3-4 Base DEF now most popular in NFL

[CowboysFaninHouston]

How so?

Last year:

• TJ Watt had 863 defensive snaps....857 of them were on the DL, 3 deeper in the box... 855 of those were lined up outside the tackle...48 snaps in coverage
• Micah Parsons had 707 snaps....665 were on the DL, 42 were deeper in the box...599 outside the tackle, 52 over the tackle, 14 down in the B gap...7 snaps in coverage
• Myles Garrett had 859 snaps.....859 were on the DL.....831 were outside the tackle, 24 over the tackle, 4 down in the B gap....0 snaps in coverage

3 dominant edge players in 3 different systems....all pretty much used the same ways once you remove the labels. The differences are pretty slim.

Quinnen Williams with the Jets and Cowboys was mostly a B gap player. The Cowboys moved him around a bit more than the Jets did, but the assignments were mostly the same. Just looking at the Cowboys roster from last year....Clowney has played in both systems, so has Clark, so has fowler, So has Thomas. I doubt EZ or Houston would have much issue transitioning to either scheme.

I think the days of showing up to the draft and saying "Thats a 3-4 guy so lets pick this other player" are long gone.

Good write up.

Very true. There is no pure this. Or pure that. It's about disguising and causing confusion with as many looks as possible. And putting players where they excel.
The main differences between 3-4 and 4-3 is gap assignme tand if the rusher has hands on the ground or rush standing up. Subtle but different angles and lines of attack

 

[75boyz]

However you want to break it down in numerical titles is one thing.
My concerns are EZ's and Clowneys ability to drop into short zone and the ability to acquire the 2nd level offball linebackers required to improve that mess that was the linebacker black hole of last year.

I'm gonna add in some rare speculative optimism on Parker being able to coordinate a functioning secondary as a complimentary unit behind the 'backers.

They gotta get a 1 and a 1a linebackers duo imo to make this thing really work.

After that, the defense's scheme number titles would more clearly resemble a hybrid of many different but hopefully effective moving parts.

jmo

 

[jterrell]

There is no such thing as a 3-4 base anymore.

Do the math. The base is nickel for every team in the league which means you only have 6 guys up front.

There are odd fronts and even fronts, but it isn't 1999 anymore.
Almost every team is multiple in alignment.

 

[Majic]

There is no such thing as a 3-4 base anymore.

Do the math. The base is nickel for every team in the league which means you only have 6 guys up front.

There are odd fronts and even fronts, but it isn't 1999 anymore.
Almost every team is multiple in alignment.

Would you mind commenting on my original post below:

1) The 'player type' in terms of measurables is different between the two
2) The coaching staff you need is different between the two.

49ers fans on their forums are already speculating on looking at different players in the draft as they move away from a standard 4-3 front.. Draft approach completely different.

 

[thunderpimp91]

However you want to break it down in numerical titles is one thing.
My concerns are EZ's and Clowneys ability to drop into short zone and the ability to acquire the 2nd level offball linebackers required to improve that mess that was the linebacker black hole of last year.

I'm gonna add in some rare speculative optimism on Parker being able to coordinate a functioning secondary as a complimentary unit behind the 'backers.

They gotta get a 1 and a 1a linebackers duo imo to make this thing really work.

After that, the defense's scheme number titles would more clearly resemble a hybrid of many different but hopefully effective moving parts.

jmo

I wonder how much these guys will really be expected to drop into coverage. Last year Ez, Williams, and Houston all dropped into coverage on about 10% of their passing snaps. Its not a huge sample size, but Ez actually did fairly well. It seems like most teams running a 3-4 have a 10% drop guy and then a 20-25% drop guy. A few exceptions in guys like Van Ginkle and Barron Browning who were closer to 50/50 rush vs drop players.

Part of me wonders if the Overshown playing more edge isnt part of the solution to this too. He may be more of your drop guy who is that 50/50 player.

 

[shabazz]

Personally, Ima wait till I see the final defensive roster before debating this because im not wasting my time with it if we're still fielding players like Murray, Sanborn, Elam and Wilson as part of a system and personnel grouping.

Buy i dont begrudge anybody else doing it especially during the offseason

 

[75boyz]

I wonder how much these guys will really be expected to drop into coverage. Last year Ez, Williams, and Houston all dropped into coverage on about 10% of their passing snaps. Its not a huge sample size, but Ez actually did fairly well. It seems like most teams running a 3-4 have a 10% drop guy and then a 20-25% drop guy. A few exceptions in guys like Van Ginkle and Barron Browning who were closer to 50/50 rush vs drop players.

Part of me wonders if the Overshown playing more edge isnt part of the solution to this too. He may be more of your drop guy who is that 50/50 player.

I thought on that too TP but putting the eggs into that basket of Overshown being the War Daddy is thin ice sledding imo. I can't do it based off Overshowns hopeful return to pre injury form alone. Then you add in Ez's hopeful growth as a true get home edge along with a hopeful resigning of Clowney is a lot of hope. And hope aint a strategy.
I believe in EZ's natural athleticism to hold up in occasional short zone coverage. Clowney, okay too, but just for now as he was the best actual pass rusher last year.

So, pass rush wise...Rotate Overshown occasionally on an exotic safety type edge blitz? Yes. As the Micah type alfa dog? No.
My preference is still a strong FA edge presence added to go along with 2 drafted offball linebackers.

Williams and Houston are overall net negatives in my amateur eyes.
I want 2 starting linebackers . I think 2 sideline to sideline guys properly utilized would make a huge impact.
Heck, I'd even draft 3 LBs if available, lol.

 

[thunderpimp91]

I thought on that too TP but putting the eggs into that basket of Overshown being the War Daddy is thin ice sledding imo. I can't do it based off Overshowns hopeful return to pre injury form alone. Then you add in Ez's hopeful growth as a true get home edge along with a hopeful resigning of Clowney is a lot of hope. And hope aint a strategy.
I believe in EZ's natural athleticism to hold up in occasional short zone coverage. Clowney, okay too, but just for now as he was the best actual pass rusher last year.

So, pass rush wise...Rotate Overshown occasionally on an exotic safety type edge blitz? Yes. As the Micah type alfa dog? No.
My preference is still a strong FA edge presence added to go along with 2 drafted offball linebackers.

Williams and Houston are overall net negatives in my amateur eyes.
I want 2 linebackers . Heck even 3.

I fully agree that the best solution is to go get a dominant edge to pair with this interior group....maybe we will get a developmental one in the draft, but I'm not holding my breath on the Cowboys bringing in a top free agent edge.

I'm guessing itll be more of an edge by committee situation. I certainly hope the Cowboys dont view Overshown as an every down player, but that seems to be how the Cowboys operate. I'd be really excited if they acquired enough talent along the front 7 where Overshown can be a situational chess piece that can line up at all over the field.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I certainly hope the Cowboys dont view Overshown as an every down player, but that seems to be how the Cowboys operate.

Why do you say that?

 

[thunderpimp91]

Why do you say that?

Because he hasn't shown the ability to stay on the field. 3 seasons and only 19 games to show for it. Especially if they are going to use him as an occasional edge player he likely needs a snap count. Depending on him for 1000+ snaps feels like a low probability win. Filling the front 7 with other capable starters and letting Overshown move around as needed rotating in for 600-700 snaps feels like a recipe for success.

 

[DuncanIso]

4-2-5 base

 

[75boyz]

I fully agree that the best solution is to go get a dominant edge to pair with this interior group....maybe we will get a developmental one in the draft, but I'm not holding my breath on the Cowboys bringing in a top free agent edge.

I'm guessing itll be more of an edge by committee situation. I certainly hope the Cowboys dont view Overshown as an every down player, but that seems to be how the Cowboys operate. I'd be really excited if they acquired enough talent along the front 7 where Overshown can be a situational chess piece that can line up at all over the field.

Exactly, as he should be utilized.
My pipe dream fantasy involves the so called break budget contracts of 2...
and that they be used on edge and LT.

Like I said, pipe dream.
ALL the other contract numbers that need to be worked out just to be able to field a competitive team gives me pause knowing this front office's cap management history.

It could easily be done but I have no confidence in the FO making logical future contract decisions.

The upcoming free agency window will show us if anything has changed with this team in that regard.

 

[plasticman]

Is the term "base defense" even relevant in today's NFL?

There are so many situational packages that it seems rare whenever teams actually use a traditional 3-4-4 or 4-3-4(DL-LB-DB).

In today's NFL, defensive rosters must be flexible enough to react to multiple offensive fronts. I have seen defenses in 5-2-4, 4-2-5, 5-1-5, etc.

The NFL defenses of today use a variety of "tweeners". We have seen LBers take on the role of EDGE and safeties take on the role of LBer.

OCs and DCs are constantly engaged in a chess game where each attempt to find a solution to what the other presents on the field.

This is the reason why smart drafting and free agent acquisition involves more than just talent level. They must possess the proper skill sets to be compatible to team needs.

Being an All-Pro for one team doesn't necessarily mean the same level of performance for the different style defense of another team.

One thing I do understand. Micah Parsons would be the perfect OLB for a 3-4 defense. His elite speed, pass rushing ability and pursuit in traffic are practically tailor-made for a 3-4 defense.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

However you want to break it down in numerical titles is one thing.
My concerns are EZ's and Clowneys ability to drop into short zone and the ability to acquire the 2nd level offball linebackers required to improve that mess that was the linebacker black hole of last year.

I'm gonna add in some rare speculative optimism on Parker being able to coordinate a functioning secondary as a complimentary unit behind the 'backers.

They gotta get a 1 and a 1a linebackers duo imo to make this thing really work.

After that, the defense's scheme number titles would more clearly resemble a hybrid of many different but hopefully effective moving parts.

jmo

So it's half a dozen of one and 6 of the other. You put a LB that can drop into.coverage then you lose some pass rush ability.

I do like clow money and Eze as pass rushing OLBs and Clooney would be wild card by allowing DL to start with one alignment and the shift to clow ey moving to DE in a 4-3. And same with Eze...

And that makes it critical to find a good safety that can cover and also play closer to the line for run support. Luckily this draft has quite a few safties.

The safety becomes a chess piece you move around.

Also the two allow us to go from 3-4 to a 5-2 kind of a look and vice versa.

The key is keeping offense guessing and looking for that one spot on offense that misses their assignment.

 

[gimmesix]

How so?

Last year:

• TJ Watt had 863 defensive snaps....857 of them were on the DL, 3 deeper in the box... 855 of those were lined up outside the tackle...48 snaps in coverage
• Micah Parsons had 707 snaps....665 were on the DL, 42 were deeper in the box...599 outside the tackle, 52 over the tackle, 14 down in the B gap...7 snaps in coverage
• Myles Garrett had 859 snaps.....859 were on the DL.....831 were outside the tackle, 24 over the tackle, 4 down in the B gap....0 snaps in coverage

3 dominant edge players in 3 different systems....all pretty much used the same ways once you remove the labels. The differences are pretty slim.

Quinnen Williams with the Jets and Cowboys was mostly a B gap player. The Cowboys moved him around a bit more than the Jets did, but the assignments were mostly the same. Just looking at the Cowboys roster from last year....Clowney has played in both systems, so has Clark, so has fowler, So has Thomas. I doubt EZ or Houston would have much issue transitioning to either scheme.

I think the days of showing up to the draft and saying "Thats a 3-4 guy so lets pick this other player" are long gone.

48 snaps in coverage is quite a bit more than 7 or 0, though. Whoever your primary pass rusher is, you are not going to use him in coverage much, but when you use odd fronts, you've got to drop them some to keep the offenses honest. You can't rush five on every down or always drop the other linebacker into coverage.

Frankly, selecting Watt vs. Taco was the difference in the two systems. There were questions about Watt's ability/size as a 4-3 end that caused him to go as late as he did.

We selected Parsons as a linebacker, then found out that he needed to pretty much be a full-time pass rusher because of his ability. He would have been better used in a 3-4 system, because on early downs he would have been a (stand-up) OLB, which may have helped him avoid some of the attempts by offenses to lean on him and wear him down vs. the run.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't have primarily been a DE in nickel sets since teams have to run nickel most of the time. It's just that certain body types/sizes are a better fit for using some 3-4 or 5-2. Your DE/OLB has more room to move instead of being lined up directly against the OT and often gets to take on tight ends instead of tackles even against the run.

I think using some odd fronts does better suit Eze and Houston because they are smaller players who need to be able to line up wide and avoid tangling with OTs as much as possible in the run game. That doesn't mean coordinators aren't going to have OTs lean on them, though, because they want to take advantage of the size advantage and also take their legs out from under them.

 

[gimmesix]

From what I have read it'll almost be like a 3-3-5. The Cowboys will mix and match the five man fronts. Sometimes 3 DT's and 2 edge/LBs, sometimes 4 DL, a LB and a safety, and so on.

It's a 5 man front in terms of numbers but not necessarily 5 DL fronts. It's about being multiple and not static like Eberflus was.

I think we'll see a lot of Williams-Clark-Odighizuwa, though, when we use a five-man line. These are our three big (and costly) defensive tackles and possibly our three best players right now on defense. Maybe we could go with those three and Eze with Overshown being the LB or fifth "lineman" since we know he has blitz capabilities. That would be the 4 DL and an LB that you mentioned.

It'll be interesting to see what Parker comes up with.

 

[beware_d-ware]

The difference between 3-4 and 4-3 is a lot more subtle than it used to be, and in some defenses, there's not really a difference at all.

The biggest change is usually that the strong-side DE kicks inside and shades inside the tackle's shoulder, rather than the traditional 4-3 alignment outside the tackle's shoulder. Some teams like the Steelers will sub in a penetrating DT for this role, and essentially play with a 1-tech and two 3-techs. You trade that outside edge rush for more solid run stopping inside - but that's usually as much pass rush as a modern NFL defense can afford to trade off.

The two schemes are far more alike than they are different today. It's not Vince Wilfork vs Warren Sapp any more.

 

[75boyz]

So it's half a dozen of one and 6 of the other. You put a LB that can drop into.coverage then you lose some pass rush ability.

I do like clow money and Eze as pass rushing OLBs and Clooney would be wild card by allowing DL to start with one alignment and the shift to clow ey moving to DE in a 4-3. And same with Eze...

And that makes it critical to find a good safety that can cover and also play closer to the line for run support. Luckily this draft has quite a few safties.

The safety becomes a chess piece you move around.

Also the two allow us to go from 3-4 to a 5-2 kind of a look and vice versa.

The key is keeping offense guessing and looking for that one spot on offense that misses their assignment.

Yep CFIH,
It's a symptom of having overdosed on watching Murray, Sanborn and friends last year so I am probably over compensating at linebacker, lol.

I haven't looked far enough at safety draft prospects past Downs so I can't give ya an inelligent alternative option just yet as Downs prolly goes before 12.

But yes I'm all aboard with Parker doing some form of hybrid/disguise with a bunch of multi tooled linebacker types.

I know, I'm dreaming most likely with these suggestions but Ima go big or go home kinda guy after witnessing the Pats do their worst to first demonstration this year.

 

[thunderpimp91]

48 snaps in coverage is quite a bit more than 7 or 0, though. Whoever your primary pass rusher is, you are not going to use him in coverage much, but when you use odd fronts, you've got to drop them some to keep the offenses honest. You can't rush five on every down or always drop the other linebacker into coverage.

Sort of, but 48 snaps over the 15 games Watt played is around 3 snaps per game. Its just not a massive change whatsoever. I don't have the numbers but I would also bet that these are early down plays that guys like Watt are dropping out. Teams run odd fronts primarily to stop the run. When you get into nickel on 3rd and 9 everyone in the stadium knows TJ Watt is rushing the passer.

Frankly, selecting Watt vs. Taco was the difference in the two systems. There were questions about Watt's ability/size as a 4-3 end that caused him to go as late as he did.

Agreed, but this is horrific thinking and what teams are starting to move away from. As mentioned above Watt, Garrett, and Parsons are all playing pretty similar alignments outside the tackle up on the LOS.

We selected Parsons as a linebacker, then found out that he needed to pretty much be a full-time pass rusher because of his ability. He would have been better used in a 3-4 system, because on early downs he would have been a (stand-up) OLB, which may have helped him avoid some of the attempts by offenses to lean on him and wear him down vs. the run.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't have primarily been a DE in nickel sets since teams have to run nickel most of the time. It's just that certain body types/sizes are a better fit for using some 3-4 or 5-2. Your DE/OLB has more room to move instead of being lined up directly against the OT and often gets to take on tight ends instead of tackles even against the run.

I think using some odd fronts does better suit Eze and Houston because they are smaller players who need to be able to line up wide and avoid tangling with OTs as much as possible in the run game. That doesn't mean coordinators aren't going to have OTs lean on them, though, because they want to take advantage of the size advantage and also take their legs out from under them.

This is where I really disagree...but plenty of people think I'm wrong on the subject so I'm open to different arguments.
Andrew Van Ginkle is a 3-4 Edge player who is 6'4" 242lbs
Will Anderson is a 4-3 Edge player who is 6'3" 240lbs

For the bigger guys
Myles Garrett is a 4-3 edge listed at 6'4" 272lbs but you still have plenty of massive 3-4 edge players like Bradley Chubb 6'4" 275lbs and Joey Bosa at 6'5" 280lbs

Teams are taking guys of all shapes and sizes and implementing them into whatever scheme they have these days. The big reason why is that teams are 2 gap defenses more situationally than as base philosophies. Its why a Quinnen Williams fits just fine into either scheme.....hes going to be a B gap player he just may line up slightly wider in 4I than he would as a 4-3 3T. With 5 DB packages being the norm I just don't think teams are as hard lined on going after certain body types to fit the 4-3/3-4 molds. Instead they've just made odd front defenses that function similar to 4-3s.

 

[Majic]

Sort of, but 48 snaps over the 15 games Watt played is around 3 snaps per game. Its just not a massive change whatsoever. I don't have the numbers but I would also bet that these are early down plays that guys like Watt are dropping out. Teams run odd fronts primarily to stop the run. When you get into nickel on 3rd and 9 everyone in the stadium knows TJ Watt is rushing the passer.

Agreed, but this is horrific thinking and what teams are starting to move away from. As mentioned above Watt, Garrett, and Parsons are all playing pretty similar alignments outside the tackle up on the LOS.


This is where I really disagree...but plenty of people think I'm wrong on the subject so I'm open to different arguments.
Andrew Van Ginkle is a 3-4 Edge player who is 6'4" 242lbs
Will Anderson is a 4-3 Edge player who is 6'3" 240lbs

For the bigger guys
Myles Garrett is a 4-3 edge listed at 6'4" 272lbs but you still have plenty of massive 3-4 edge players like Bradley Chubb 6'4" 275lbs and Joey Bosa at 6'5" 280lbs

Teams are taking guys of all shapes and sizes and implementing them into whatever scheme they have these days. The big reason why is that teams are 2 gap defenses more situationally than as base philosophies. Its why a Quinnen Williams fits just fine into either scheme.....hes going to be a B gap player he just may line up slightly wider in 4I than he would as a 4-3 3T. With 5 DB packages being the norm I just don't think teams are as hard lined on going after certain body types to fit the 4-3/3-4 molds. Instead they've just made odd front defenses that function similar to 4-3s.

Isn't it about the ability as to whether the edge player can drop back or not. Can Garrett do this well? I doubt it hence he is not a fit in a 3-4. Lawrence struggled with this in Mike Nolan's scheme. My point being when drafted we gave up a 2nd for him, but teams like Steelers (3-4 scheme) would deem that price too high.
Goes back to my original post that I still believe a draft board/free agency list is constructed on what scheme is your base. Even when this is only used 20% of the time