40 Years of Bad Teams with Top 10 QB

[PA Cowboy Fan]

To believe this, you have to believe that unfair criticism does not exist. And it obviously does.

For the most part, I don't think it does. If he was winning playoff games, nobody would care. I'm not saying it's all his fault but he's had his share of bad blunders.

 

[Idgit]

Honest question.

I think this was a Garrett decision as explaining away bad defenses in 2011 and 2012. I just don't see Jerry having a strong "philosophy" nor breakdown failure to that.

What makes you think it wasn't a Garret move? or at least >50% garrett drive?

It doesn't really matter, does it? If Jerry didn't like Rob, then Garrett erred in bringing him into the organization originally. Even if Jerry forced the change downward we still false-started at what was the most important hire on the staff at that point. If it was Jason's idea to make the switch, then he double-clutched and then still made a weird hire.

I don't know what really went down with the defensive decisions. With a gun to my head, I'd say we took a chance on Rob, Jerry really didn't like him and forced the change. Garrett didn't have choice but to acquiesce, and we then made the decision to go in a simpler plug-and-play direction in part because of the new CBA. We made a weird hire in Kiffin because Garrett-Jerry-Lacewell all had a connection there and because Marinelli was coming along for the ride. Realized a year too late that we should have just had Monte take the back seat to begin with, and now, finally, have something that should be workable by way of a defensive coaching staff. Meanwhile, we've spent two #1 picks on interior OL positions and a #2 on a backup TE--all of which positions can be filled adequately later in the draft, and we're desperately short on defensive talent.

Now...that said, we did go BPA given how the boards broke, so I'm not complaining about that. And I do think that Garrett's got a good track record in Dallas of adequately addressing position group problems when he's got the resources to do so. I do think he's the right guy to finish the work by finally fixing the defense. It's just taken a lot longer to get sufficient talent and stable coaching than it really should have. And that's unfortunate, because it's cost us a couple playoff berths the last two seasons.

 

[DallasEast]

Tony Romo should be criticized. The amount of criticism Romo receives is greatly disproportional to what the overall criticism expressly states or implies. It is not logical.

 

[Idgit]

For the most part, I don't think it does. If he was winning playoff games, nobody would care. I'm not saying it's all his fault but he's had his share of bad blunders.

Yeah, but that's because people don't complain when you're winning. That's independent of the guy's actual performance. Good QB play correlates with winning football, but not perfectly.

Same goes for coaches, or owners, or GMs, or other high-profile players. Winning is deodorant. It doesn't mean your pits aren't stinky to start with.

 

[CCBoy]

It doesn't really matter, does it? If Jerry didn't like Rob, then Garrett erred in bringing him into the organization originally. Even if Jerry forced the change downward we still false-started at what was the most important hire on the staff at that point. If it was Jason's idea to make the switch, then he double-clutched and then still made a weird hire.

I don't know what really went down with the defensive decisions. With a gun to my head, I'd say we took a chance on Rob, Jerry really didn't like him and forced the change. Garrett didn't have choice but to acquiesce, and we then made the decision to go in a simpler plug-and-play direction in part because of the new CBA. We made a weird hire in Kiffin because Garrett-Jerry-Lacewell all had a connection there and because Marinelli was coming along for the ride. Realized a year too late that we should have just had Monte take the back seat to begin with, and now, finally, have something that should be workable by way of a defensive coaching staff. Meanwhile, we've spent two #1 picks on interior OL positions and a #2 on a backup TE--all of which positions can be filled adequately later in the draft, and we're desperately short on defensive talent.

Now...that said, we did go BPA given how the boards broke, so I'm not complaining about that. And I do think that Garrett's got a good track record in Dallas of adequately addressing position group problems when he's got the resources to do so. I do think he's the right guy to finish the work by finally fixing the defense. It's just taken a lot longer to get sufficient talent and stable coaching than it really should have. And that's unfortunate, because it's cost us a couple playoff berths the last two seasons.

On decisions such as major changes in directions, or franchise affecting selections that affect three to four years in consideration, well, Jerry is a very well informed evaluator and seeks top knowledge in and out of the current NFL for opinions. He gathers a ton of supporting information, and then takes the decision process to his Coaching heads of the team.

On the decisional levels, it is based upon imput from around the horn.

In areas such as this, Jerry really isn't half assed. To thing other wise is not being informed, or naïve by an observer.

As to Kiffin specificly, when installing a style of defense, the old source for just that is usefull in instilling concepts and technical details on how that system works and becomes integrated. On that basis alone, it was an informed approach.

That was with a picture of a stable group of linemen, projecting when he arrived, that could both function and carry the changes into team memory and effect. But that group of defensive linemen all disappeared in one fell swoop, and just as when Jason Garrett had to walk through a tough period of adjustment on the offensive line, the defensive line had to go through a crash course.

This then made it the intelligent course of action, to instill the person to best lead this 'adjusted' picture of a long termed progression, to a young and longer projecting person. But Kiffin was kept on staff to protect an oversight needed through a focus on players and techniques, in parallel to an overview of scheme function. Not a foolish move in and of itself.

 

[percyhoward]

For the most part, I don't think it does. If he was winning playoff games, nobody would care. I'm not saying it's all his fault but he's had his share of bad blunders.

I'm curious to know what the OP made you think--about the team, not about me.

 

[PA Cowboy Fan]

I'm curious to know what the OP made you think--about the team, not about me.

Okay fair enough. I apologize if I was rude. I just get tired of the same threads all the time. Maybe I should stay out of them. lol I do agree with some of what you say. I've been saying this team needs a running game for years. Clearly a running game would help this offense and not just in clean up time. I also think it would take a lot of pressure off of Romo. I'm hoping with this good offensive line that the running game will finally be a factor. The defense needs serious help. It seems like every year it gets worse. I've never said that they didn't share a lot of the blame for what's happened with this team. I don't think changing coordinators every year is good for this team either. I don't have high hopes for it this year either. I never said that Romo is totally responsible. I only said that he shares blame because of his ill advised turnovers and not showing up big in elimination games. If he would have done that and we still lost because of something else, I wouldn't have much problem with him. I stood by Danny White even when most fans turned against him. I just don't have much confidence in him and I think by the time this team is fixed we'll have a new QB. Hopefully he'll prove me wrong. As for why we continue to struggle, many things are at play but I think the biggest obstacle is Jerry Jones. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

A possible amendment to the U.S. Constitution: That the name Romo shall never appear with other names such as Marino, Aikman, Montana, Favre, Brady et. al, and any other's whose team won a Lombardini trophy or whose team won more than 2 career playoff games.

notice how I included the word "team" twice to make sure I don't get "one player does not win a Super Bowl/playoff game" nonsense.

 

[percyhoward]

Okay fair enough. I apologize if I was rude. I just get tired of the same threads all the time. Maybe I should stay out of them. lol I do agree with some of what you say. I've been saying this team needs a running game for years. Clearly a running game would help this offense and not just in clean up time. I also think it would take a lot of pressure off of Romo. I'm hoping with this good offensive line that the running game will finally be a factor. The defense needs serious help. It seems like every year it gets worse. I've never said that they didn't share a lot of the blame for what's happened with this team. I don't think changing coordinators every year is good for this team either. I don't have high hopes for it this year either. I never said that Romo is totally responsible. I only said that he shares blame because of his ill advised turnovers and not showing up big in elimination games. If he would have done that and we still lost because of something else, I wouldn't have much problem with him. I stood by Danny White even when most fans turned against him. I just don't have much confidence in him and I think by the time this team is fixed we'll have a new QB. Hopefully he'll prove me wrong. As for why we continue to struggle, many things are at play but I think the biggest obstacle is Jerry Jones. That's my opinion anyway.

No offense taken. From the OP I think it's safe to conclude that this team overachieved the last three seasons by reaching 8 wins, and that it wouldn't have happened with a QB who ranked lower than top 10.

In that light, it doesn't make sense to harp on the 9th win that never came. It never came for any of those QB--not even the Hall of Famers.

 

[jobberone]

I sort of agree, but, really, Garrett's been here long enough to be very much responsible for our defensive performances. Some of the failure on that side of the ball was injuries the last two years, but not all of it. He's screwed that up, one way or another, and it's probably cost him two NFCE crowns.

If you put the blame on Jerry as well as Garrett then I'm with you. I'm still of the mind Jerry and the scouting department are acquiring talent although the coaches get thrown into the mix because they do have input. I don't really care about blame anyway so I'm certainly not interested in assigning a ratio of blame for Jerry and Garrett. They're all rowing the same boat.

The need to get the defense doing its job before you lose Romo and your window for now. Not going to give the offense a pass because it has its own problems that need to be addressed but the defense is the bigger anchor.

 

[jobberone]

Since 1970, 440 QB have ranked in the top 10. 330 times, their defense has ranked higher than 20th. (75%) If your QB ranks in the top 10, there's a 75% chance your pass defense will rank better than 20th.

Since 1970, 449 pass defenses have ranked 20th or lower. 110 times that team had a top 10 QB. (25%) If your pass defense ranks 20th or lower, there is only a 25% chance you'll have a top 10 QB.

Not sure I see the correlation there. Maybe you can clarify; not the numbers but the correlative values.

 

[jobberone]

No offense taken. From the OP I think it's safe to conclude that this team overachieved the last three seasons by reaching 8 wins, and that it wouldn't have happened with a QB who ranked lower than top 10.

In that light, it doesn't make sense to harp on the 9th win that never came. It never came for any of those QB--not even the Hall of Famers.

Agreed. Most likely one and done in the playoffs if made. I'd still rather not miss them esp if we do because of blunders. But the big picture is having a true contender and we've been no where near that IMO for awhile.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

A possible amendment to the U.S. Constitution: That the name Romo shall never appear with other names such as Marino, Aikman, Montana, Favre, Brady et. al, and any other's whose team won a Lombardini trophy or whose team won more than 2 career playoff games.

notice how I included the word "team" twice to make sure I don't get "one player does not win a Super Bowl/playoff game" nonsense.

Unfortunately it's still nonsense, but at least you tried.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

Unfortunately it's still nonsense, but at least you tried.

Yeth and at least you answered, and that is always a good sign.

 

[Section446]

Percy, I have to give it to you, you'll stop at nothing to express your love for one Tony Romo.

 

[jobberone]

Okay fair enough. I apologize if I was rude. I just get tired of the same threads all the time. Maybe I should stay out of them. lol I do agree with some of what you say. I've been saying this team needs a running game for years. Clearly a running game would help this offense and not just in clean up time. I also think it would take a lot of pressure off of Romo. I'm hoping with this good offensive line that the running game will finally be a factor. The defense needs serious help. It seems like every year it gets worse. I've never said that they didn't share a lot of the blame for what's happened with this team. I don't think changing coordinators every year is good for this team either. I don't have high hopes for it this year either. I never said that Romo is totally responsible. I only said that he shares blame because of his ill advised turnovers and not showing up big in elimination games. If he would have done that and we still lost because of something else, I wouldn't have much problem with him. I stood by Danny White even when most fans turned against him. I just don't have much confidence in him and I think by the time this team is fixed we'll have a new QB. Hopefully he'll prove me wrong. As for why we continue to struggle, many things are at play but I think the biggest obstacle is Jerry Jones. That's my opinion anyway.

I don't agree with it all but I like it when someone is reasonable. I also think Jerry HAS been the biggest obstacle for the team. I do think he's giving some of the GM duties to another. I like that Jerry seems a tad reigned in and perhaps the credit lies somewhat or in toto to Jason.

I'm well known for being a Romo fan but he's not much of a reason the club has gone nowhere for awhile.

 

[CCBoy]

I don't agree with it all but I like it when someone is reasonable. I also think Jerry HAS been the biggest obstacle for the team. I do think he's giving some of the GM duties to another. I like that Jerry seems a tad reigned in and perhaps the credit lies somewhat or in toto to Jason.

I'm well known for being a Romo fan but he's not much of a reason the club has gone nowhere for awhile.

I think that real decisions that are looked for and then agreed to, don't take into account some addition points...

1. First thing, the successes of Dallas has from it's starting days in the NFL, been based upon the defensive scheme of a 4-3 defense. To have departed from the franchises base defense to a 3-4, my bet is that it was one of the conditions for bringing Bill Parcells into the Head Coaching position. It was one of his calling cards of him in the NFL...good defense. He was known for collecting good linebackers, whether that was the biggest need then or not. This very fact, coupled with a Dallas team that did not yet pay linebackers to do development or backup duties, could have put great stress upon Bill.

2. When the conversion to a 3-4 system went into effect for Dallas, there were quite a few less teams running the defense. That is why the team was so successful in acquiring players such as Demarcus Ware, Marcus Spear, Jason Hatcher, Anthony Spencer, Chris Canty, and Jay Ratliff. The market wasn't saturated at that point. A direction by a Parcells' defense may well have been derailed when Bobby Carpenter just didn't measure up to the investment, both in cost and in acquiring him in a top position via the draft. Add that with the cap cost lingering from having to replace stars such as Aikman, Irvin, Smith, and Allen had lingering detriment to change.

3. The league as a whole, started to pursue and take eligible and talented players to fill out the roles of a good 3-4 defense. This aspect when compared to the prognoses of the cost of the team's top players in that scheme, Demarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff, and Jason Hatcher, made it a cheaper progression to return to a 4-3 and invest opening dollars and picks on developing that back up. This was also affected by the escalation in costs of young and franchise foundation players coming due pay days, such as Smith, Bryant, Murray...and Romo and Lee just having received their league values to be retained in Dallas.

4. Having just invested in a youthful and talent upgrade of the offensive line, provides a balance of resources to be applied to the progress of the defensive side of ball. That is the current ledger for the immediate future.

5. But the trigger for all of this, was dependent upon being able to bring in a quality new slate of coaching talent that had the experience already, and the ability to coach up players at a high level. The hiring of both Monte Kiffin and Rod Marrinelli was paramount to a projection of change and the release of Ryan. The team didn't use Ryan as an escape goat. The wheels of change occurred in the wings and out of the press. Well discussed and included in these discussion was Jason Garrett as well as league wide resources and respected individuals who had been making discussion with Jerry for a very long time.

6. The total progress had to then provide a room for development of the Head Coach, Jason Garrett, as well. That is why Linehan was brought in as well. This laid directions and with talent enough to make the current Cowboys fully competitive, but not as good as they will be within a year or two. But Jerry knew already, that a coach with all the marbles in his sack, sometimes loses control of the rudder and picks up some bad habits of his own. So, Jerry left his chosen candidate, Jason Garrett, needing to prove himself to the next level.

To his credit, Jason Garrett has the managerial tools and experience that has been developed in house as well. He is ready for the challenge, but there is a framework of organization in place already, that gives Jason quality coaching as well as a very youthful team. That team is improving with new talent, but still has a very experienced quarterback at the wheel. That is a planned progression, although, and points strongly going into camp.

At least to this long time fan...

 

[percyhoward]

Percy, I have to give it to you, you'll stop at nothing to express your love for one Tony Romo.

Yeah, because comparing the Cowboys to similar teams is a radical, over-the-top thing to do.

 

[jobberone]

Percy, I have to give it to you, you'll stop at nothing to express your love for one Tony Romo.

This is just completely unjustified and false.

 

[Idgit]

Percy, I have to give it to you, you'll stop at nothing to express your love for one Tony Romo.

Thing is, he'd change his tune in a second if the data suggested otherwise. Whereas, most of the people he's trying to debate-or to educate-prefer their opinions based on something other than measurable evidence. The dissimilarities when you read through the threads are pretty striking.