A True 46 defense is our best option

[johnnybluestar]

The Ravens will be palying a 4-3 /46 defense. Their new defensive coordinator is the son of Buddy Ryan. They say the 46 will play to the strengths of the mlb, Ray Lewis, just like it did for the Bears mlb, Mike Singletary.
I'm just repeating what I read a couple of weeks ago. I'm sorry, but I don't remember where exactly I read that.

 

[Smashmouth24]

Buddy Ryan often remarked about his "46" (not 4-6, KDWilliams) defense that they were sure to give up a big play but had a good chance of facing their opponents` 2nd string Quarterback before the game was over.

Maybe newer rules geared to protect the QB also contribute to the general ineffectiveness of the "46".

 

[Smashmouth24]

A genuine 4-6 defense is an extreme defensive liability.

Ten men in the box is just begging to be beat deep on.

As for the "true" 46 defense, there's a name for that. It's called the Nickel defense.

It is opposite of the nickel in that you're using an 'extra' man to attack the LOS as opposed to using an 'extra' man to cover.

 

[Smashmouth24]

Basically, we ran a 46 last year when we played 0 coverage schemes.

That is exactly right, but even that became less effective as opponents got their **** together schematically and Mario drew more holding penalties.

 

[Drederick Tatum]

With the changes in the 5 yard chuck rule, I don't think the 46 defense will be a successful as it was back then. In 1985 you could harass the wide reciever all the way down the field, today its not likely you would get away with that. I could see using it as a suprise alignment once in a while, but you are likely to get burned several times a game playing a 46 type defense as your base defense.

 

[Doomsday101]

With the changes in the 5 yard chuck rule, I don't think the 46 defense will be a successful as it was back then. In 1985 you could harass the wide reciever all the way down the field, today its not likely you would get away with that. I could see using it as a suprise alignment once in a while, but you are likely to get burned several times a game playing a 46 type defense as your base defense.

Very good point. Also teams who live by the blitz die by the blitz. It is a high risk defense that can give up big plays quickly. No doubt it helped the Bears make it to the SB but when Offensive Coordinators figured out how to attack it I did not see another Buddy Ryan defense make it back to the show.

 

[Cowboys&Caps]

yes its somewhat more risky but you always have 5 or 6 men rushing the quarterback. Two of them from almost anywhere in the box. Yes it leaves Newman, Glenn, and Henry in one-on-one situations alot but with what we are paying them(I dont know Glenn's salary) i would hope they could handle it atleast for the two seconds before Roy, or Demarcus crush the quarterback

maybe not full time but i think it may be a good way to get consisitant pressure on the quarterback

 

[KDWilliams85]

***?

It's a defensive liability, susceptible to the deep pass so it's the nickel defense?

Learn some football, stat.

Ten men in the box is great against the run but there is absolutely no coverage on the pass.

When you factor in the matchups, even Randal Williams could get a catch in a 4-6 defense.

There are four down linemen, six linebackers, and one safety in a 46 defense. Generally, those six linebackers play short or flat zone or in man coverage against a tight end or back. So, that lone safety is all by himself against two receivers. Not even Deion Sanders could cover both of them.

And if you read my first post, the "true" 46 defense the guy spoke of is the nickel defense. Four down linemen, two linebackers, two safeties, and three CB type players is what he called the "true" 46 defense.

A true 46 defense has....
*4 down lineman
*2 linebackers
*2 safety's (playing much like outside linebackers always close to line of scrimage, one or both in pass rush)
*3 corner type's (one is technically a safety, but usually a man to man cover corner type)

That sounds like a nickel defense to me.

Not to mention, any kind of defense can be oriented to have up to as 11 people in the box. If a team uses a bunch formation and the defense is in man, it can look like there is nine people in the box.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Ten men in the box is great against the run but there is absolutely no coverage on the pass.

When you factor in the matchups, even Randal Williams could get a catch in a 4-6 defense.

There are four down linemen, six linebackers, and one safety in a 46 defense.

Um... No there aren't.

Might want to do a quick google of the 46 defense.

 

[Cowboys&Caps]

Ten men in the box is great against the run but there is absolutely no coverage on the pass.

When you factor in the matchups, even Randal Williams could get a catch in a 4-6 defense.

There are four down linemen, six linebackers, and one safety in a 46 defense. Generally, those six linebackers play short or flat zone or in man coverage against a tight end or back. So, that lone safety is all by himself against two receivers. Not even Deion Sanders could cover both of them.

And if you read my first post, the "true" 46 defense the guy spoke of is the nickel defense. Four down linemen, two linebackers, two safeties, and three CB type players is what he called the "true" 46 defense.

You are very wrong, You need to go to my first post where i described a 46 defense notice its not 4-6 its 46. do u understand the diffrence? now go to my first post and get a better understanding of the situation....then give me your irrational reason that it wont' work

 

[Cowboys&Caps]

That sounds like a nickel defense to me.

no its a pressure defense with three cover guys in man to man or two in man to man with another in deep help ususally to the #1 reciever.

Your football knowledge and understanding is really quite horrible!

 

[KDWilliams85]

http://www.sportscombine.com/thezone/Defense/46_Defense/46_Defense.htm

So, instead of having ten men in the box and six linebackers, it reverts to nine men in the box and swapping two of those linebackers for cornerbacks and adding a free safety. Well, depending on the situation, I am right. Six linebackers in the box is prudent against an offensive set geared for running.

http://www.football-plays.com/defense/2001/46_defense.htm

So... if you want to argue the technicality, you both are off.

As for my side of it, situational personnel will make me sound like a genius or a *******.

If you look at the diagram, you'll notice that there are nine men in the box. Well, eight if you count that the FS is tweening on the outside of it. The strong safety (the lone coverage man in my scheme) is now in the box instead of being the sole coverage man. With those eight men committed inside, there is no pass support. Those three rear defenders are on their own. Since, they're playing short/flat zone or man to man, those DB's don't have a lot of time to react should a play go deeper than their zone will allow. There's your defensive liability. Your linebackers are tied up at the line and your strong safety is getting occupied by your tight end. Not to mention the more than likely possibility that your LB's are blitzing, so that leaves absolutely no coverage against the two utility men in the back. Potentially, three defenders down.

Your strong safety is more than likely also blitzing or in coverage against the TE. He lacks the position needed to shift quickly on the ball should it go away from the TE. So, locked down coverage here takes him out of the play unless it's aimed right at him. One defender down.

In principle, a 46 defense is asking three men to cover four potential receivers using a short/flat zone and man-to-man. The Bears did it so well because of the physicality of their linebackers and the extraordinary ability for the DB's to cover.

It is now a defensive liability because once those receivers are past you, you can't do much of anything except run them down and hope you get the ball before they do. Illegal contact and pass interference calls are way higher than they used to be. Two defensive backs' effectiveness compromised/three additional linebackers are isolated away from the ball. Most defensive backs cannot shift to man coverage after playing zone very easily.

That just leaves your free safety. It's easier for him to roam because he can't commit until the ball is in the air. The lone bright spot of such a defense.

So... having said that... eight of your eleven defenders are already taken out of the play. Your average quarterback knows enough to throw the ball where the defense isn't. The lone fallacy of a zone defense. Such a defense works wonders against a quick slant. Other than that... not so well.

So, yeah... I am boned up on my defense.

 

[Wolfpack]

KD; I think you confused yourself. You best stick with the 4-3.

 

[Cowboys&Caps]

you are so confused man, what you are describing has never been used before. EVER. you made up a defense and called it a 4-6 or a 46 or i dunno what you are doing but its not a defense that has been or will ever be used, first of all you are saying that there is either a linebacker or a corner but not always one or the other corners and linebackers are almost never interchangeable especially in coverage of a wide out, almost nothing you said applies to an actual "46" defense, most coverage in the 46, infact almost all of it is MAN, usually within just twenty yards of the los, because that is the kind of pressure you get on a qb. Maybe you should try to get your new defense patented because its never been seen on this earth before its invention by you today!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That is exactly right, but even that became less effective as opponents got their **** together schematically and Mario drew more holding penalties.

I don't know about that but I would make the point that we never had a good pass rush to match this scheme. I think you add a nice pass rush and it makes all the difference in the world.

 

[KDWilliams85]

you are so confused man, what you are describing has never been used before. EVER. you made up a defense and called it a 4-6 or a 46 or i dunno what you are doing but its not a defense that has been or will ever be used, first of all you are saying that there is either a linebacker or a corner but not always one or the other corners and linebackers are almost never interchangeable especially in coverage of a wide out, almost nothing you said applies to an actual "46" defense, most coverage in the 46, infact almost all of it is MAN, usually within just twenty yards of the los, because that is the kind of pressure you get on a qb. Maybe you should try to get your new defense patented because its never been seen on this earth before its invention by you today!

Not all of a 46 defense is man-to-man coverage because nearly 70% of the defense has already been compromised. Your four man upfront have engaged the offensive line. The three linebackers are either blitzing or in zone coverage because of the two utility men behind them. Finally, the strong safety is either blitzing or in man coverage against the tight end. Eight of your eleven defensive players are engaged. Your three free men are the two CB's and the FS back there. Even then they aren't really free, they just aren't committed. Your CB's may be in man but that FS back there is definitely zone. That gives you three defenders in definite man coverage. Three of eleven is far from all. You may think that an eleven-on-eleven matchup my entail such a coverage scheme but it definitely isn't. You'll see a double or triple team on one guy that exposes the holes in your "man" coverage.

Don't confuse man coverage with zone coverage. A player in zone can't follow a single man across the field. As the player crosses the field, the zone he falls into is the responsibility of the guy manning it. Playing on the ball within 20 yards of the LOS doesn't qualify as man coverage. If it did, you'd see defenders getting crossed with a linebacker chasing down a WR while the ball is in the air. It just doesn't work that way.

As for the personnel aspect of things, I can orient a 7-DB coverage scheme into a 46 because it's just the placement in the box and nobody could tell the wiser. Instead of having three linebackers behind the d-line, I can stick three defensive backs in the box and use it like a Prevent scheme. Or, I can swap those DB's with linebackers. Or, I can orient it with a linebacker as a down linemen and shift it into a Bear scheme. There's still ten men on the LOS. Thus, making it a 46.

By your logic, that's exactly what it is. I can swap anyone and turn it into a modified version of the basic setup. I'll make some diagrams of it later.

 

[ravidubey]

The "46" was made ineffective by offensive adjustments, particularly by mobile, quick throwing/quick read, offenses most noteably the "West Coast Offense" I believe Andy Reid Mike Holmgren and Steve Mariucci are still in the league and.....correct me if I'm wrong, I believe Buddy Ryan isn't available this week.

It was Joe Gibbs' timing based offense (originated in San Diego) that pummeled the 46 defense. He humiliated the Bears in the playoffs twice in Soldier Field and ruined the Eagles pitiful attempts at using it (until they got wise and drafted Jerome Brown and shifted to a standard 4-3).

The Giants were the luckiest team in the world in 1986 because Joe Gibbs beat the Bears before the Bears would have crushed the Giants into paste. Washington then had to enter the swirling winds of the Meadowlands to beat New York, and that wasn't going to happen.

Walsh made similar adjustments in 1987 and slaughtered the Bears 41-0 on MNF and again humiliated them in the 1988 playoffs. That permantently 86'd the 46.

Still the 46 was dangerous before Gibbs and Walsh beat it.

 

[Nors]

Last year I would agree but the Ravens will be sporting the "46" defense this year. (Or so I read...heard)

They might throw it in the playbook - but I had not heard any mention of them going to a 46 base. Could be wrong -

 

[dwmyers]

The "46" was made ineffective by offensive adjustments, particularly by mobile, quick throwing/quick read, offenses most noteably the "West Coast Offense" I believe Andy Reid Mike Holmgren and Steve Mariucci are still in the league and.....correct me if I'm wrong, I believe Buddy Ryan isn't available this week.

No, but if you've been paying any attention to the defensive coordinators in this league, two of his sons are coaching now. One is a defensive coordinator for the Ravens(Rex Ryan), and the other is a defensive coordinator for the Raiders (Rob Ryan). Rex Ryan wrote a book on the 46 as well and can be reasonably assumed to be an expert on it.

Rex Ryan's book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1585182346/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Falx-jeb-9-1%5Fbook%5F5665851%5F1/002-5278296-5232050

The image below came off the Det Lions website, an adjunct to an article on the 46. To be plain, it doesn't look a whole lot different from one of Zimmer's blitz packages.

article: http://www.detroitlions.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=354398

 

[Cowboys&Caps]

im thinking kinda like the bears but a little bit off a diffrent allignment think of it as a 4-4 but two ILB not committed to run or pass...
* slide the right DT, over the Center,
* WLB over gaurd at same depth
* OLB(ware in pass rush/burnet) outside of the Right DE
* switch Strong Safety(Roy) and the Left DE

now Both corners in MAN TO MAN i only said it wouldn't be much more than 20 yards because the QB isn't gonna have more than 3 seconds

depending on personel and offensive alignment the Free Safety is in deep help or man to man with the 3rd reciever or tight end

now i dont' see how you can say 8 of these players are automaticly out of each play