NFL GMs would agree with you.

 

[Galian Beast]

Are you suggesting that the Cowboys' base offense should be 3WR/1TE/1RB?

Seems to fly against everything we've been seeing with Murray's success running behind Flametta.

Where is Fiammetta?

 

[realtick]

How can you possibly justify saying that? Other than wanting to blame Wade for everything.

I still want to know why that 2007 team would be considered more talented than this one.

Sean Lee
Dez Bryant
Laurent Robinson
Demarco Murray
Tyron Smith

None of those teams, 2007 or 2009, had these guys. They replace guys like Akin Ayodele, Patrick Crayton, Marion Barber, and Marc Colombo. People forget that Jacques Reeves had to start that 2007 year at corner.

Sure, some guys like Newman are older and not quite as good. We're also worse at center. Miles isn't as good as TO, but Miles + Dez is surely better than TO + Crayton. There are several lateral moves, like Hamlin for Elam, Flo for Free, etc.

But on the whole it sure looks to me like as a whole this team is more talented.

What does "talent" have to do with judging who is actually the better team on the field? You're making your judgements by the names you see on paper, not what's being shown on the field.

Dallas was "talented" last year too.

In 2007, the team was just clicking. 13-3 and we were playing dominant football. There was no anxiety when we played lesser teams thinking we'd get beat. We were rolling teams.

I think this year's team is starting to shape up into form but it remains to be seen how we finish this season. 2007 was four years ago and some of our current starters and contributors are now four years older (Kosier, James, Newman, Spears, et cetera).

 

[The30YardSlant]

LOL. If you would take Ayodele-James over Lee-James/Brooking, Witten-Fasano over Witten-Bennett, Williams-Hamlin over Sensabaugh-Elam, and Barber-Julius over Murray-Felix, good luck. I doubt many NFL GMs would agree with you.

Uh, Anthony Fasano is a much better player than Bennett. He has fit in very well in Miami. Hamlin had a strong year, and Barber was one of the best backs in the NFL that season. Felix isnt going to come close to matching Julius' production from that season.

 

[Eskimo]

How can you possibly justify saying that? Other than wanting to blame Wade for everything.

I still want to know why that 2007 team would be considered more talented than this one.

Sean Lee
Dez Bryant
Laurent Robinson
Demarco Murray
Tyron Smith

None of those teams, 2007 or 2009, had these guys. They replace guys like Akin Ayodele, Patrick Crayton, Marion Barber, and Marc Colombo. People forget that Jacques Reeves had to start that 2007 year at corner.

Sure, some guys like Newman are older and not quite as good. We're also worse at center. Miles isn't as good as TO, but Miles + Dez is surely better than TO + Crayton. There are several lateral moves, like Hamlin for Elam, Flo for Free, etc.

But on the whole it sure looks to me like as a whole this team is more talented.

I'll go roster spot by roster spot 2007 vs. 2011 on an ability basis for the current year (not talent or potential)

QB: wash - Romo has better judgment but is not as healthy
RB: Murray/Felix vs. Julius/Barber - small edge 2011, would be a large edge except for Barber's red zone running that year
FB: Wash, with Fiammetta gone
LT: Flo has a large edge here, handled all pass rushers with ease that year
LG: Kosier vs Holland large edge to 2007 team
C: Gigantic win for 2007 (Gurode vs. Costa).
RG: Bigg vs. Kosier: large edge for 2007
RT: Colombo vs. Tyron: slight edge for 2007
WR1: TO vs. Miles: Gigantic win for 2007 (All-pro vs guy on bench)
WR2: Crayton vs. Dez: win for 2011 but not a big one
WR3: Hurd vs. Robinson: Large win for 2011
TE: Witten - wash
TE2: Bennett vs. Fasano: small win for 2011 for blocking

Overall I'd call the offense skill positions a small edge to 2011 because TO's large edge at WR1 outweighs the wins at WR2/3 and RB. The OL goes to 2007 by a large margin because Flo and Bigg and Gurode were Pro Bowlers and Gurode was All-Pro that year and the other guys were solid. All we have are solid guys this year with no Pro Bowlers and one gigantic weakness at Center.

As a result, there is large overall advantage as the much better OL from 2007 is able to better use slightly lesser overall talent at the skill positions.

As for defense:

NT: Wash - Rat has more experience now but was more explosive then
LDE: Spears vs. Coleman - 2007 has the edge
RDE: Canty vs. Hatcher - this is an edge to 2007 but smaller than most think
WOLB: wash
WILB: Ayodele vs. Lee - large edge for 2011
SILB: James vs. James - moderate edge for 2007 as Bradie has lost a step
SOLB: Ellis vs. Spencer - moderage edge for 2007 mostly because Ellis was a great pass rusher which makes up for his inability in coverage
CB1: TNew vs. Jenkins - I'll give the edge to 2007 Tnew here but it is small
CB2: Henry vs. TNew - Edge to 2011 because Henry was hurt a fair bit
CB3: Reeves vs. Oscan - large edge to 2011 because Reeves was bad
SS: Sensabaugh vs. RW - edge to 2011 because Sensi is better in coverage
FS: Hamlin vs Elam - basically a wash

Overall the defense front 7 goes 4-1-2 for 2007 but the one win for 2011 was a large one for Lee while all the wins for 2007 squad were smalish. In the secondary it goes to 2011 3-1-1. Overall I would say the defense is a wash talent wise at 5-4-2 for 2011 but a large win at WILB and CB3 for 2011.

So in the end the defenses are close to a wash with a slight edge to the 2011 squad but the offense gets a large win for the 2007 squad by dominating at most of the OL positions.

 

[Eskimo]

Uh, Anthony Fasano is a much better player than Bennett. He has fit in very well in Miami. Hamlin had a strong year, and Barber was one of the best backs in the NFL that season. Felix isnt going to come close to matching Julius' production from that season.

Why compare Julius to Felix who has missed half the year? It is also unfair to directly compare the backs without taking into account the OLs they ran behind.

I think the combination of Murray and Felix is probably much better than Julius and Barber. The problem is the 2011 team has dealt with a bad OL and during the first part of the year Murray was slowly integrated into the game and Felix was recovering from a separated shoulder. In the second half of the season Murray has been the main back while Felix has been injured. We haven't really gotten a chance to see what Garrett can do with both of them healthy. I think we will find out against Arizona as Felix should be ready and Murray should be well rested.

I actually think history will show there was a large edge to the 2011 group that was masked behind a bad OL.

 

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

Columbo > Tyron? :laugh2:

Pass the pipe bro.

 

[Eskimo]

Columbo > Tyron? :laugh2:

Pass the pipe bro.

We''re not talking about potential.

I'm talking about how well they are playing in the respective year. Colombo was a very good RT in 2007.

Smith plays well at times and gets abused at times. He needed lots of help against Cameron Wake who was still very disruptive. I think he has given up around 7.5 sacks already this year and has committed several penalties.

Colombo 2007 was definitely a better overall player than Smith 2011.

 

[perrykemp]

We''re not talking about potential.

I'm talking about how well they are playing in the respective year. Colombo was a very good RT in 2007.

Smith plays well at times and gets abused at times. He needed lots of help against Cameron Wake who was still very disruptive. I think he has given up around 7.5 sacks already this year and has committed several penalties.

Colombo 2007 was definitely a better overall player than Smith 2011.

Agreed. Columbo was pretty darn good in 2007. Tyrone is having a decent year for a rookie OT -- but he has leveled out a bit.

Tyrone will shine in 2012 when they flip him to LT, his natural position.

 

[The Panch]

'07 by far. If not for "The Greatest team of all time", we might've started 13-0.


Either way, thru our first 12 games, we had what looked like one of the greatest teams in recent history. After beating Green Bay, I thought we were prime ready for a rematch with NE in the SB. We were outscoring opponents by a margin of 32.9 to 20.7 PPG (which included a 21 points L to the Pats) and Romo was on pace on to throw for 40+ TDs. He bailed us out at Detroit, but then fell apart against Philly.

I'll never forget that loss to the Giants. Im just glad they atleast beat the Pats.