A True 46 defense is our best option

ABQCOWBOY

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MichaelWinicki said:
So what have you been exposing ABQ? :)

LOL

Morning Michael.

I don't know, you would have to pose that one to TothewhipBill.

I don't know. All this talk of exposure and whips makes me uncomfortable. I think the FBI monitors this kind of stuff. Were all probably line items in some sort of pre-vert data base out at Langly somewhere.

LOL...

Probably best to move on.
 

InmanRoshi

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thanks dwmyers.

Here's a link to a Rex Ryan article where it describes how he's going to use the 46 defense with the Ravens.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article.jsp?id=751


It even comes with pretty pictures.

base_cropped.jpg



I envision Dallas doing something very similar with Ware playing the Rush postion (R) which the Ravens are using for Suggs. Its really not that different from a 3-4 defense as far as the alignment of the downlinemen.

It becomes a 4-6 when the Ravens move one of their middle linebacker (Tommy Polley) up to the line of scrimmage to blitz in the gap, and their strong safety (Demps) takes Polley's place in at the WMLB position.

The only thing lacking on the Cowboys that the Ravens have is a strong side linebacker (S) with the type of stature needed for the responsibility of playing head up on the TE, ie Adalius Thomas (6'2" 270), which Parcells has said as much in the mini-camps. Unless Kalen Thornton or Eric Obogu prove athletic enough to handle some coverage responsibilities (but then again, how good is Adalius Thomas in coverage? My guess is not very good).
 

Nors

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InmanRoshi said:
thanks dwmyers.

Here's a link to a Rex Ryan article where it describes how he's going to use the 46 defense with the Ravens.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article.jsp?id=751


It even comes with pretty pictures.

base_cropped.jpg



I envision Dallas doing something very similar with Ware playing the Rush postion (R) which the Ravens are using for Suggs. Its really not that different from a 3-4 defense as far as the alignment of the downlinemen.

The only thing lacking is a a strong side linebacker (S) with the type of stature needed for the responsibility of playing head up on the TE, ie Adalius Thomas, which Parcells has said as much in the mini-camps.

That defense has both safeties deep in coverage. That is nothing like Buddy Ryans 46. He had his Safety up in the box as a potential blitzer. Doug Plank in particular and hece the 46 defense. Plank wore #46. Raiders also toyed with 46 last year some.
 

InmanRoshi

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Nors said:
That defense has both safeties deep in coverage. That is nothing like Buddy Ryans 46. He had his Safety up in the box as a potential blitzer. Doug Plank in particular and hece the 46 defense. Plank wore #46. Raiders also toyed with 46 last year some.

RTFA

That picture is their base defense.


If all goes well for Ryan, the magic of his defense will be its versatility. From the base, the Ravens can easily move into the 46 with just a few minor adjustments.

To get to that formation, Gregg and Weaver will shift in a little tighter on the line, and Polley will come down and fill the gap between the linebackers and the defensive ends. In essence, the Ravens' five-man defensive line becomes a six-man line.

While this happens, a safety (usually Will Demps) will drop down into the box and will line up next to Lewis. Essentially, Demps takes Polley's place as an inside linebacker.

From here, the Ravens have a host of options. They can rush anywhere from four to eight players, leaving offenses guessing where the heat is going to come from.
 

Nors

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ok - good you clarrified that
Going down nostalgia lane.


Sunday, January 30, 2005
The Anti-Princeton Offense Is Back

You hear so much about the Princeton offense now that it's no longer a novelty. You've read about it in Sports Illustrated, and you've seen it in action at Princeton, of course, and at Northwestern, Air Force and now Georgetown, as well as Samford, where Jimmy Tillette became an early disciple. You also saw it go to the NBA. It started in Sacramento, where one-time Princeton star Geoff Petrie is team president. When his old coach got old enough to retire at Princeton, Petrie hired Pete Carril to assist Rick Adelman.

Carril then helped Adelman install the Princeton offense, and lo and behold, the NBA re-discovered that passing, cutting and setting picks was a better offense than a clear out for your best player. Among those hanging out at the hotel bars in late-night sessions with Carril were fellow assistants Byron Scott and Eddie Jordan (whose Rutgers teams never lost to Princeton when Jordan was a star PG for the Scarlet Knights in the 70's). Scott went to NJ, took Jordan as his assistant, and Scott helped coach the Nets with the Princeton offense to a few NBA Finals. Jordan now is in Washington, where he has injected new life into the Wizards. Scott is in New Orleans.

Yes, the Princeton offense is now everywhere. Like "old-time hockey" in Slapshot, the Princeton offense is old-time basketball. Perhaps not as old as the Wisconsin "three-man" weave, but old enough.

In contrast, there has always been run and gun basketball. Those college teams with the speed and athleticism to do so will run the ball to their hearts content, figuring that you can always win by putting up a lot of points. There are many high-octane players out there, so you don't always have to pass the ball seventeen times per possession to score. Or so the school of thought goes.

The school that exemplified run 'n gun the best was Loyola Marymount in the late 1980's, coached by Paul Westhead, a Shakespearean scholar who coached some great LaSalle teams in the late 1960's and early 1970's (including one of the best players ever to play college ball in Philadelphia, the late Kenny Durrett). Westhead took over at Loyola in the mid-80's and instituted a fast-paced offense, fueled, ironically, by two Phila. HS stars -- PF Hank Gathers and SF Bo Kimble. Along with SG Jeff Freyer, this team broke on every possession, got the ball to the wings and jacked up the threes. They were so good, in fact, that they got to the Elite 8 one year (and, I believe, that was in the same season that Gathers died tragically of heart failure during a game). They were a great story, the little school that could, and their unique style of play garnered them even more attention than Gonzaga today. (And you could argue that Gonzaga is a more fundamentally sound team than Loyola was, although in Gathers and Kimble, USC xfers, Loyola had top talent).

Ultimately, the style fizzled. Loyola wasn't the same after Gathers died, and the following season they played Princeton at Princeton in a game televised on ESPN. The attraction -- the top defensive team against the top offensive team. Princeton for many years led the nation in scoring defense, usually in the high 40's and low 50's. At times, Loyola scored in the low 100's. So what happened? Princeton 72, Loyola 48, in a blow-out. It wasn't even close. NFL teams ultimately solved Buddy Ryan's heralded 46 defense, and Princeton somehow solved Paul Westhead's offense.

That offense remained dormant until a few years ago, when a coach named Dave Arsenault took over brainy DIII Grinnell, a school that hadn't had a winning season in 25 years. He instituted his own version of Westhead's offense, and, voila, Grinnell started winning games. Basketball became fun again, because the basic premise is if you have an open 3, jack it up. And, as this article points out, there are now many disciples. (Thanks to Yoni of the College Basketball Blog for pointing out the article).

Like the Run 'N Shoot offense that June Jones III and Mouse Davis helped make popular (even in the NFL, where Buddy Ryan referred to it as the Chuck 'N Duck) and that propelled U. of Houston QBs Andre Ware and David Klinger into high first-round draft picks, the old Loyola offense will always have its fans. The players will press the other team off the bus, and they'll constantly shoot the three. It will be a lot of fun and confuse teams who haven't seen it before, but get that offense in front of a defense that attacks the perimeter, can run a bit and is fundamentally sound, and that good defense will win 9 times out of 10. Sometimes big.

As for Coach Arsenault and Grinnell? The fact that he has turned this outstanding liberal arts college in Iowa into a hoops mecca of sorts is a major accomplishment. Not as good as Joe Scott's winning the Mountain West with his kids at Air Force last season (Air Force had finished no higher than 6th in its league for 40 previous seasons), but pretty darned good.

So, for all of you HS kids out there who are good shooters but who may not be quick enough, good enough ball handlers or athletic enough for DI hoops, consider the DIII alternative. Go to Grinnell, get a great education, and perhaps lead the nation in scoring.
 

Hostile

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I've stayed out of this for the most part. I really just want to clear up a couple of things.

The 46 defense had many looks. Every defense has many looks. If a scheme did not have multiple looks offenses wouldn't have much trouble scheming for them.

Just because the Ravens show the SS back in a diagram does not mean that isn't a 46 defense. Trust me when I say the SS will not be there every play.

It is a misconception that the 46 was named for Doug Plank. That is a myth. It was called 46 because it had 4 DL and 6 other players at the LOS and one player back in Zone, usually the FS. 4 up with 6 in support, thus 46. If Doug Plank had been number 00 it still would have been called the 46.

In the 46 there are 10 players whose job is to attack the QB. Now, not all 10 come every play. The beauty of it was that the offense had to figure out which players were coming and which were dropping back. The only thing the offense could count on was that the 4 DL were coming with ears peeled back and malice in their hearts.

It has been noted on this forum that the 46 was negated by the WCO. That is correct. Subsequently it has not been around in a while. It is still an effective scheme if run right. You can bet that if the Ravens have success more teams will adopt some plays. Same as the Zone Blitz when it was popular. Things that work get adopted.

The 46 was most effective against teams that run a lot of delays or draws.

I'd be more than fine trying some 46 here but I don't think we should move to it full time. At least not until we have 4 guys on the DL who can pressure the QB. Without that a defense would be a sitting duck to an accurate QB with good route running WRs.
 

The30YardSlant

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I don't have enough faith in our LBs to play a 46. At least two of our starters would be unproved youngsters/rookies and another {Singleton) is average at best. It is for this same reason I dont like the idea of playing a 3-4, at least not full time like some on this board *cough*Nors*cough* ;)
 

SuspectCorner

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so sue me for being one of those who's noticed the NFL and "tags" have stacked the deck in favor of the passing game. let me apologize for any awareness of the propensity of offenses to run 3 and 4 WR sets knowing they have a good shot at having one of the QB's targets so much as breathed upon by a DB - thus drawing the ref's yellow hanky, a substantial gain in real estate, and a fresh set of downs. also the 46's inherent inability to cope with offenses that almost certainly will recognize, audibilize or adjust, and have the talent at WR and TE to thoroughly exploit the coverage weaknesses inherent to this defensive scheme.

in short - the 46 was very effective in a time when coaches were less familiar with it. that time has passed. a full two decades ago. i don't completely discount the 46. it still has it's uses. just not as a base D.

good luck baltimore - when spread offenses light you up to the tune of 40... err... make that 46.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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tothewhipbill said:
so sue me for being one of those who's noticed the NFL and "tags" have stacked the deck in favor of the passing game. let me apologize for any awareness of the propensity of offenses to run 3 and 4 WR sets knowing they have a good shot at having one of the QB's targets so much as breathed upon by a DB - thus drawing the ref's yellow hanky, a substantial gain in real estate, and a fresh set of downs. also the 46's inherent inability to cope with offenses that almost certainly will recognize, audibilize or adjust, and have the talent at WR and TE to thoroughly exploit the coverage weaknesses inherent to this defensive scheme.

in short - the 46 was very effective in a time when coaches were less familiar with it. that time has passed. a full two decades ago. i don't completely discount the 46. it still has it's uses. just not as a base D.

good luck baltimore - when spread offenses light you up to the tune of 40... err... make that 46.


Noted.

Moving on.
 

Cowboys&Caps

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tothewhipbill said:
...and have the talent at WR and TE to thoroughly exploit the coverage weaknesses inherent to this defensive scheme.

ok good point lets use it against the Commanders then :)
 
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