50+ minutes of Dak winning games in the clutch

gimmesix

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I won't argue that there are other reasons to be displeased. I am just saying that is what most are going with is the NFCCG narrative and blaming their scapegoat.

The media has been conditioning people with this narrative for decades. It started with "we cannot win a playoff game" and has been regressed since.
Well, when you are going to exaggerate about a player's shortcomings, you've always got to be willing to move the fences. The fences have been moved to the championship game because we've won playoff games with Dak at QB.

It's funny to me that even a player like Peyton Manning once was criticized as not being able to win the big game. Fans are critical until they can't be, and then usually they are just quiet. Rarely do they admit that they were wrong. When Dak is playing well, they are quietly waiting in the wings until the moment he messes up to jump all over it. Did the same with Romo. And if we'd had message boards back then, they would have done the same with Aikman. Imagine how a place like this would react to the 1989 season, just spent the overall No. 1 pick on a QB and we go (excuse me, "he" goes) 1-15. They would tear him apart. Actually, we'd have some state that Steve Walsh needed to be the starter since "he" got that only victory and they'd ride that position until it died and then pretend they never held it.

I really try to ignore most of it and either stay out of the Dak threads or don't comment because it is pretty ridiculous. I criticize Prescott for his failures, just like I criticize other players for theirs, but the extremes (either way) are hard to take, so it's better most of the time to just move on.
 
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Jake

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"Look at this great comeback Dak made against Washington in October!" :rolleyes:

Some of us are over regular season wins followed by playoff flops. Are the flops entirely Dak's fault? Of course not. But that's the nature of the position.

Dak has benefitted greatly, off the field, simply by being the QB of the Dallas Cowboys. So yes, he is held to a higher standard. He's well-compensated for it. Win something.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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"Look at this great comeback Dak made against Washington in October!" :rolleyes:

Some of us are over regular season wins followed by playoff flops. Are the flops entirely Dak's fault? Of course not. But that's the nature of the position.

Dak has benefitted greatly, off the field, simply by being the QB of the Dallas Cowboys. So yes, he is held to a higher standard. He's well-compensated for it. Win something.
This is what I am talking about @gimmesix .

Success elsewhere doesn't matter. The playoff losses, the SF losses, are the only issue to consider.

Dak might not be all at fault but that doesn't matter because he is a Cowboy.

Classic scapegoating over the SF losses. That is the take now.
 

CowboyoWales

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Have you read this thread? the number one reason they are mad is losing on the division round to SF two years in a row. They use that as the basis of him never being able to win.

I am not talking about fans in general, I am talking about the fans here. There is a huge difference.
But then add the two play-off loses to his career Passer Rating of 55 (when trailing <2 min to go) and his 73 Rating (trailing and <4min) and it gives a picture that he struggles in the ultimate games and scenario's in which he's relied upon and needs to step up out of the comfort zone.

Whilst the figures may not tell the whole story it's as relevant as cherrypicking 50 min of highlights without a balanced exposure of his failings.

There's a feeling that anyone who questions Dak in any way has an agenda.....well my agenda is that faced with: the last two playoff loses and his ratings of 55 and 73 when chasing a lead kind of indicates that stats and eye test suggest that Dak is the opposite of 'clutch....indeed that's cemented by how well he played in the Bucc's win, if we can can gain a lead he's the master at managing the game (chasing games is just not his specialty).
 

CowboyoWales

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Classic scapegoating over the SF losses. That is the take now.
But you cant ignore BOTH games. Now there are contributory factors and yes SF have one of the best Defenses in the league, but that's play-off football and why that's more relevant than say the 12 game winning seasons. Indeed, Dak's QBR over the past two years (where he doesnt crack the top 10) again somewhat reflects the standard of opposition.

Most all SB winning QB's, at some point in their run, have to overcome adversity in the play-offs it's the very nature of playing better teams.
 

CowboyoWales

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Well, when you are going to exaggerate about a player's shortcomings, you've always got to be willing to move the fences. The fences have been moved to the championship game because we've won playoff games with Dak at QB.
Not really moving the fences, just pointing out that Dak with a lead is a TOTALLY different QB than the one chasing down a deficit. That Bucc's game he was undoubtedly outstanding....but the eye test and stats do suggest he isnt the QB to step up and lead a team when facing adversity.

This isnt insurmountable, and not all his fault, however, this thread was started to support Dak's abilities whilst failing to address the importance of the games (and scenario's) where he doesnt come through.

The two SF defeats were different in nature (Game 1 Pens/run D, Game 2 Weapons/Pollard), but concluded in the same manner (unable to mount a comeback). The constants are: Facing a good Defense and Dak not looking comfortable stepping out of his comfort zone (managing a lead) in which he excels.

For me the problem is the persistent arguments given to deny that Dak isnt suited to overcoming a deficit.....if we do that (emphasis on getting a lead), we could go all the way.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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But then add the two play-off loses to his career Passer Rating of 55 (when trailing <2 min to go) and his 73 Rating (trailing and <4min) and it gives a picture that he struggles in the ultimate games and scenario's in which he's relied upon and needs to step up out of the comfort zone.

Whilst the figures may not tell the whole story it's as relevant as cherrypicking 50 min of highlights without a balanced exposure of his failings.

There's a feeling that anyone who questions Dak in any way has an agenda.....well my agenda is that faced with: the last two playoff loses and his ratings of 55 and 73 when chasing a lead kind of indicates that stats and eye test suggest that Dak is the opposite of 'clutch....indeed that's cemented by how well he played in the Bucc's win, if we can can gain a lead he's the master at managing the game (chasing games is just not his specialty).
You gave up on the 55 rating before. Here you are again blithely repeating it to me.

Then you accuse me of cherrypicking 50 minutes.

/yawn
 

CowboyoWales

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You gave up on the 55 rating before. Here you are again blithely repeating it to me.

Then you accuse me of cherrypicking 50 minutes.

/yawn
Adding the two SF defeats and the 73 Rating when 'Trailing with <4min' isnt exactly giving up on the 55 Rating (with <2 min and trailing), it's more like expanding on the arguments against your OP.
 

Cowboys5217

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I'm not sure why some people demand less. Why make excuses for players who don't get it done when that is their job and they get paid well to do it? Is part of your identity confused and projected onto said player? What is so important about propping them up? If they are seen as failing do you perceive that as people thinking you are also a failure for supporting them? Is it some sort of justice crusade? How dare anyone criticize?
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Adding the two SF defeats and the 73 Rating when 'Trailing with <4min' isnt exactly giving up on the 55 Rating (with <2 min and trailing), it's more like expanding on the arguments against your OP.
You stated this same argument early in this thread and several people argued it. I guess your strategy is to just run away for a couple of days and pretend that your original arguments are new.

Sorry, not interested in engaging with that. Claim victory if it makes you feel better but I have zero interest in going on repeat myself.
 

CowboyoWales

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You stated this same argument early in this thread and several people argued it. I guess your strategy is to just run away for a couple of days and pretend that your original arguments are new.

Sorry, not interested in engaging with that. Claim victory if it makes you feel better but I have zero interest in going on repeat myself.
I've only returned to this thread when you've misrepresented what ive said....in this instance claiming (the falsehood) that: "YOU GAVE UP ON THE 55 RATING" #407 (which ive never done).

This thread about Dak being clutch has, if not debunked, has been seriously questioned.....i'll stand by the opinion that every QB has a WEAKNESS and being able to step up, in clutch scenario's is Dak's (probably my ONLY concern), just ignoring the CAREER 55 Rating <2mins, or <4mins or two SF games is just willful ignorance of fact.

Going further ive checked the passer Ratings for contemporary QB's and Dak's 2/4 min training rates are way inferior to most every decent QB (by a far distance).....now I can see why you resorted to using a QB (Aikman) from a totally different era, and with a very limited (30ish snaps) sample size.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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But then add the two play-off loses to his career Passer Rating of 55 (when trailing <2 min to go) and his 73 Rating (trailing and <4min) and it gives a picture that he struggles in the ultimate games and scenario's in which he's relied upon and needs to step up out of the comfort zone.

Whilst the figures may not tell the whole story it's as relevant as cherrypicking 50 min of highlights without a balanced exposure of his failings.

There's a feeling that anyone who questions Dak in any way has an agenda.....well my agenda is that faced with: the last two playoff loses and his ratings of 55 and 73 when chasing a lead kind of indicates that stats and eye test suggest that Dak is the opposite of 'clutch....indeed that's cemented by how well he played in the Bucc's win, if we can can gain a lead he's the master at managing the game (chasing games is just not his specialty).
out of curiosity, how does that compare across the league for other QBs. if you are behind, have far too go, forced to pass, then defenses play prevent, know the pass is coming, drop 8 in coverage, perhaps it makes it harder. not an excuse for Dak, just wondering what those ratings are across the league.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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out of curiosity, how does that compare across the league for other QBs. if you are behind, have far too go, forced to pass, then defenses play prevent, know the pass is coming, drop 8 in coverage, perhaps it makes it harder. not an excuse for Dak, just wondering what those ratings are across the league.
That was one of the arguments made and ignored. Have fun making it again.
 

CowboyoWales

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out of curiosity, how does that compare across the league for other QBs. if you are behind, have far too go, forced to pass, then defenses play prevent, know the pass is coming, drop 8 in coverage, perhaps it makes it harder. not an excuse for Dak, just wondering what those ratings are across the league.
Here you go, career Rating....
Trailing<2min
Trailing<4min
Dak5573
Cousins8185
Allen9695
Stafford8485
Goff7677
Carr9182
D Jones7866

That was one of the arguments made and ignored. Have fun making it again.
Sorry for ignoring you, but there's the Rating's for your perusal.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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Here you go, career Rating....
Trailing<2min
Trailing<4min
Dak5573
Cousins8185
Allen9695
Stafford8485
Goff7677
Carr9182
D Jones7866


Sorry for ignoring you, but there's the Rating's for your perusal.
thank you for posting. very useful. I had been looking around but couldn't find any sites that this information. where did you find this?
 

CowboyoWales

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thank you for posting. very useful. I had been looking around but couldn't find any sites that this information. where did you find this?
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PresDa01/splits/

Needless to say the: Mahomes, Burrows, Rodgers, Herbert and any other QB that's normally in the conversation as a top 5 QB haven't been listed, but as expected they have excellent figures in both categories.
His findings are made even more dramatic as his stats when leading (<2 and <4min) are out of this world, and better than most everyone of his contemporaries.
I'm not necessarily using these stats as am attack on Dak, just an acknowledgement that this is where he appears to struggle....we just need to focus on trying to not chase that late lead.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PresDa01/splits/

Needless to say the: Mahomes, Burrows, Rodgers, Herbert and any other QB that's normally in the conversation as a top 5 QB haven't been listed, but as expected they have excellent figures in both categories.
His findings are made even more dramatic as his stats when leading (<2 and <4min) are out of this world, and better than most everyone of his contemporaries.
I'm not necessarily using these stats as am attack on Dak, just an acknowledgement that this is where he appears to struggle....we just need to focus on trying to not chase that late lead.
agreed. I think he needs to improve in this area, specially when the pressure is on. I looked through different years and it seems like in 2018, 2019 he struggled, not enough games and data for 2020 when he got injured, but has been pretty good in 2021 and specially in 2022. so looking at past two years, its better and seemingly improving. I hope it translates into 2023.
 

CowboyoWales

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agreed. I think he needs to improve in this area, specially when the pressure is on. I looked through different years and it seems like in 2018, 2019 he struggled, not enough games and data for 2020 when he got injured, but has been pretty good in 2021 and specially in 2022. so looking at past two years, its better and seemingly improving. I hope it translates into 2023.
Yep, 2021 wasnt so bad, however, the 2022 stats were just from just 4 attempts, and im assuming that was the Texan's win.

As Fuzzy pointed out the figures aren't, by themselves, a categorical conclusion as to his ability and yes it doesn't take into account the end outcome, but the differential is so vast and his figures so much lower than every other good QB, that there must be something to it.
Since the injury there also appears to be a distinct reduction in 4thQ comebacks (especially when needing a TD) and the eye test seems to be that as soon as we go behind by two scores we may as well pack up.
May not be all Dak's fault and not insurmountable, but also something that shouldn't be ignored...as I say we need to be taking more of a emphasis on gambling and seeking a lead early on (that goes for both sides of the ball).
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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Yep, 2021 wasnt so bad, however, the 2022 stats were just from just 4 attempts, and im assuming that was the Texan's win.

As Fuzzy pointed out the figures aren't, by themselves, a categorical conclusion as to his ability and yes it doesn't take into account the end outcome, but the differential is so vast and his figures so much lower than every other good QB, that there must be something to it.
Since the injury there also appears to be a distinct reduction in 4thQ comebacks (especially when needing a TD) and the eye test seems to be that as soon as we go behind by two scores we may as well pack up.
May not be all Dak's fault and not insurmountable, but also something that shouldn't be ignored...as I say we need to be taking more of a emphasis on gambling and seeking a lead early on (that goes for both sides of the ball).
I think that's probably why MM wants to emphasize running, specially in key situations a more stable part of the game. no more getting cute, and going for long deep passes when not needed (not advocating we don't but there has to be rhyme and reason to play calling). we used to be a decent team coming from behind, Dak was, used to be one of the better ones, but since his injury he hasn't been the same.
 
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