2012 NBA Playoffs Thread

[MC KAos]

Why oh why can sports disagreements never be friendly disagreements?

Oh, and why are y'all using wins as your stat of choice for Duncan vs Kobe? I thought we were finally reaching the point where folks around here realized that wins are a very poor stat for the evaluation of individual players - in ANY sport - after all the Romo/Eli threads last year. Oh well.

i think thats partially true, but the one team sport where 1 player impacts the game immensely to the point of single handedly turning a team around is basketball, for example the cavs before and after lebron, and hell, the heat before and after lebron. specifically a great big man, because he draws doubles to help his O, and if he is good enough defensively, he can protect the paint and help his teammates out when they get beat, so, for instance, in the case of the spurs, players like ginobili and bowen could take more risks with steals and playing their man up close, because if they got burned, there was a good chance duncan would come in and contest any layup or close range shot attempt.

 

[Tricericon]

i think thats partially true, but the one team sport where 1 player impacts the game immensely to the point of single handedly turning a team around is basketball, for example the cavs before and after lebron, and hell, the heat before and after lebron. specifically a great big man, because he draws doubles to help his O, and if he is good enough defensively, he can protect the paint and help his teammates out when they get beat, so, for instance, in the case of the spurs, players like ginobili and bowen could take more risks with steals and playing their man up close, because if they got burned, there was a good chance duncan would come in and contest any layup or close range shot attempt.

A turnaround is not quite the same thing as straight up wins. If this offseason the Spurs traded Duncan to the Lakers for Kobe straight up, then next year the Spurs won ten more games than this year and the Lakers ten less, that would be strong evidence Kobe > Duncan. The same principle applies to other sports as well (for example, Bledsoe 5-13 vs Brady 14-3 over 2000 and 2001 is a very strong argument at the QB position that Brady > Bledsoe), and in fact I would consider it an even stronger argument than statistical superiority for comparison of players.

However, the reason that works is that with different players on the same team (or otherwise very similar teams such as 2001 Pats vs 2000 Pats) we basically have the quality of teammates already controlled for. For two players on entirely different teams, however, it just doesn't work.

Consider that the starting pitcher in baseball has even more impact on the outcome of his individual ball game than even a superstar NBA player has on his (by, I'd guess, 2:1), and yet pitcher W-L is pretty thoroughly discredited among the more serious analytical crowd for that sport. There are much better ways to argue for Duncan vs Kobe, or vice versa, than to use raw wins.

 

[MC KAos]

A turnaround is not quite the same thing as straight up wins. If this offseason the Spurs traded Duncan to the Lakers for Kobe straight up, then next year the Spurs won ten more games than this year and the Lakers ten less, that would be strong evidence Kobe > Duncan. The same principle applies to other sports as well (for example, Bledsoe 5-13 vs Brady 14-3 over 2000 and 2001 is a very strong argument at the QB position that Brady > Bledsoe), and in fact I would consider it an even stronger argument than statistical superiority for comparison of players.

However, the reason that works is that with different players on the same team (or otherwise very similar teams such as 2001 Pats vs 2000 Pats) we basically have the quality of teammates already controlled for. For two players on entirely different teams, however, it just doesn't work.

Consider that the starting pitcher in baseball has even more impact on the outcome of his individual ball game than even a superstar NBA player has on his (by, I'd guess, 2:1), and yet pitcher W-L is pretty thoroughly discredited among the more serious analytical crowd for that sport. There are much better ways to argue for Duncan vs Kobe, or vice versa, than to use raw wins.

basically its kind of like the WAR stat in baseball? that it only works with the same team around the player, because of the other factors that could come into play when it comes to wins/loses. i agree, you are correct! very good post!

but ultimately, it still makes me happy that among the 8 times in the almost 200 times a team has been up 3-1 and lost the series, you will see 2006 lakers.

 

[Tricericon]

but ultimately, it still makes me happy that among the 8 times in the almost 200 times a team has been up 3-1 and lost the series, you will see 2006 lakers.

Haha, fair enough!

 

[Danny White]

Why do you me?

I was watching the NBA before you were a glimmer in your dad's eye... Hell... I am probably older than your dad unless he started late...

Once upon a time, the Mavs didn't exist (believe it or not). I grew up watching the Spurs... George Gervin, Billy Paultz, James Silas, etc... They were from the old ABA... yeah... I was around to see that, too...

You jump on the bandwagon of the Lakers and you want to facepalm me? When I was growing up, Jabbar played for the Bucks... but you probably think he was a career Laker don't you... and yes, I remember when he changed his name from Lew Alcindor...

Spare me your facepalm crap and grow up. 3/4 of your posts aren't even worthy of a facepalm... Save your ******* 17 year old comments for someone else... I have kids older than you... and I CERTAINLY have forgotten more about the NBA than you will EVER know...

Once upon a time before you weren't here (yes, this board existed before you), I explained my whole allegiance to the Spurs and Mavs... so do a little research before you affirm the young fool you are...

I'm trying to figure out which is the bigger mismatch...

Spurs vs. Jazz

or

Trickblue vs. C&L Fan

:

 

[MC KAos]

lol @ Rondo! trying to be CP3 and fails miserably!

 

[casmith07]

Why do you me?

I was watching the NBA before you were a glimmer in your dad's eye... Hell... I am probably older than your dad unless he started late...

Once upon a time, the Mavs didn't exist (believe it or not). I grew up watching the Spurs... George Gervin, Billy Paultz, James Silas, etc... They were from the old ABA... yeah... I was around to see that, too...

You jump on the bandwagon of the Lakers and you want to facepalm me? When I was growing up, Jabbar played for the Bucks... but you probably think he was a career Laker don't you... and yes, I remember when he changed his name from Lew Alcindor...

Spare me your facepalm crap and grow up. 3/4 of your posts aren't even worthy of a facepalm... Save your ******* 17 year old comments for someone else... I have kids older than you... and I CERTAINLY have forgotten more about the NBA than you will EVER know...

Once upon a time before you weren't here (yes, this board existed before you), I explained my whole allegiance to the Spurs and Mavs... so do a little research before you affirm the young fool you are...

aw snap!

 

[MC KAos]

i dont know what the hell is wrong with gasol, struggling to score on a guy 6 or 7 inches shorter than him! but i hope it continues!

 

[MC KAos]

Cedric Golden ‏ @CedGolden
Anyone who points to Bynum's youth as an excuse for his behavior...remember, this is his seventh year. Time to grow up, kid.

Bomani Jones ‏ @bomani_jones
what goes through andrew bynum's mind? is he going through something?

Jim Rome ‏ @jimrome
Down 12? Getting booed at home? Guess these close out games aren't so easy after all, eh, Andy?

 

[MC KAos]

someone might want to let the nuggets know that that kobe bryant guy is pretty good! maybe not leave him wide open

 

[MC KAos]

i just COMPLETELY missed the second half under in the last 2 minutes of game time!

 

[Danny White]

Sweet... love watching the Lakers lose.

Hope this one goes to 7 games now.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Sitting here packing and forgot the Denver was leading at the half. Clicked on ESPN to see the last second tick off.

3-2.

Can Kobe recapture the magic of the 2006 playoffs????

 

[MC KAos]

hey, look on the bright side lakers fans, at least ron artest wont miss the second round!

 

[MC KAos]

Sitting here packing and forgot the Denver was leading at the half. Clicked on ESPN to see the last second tick off.

3-2.

Can Kobe recapture the magic of the 2006 playoffs????

 

[MC KAos]

and im gonna say this one more time!

the western conference >>>>> eastern conference!

its like the AFL vs the NFL in the late 60's!

 

[TonyRomoRules]

I just want to say GO OKC THUNDER!!!!

 

[Biggems]

How is it true? Kobe already proved he could win without Shaq. He won two NBA championships without him while Shaq only won one. Kobe took a horrible Lakers team to the playoffs twice in a row so how did he not drag the team to the playoffs in his prime? How was the West atrocious? The Spurs were still there as was Dallas and Phoenix. Those teams weren't as good as the Lakers. Also @ Duncan winning the title by himself in 2003 did you really forget about Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, David Robinson, and the fact they were playing a horrible Nets team in the Finals?

I recall 2 playoff series against Phoenix....both of which the Lakers were eliminated, in the post-Shaq era....where Kobe was absolutely passive in the 4th quarter of the close out games. He wouldn't shoot, he was non-aggressive, he was very un-Kobelike. It happened two separate years. It upset me cause, he never plays this way against the Spurs.....yet against the Suns, he can basically quit.... Now this was the time when he was having it out with Kupchak and Jackson about the direction of the team, but still, no excuse to play like he did in those two closeout games.

He will never, ever be on the same level as Michael Jordan, ever.....MJ would have never not played balls out in any game....especially in the 4th quarter of closeout games.

 

[Biggems]

I'm trying to figure out which is the bigger mismatch...

Spurs vs. Jazz

or

Trickblue vs. C&L Fan

:

At least the Jazz closed within 4 in the closing minutes of the final game.....if this was the Grand Prize game from the Bozo Show...C&L fan would still be trying to hit the first bucket, while trickblue would be pedaling away on his new Schwinn with a load of prizes on his back.

 

[SkinsandTerps]

Biggems, correct that post.

It should read "C&L backpeddling"...somewhere in there.