Aaron Rodgers is now 3-18 when trailing entering the fourth quarter

[DFWJC]

I'm not flat out dismissing those numbers but they don't make Romo a HOF QB like the QB's on that list. Those numbers don't make him an elite QB ranked in the top 5 amongst his peers. At the end of the day his passer rating isn't going to mean crap if all he has is one playoff win at the end of his career.

I think he's still improving--technically, mentally, and as a leader.

He's certainly better (whether the stats say so or not) than he was prior to 2010. Given the broken ribs for several games, Miles basically being MIA, and having mostly a new line, I thought he was outstanding this year.

In the end, however, I agree that without a decent playoff resume, he will always be at best a footnote. I think without either a SB win or several deep playoff runs, Tony will not make the HOF. I just won't happen.

So we may mostly agree, except that I think if the team raises it's level of play to anywhere close to him, they will be winning and advancing in the playoffs. Several upgrades need to occur before we see that happen, so it's just a matter of whether his window can stay open long enough.

 

[KJJ]

Agree. But you're talking about perception, not performance.

I'm talking about performance it's playoff wins and championships that made those QB's great and got them voted into the HOF.

That QB's individual performances don't always translate to teams winning championships. What does it tell you?

It does if the QB plays great when it matters most. You'll have a tough time finding any QB's who won on Super Sunday being outplayed by the opposing QB. The Packers got knocked off in the playoffs despite Rodgers having a great year because he didn't play good when it mattered most. His 2 weakest games in 2011 resulted in losses.

You haven't said anything. It's just a matter of time for them. (Well, maybe not for Eli.) But you will almost certainly see those first three guys, and probably also the fifth on the list...with Romo. They (with the exception of Rodgers) just took longer than he did.

I said a mouthful. Brady has been a starting QB since 2001 a lot longer than Romo and has 3 SB wins and STILL isn't on that list. Terry Bradshaw won 4 SB's and was a first ballot Hall of Famer and isn't on that list. John Elway another first ballot Hall of Famer who led Denver to 5 SB's winning 2 back to back isn't on that list. The great QB's who aren't on that list shows how little that list means when looking at the big picture. It's a stat only Cowboy FANS and Romosexuals put any weight in because it's a way for them to place Romo amongst some of the all time great QB's.

That he had a good passing performance in a loss. What else?

Romo had a 101.9 passer rating vs the Jets where in that rating does it point out he had 2 critical turnovers in the second half that helped cost the Cowboys the game?

And you'd have a hard time showing that Eli's individual regular season performance was better than Romo's.

It's simple take off your blinders and look at Eli's 4th quarter performances this past season no QB in the league was better in the 4th quarter than Eli. He brought the Giants from behind in a number of games in the 4th quarter including against Dallas. He pulled the rug right out from under NE in the 4th quarter in Foxboro with timing running out. Eli out dueled Romo head to head twice both games were do or die for the Giants the final one was do or die for the Cowboys. Eli passed for almost 5000 yards and is a big reason the Giants are playing for the NFC championship on Sunday. Eli made the Pro Bowl and Romo didn't would you like me to continue? I thought you said I would have a hard time showing that Eli's individual regular season performance was better than Romo's?

 

[percyhoward]

I'm talking about performance it's playoff wins and championships that made those QB's great and got them voted into the HOF.

As soon as you bring up the HOF, you take the discussion away from performance measures (like passer rating) and into the realm of perception. Out of the objective and into the subjective.

Being voted into the HOF means being widely perceived as a great player. Nothing more. Why were Fouts, Tarkenton, and Moon perceived as great enough to be in the HOF, while Simms, Stabler, and McMahon were not? The reason obviously wasn't playoff wins. What could it have been, other than individual performance?

You'll have a tough time finding any QB's who won on Super Sunday being outplayed by the opposing QB.

There is a difference between teams and individual players, that you're unable or unwilling to understand. You can indeed find QB's who lost despite putting up performances equal to or better than the opposing QB. OTOH, it would be impossible to find any team that won being outplayed by the other team. What does that tell you?

The great QB's who aren't on that list shows how little that list means when looking at the big picture.

Bizzarre. Four of the five QB's you named are still playing and will almost certainly all be on the list by the time they're done. You only named two QB's whose careers are over, and both of them missed making the list by just one season.

Top 8 Seasons in Passer Rating
Brady 5
Brees 5
Roethlisberger 5
Elway 5
Bradshaw 5

What will your argument be at the end of next season if Brady, Brees, and Roethlisberger all finish in the top 8, giving them six such seasons?

It's a stat only Cowboy FANS and Romosexuals put any weight in because it's a way for them to place Romo amongst some of the all time great QB's.

As much as we'd evidently both like to give me the credit, don't you think it's important to point out here that it's Romo who's placed himself in that position?

Eli made the Pro Bowl and Romo didn't

Oh yeah, the Pro Bowl. That has nothing to do with perception.

Romo's red zone passer rating was 30 points higher than Eli's, despite the fact that Jacobs and Bradshaw scored 16 red zone TD, and Murray/Jones scored 2 red zone TD.

If those red zone rushing TD numbers are reversed, what do you think the red zone passer ratings look like, and more importantly, who do you think wins the division?

 

[KJJ]

Being voted into the HOF means being widely perceived as a great player. Nothing more. Why were Fouts, Tarkenton, and Moon perceived as great enough to be in the HOF, while Simms, Stabler, and McMahon were not? The reason obviously wasn't playoff wins. What could it have been, other than individual performance?

Fouts, Tarkenton and Moon were considered great because they're amongst the all time yardage leaders. Tarkenton was once the all time yardage leader and led the Vikings to 3 SB's. Fouts was the all time single season yardage leader before Marino came along. Fouts was putting up 4800 yards because all the rule changes were made to open up the passing game. He was one of the all time great passers. Moon is in the HOF because he's 5th all time in career passing yardage. Simms, Stabler and McMahon who was an average QB didn't have the career numbers to be voted into the HOF.

None of those QB's who were voted into Canton got there because of their passer ratings which wasn't even being tabulated at that time so put it to rest. There were several QB's this past season who put up more yards and TD's than Romo. When his career is over he won't even sniff the top 10 in career passing yards and that's one of the main stats the HOF voters look at which is exactly why Moon got voted in.

There is a difference between teams and individual players, that you're unable or unwilling to understand.

You're unable to understand that Romo's passer rating doesn't make him one of the all time greatest QB's. You asked me if Romo makes that list and joins all those HOF QB's would that make him worse than them and I said yes. You obviously think it will put him on par with them which is totally ridiculous. Romo has ONE playoff win and there's several current QB's rated ahead of him. You're putting way too much into a QB's passer rating but it's all you have with Romo.

You can indeed find QB's who lost despite putting up performances equal to or better than the opposing QB. OTOH, it would be impossible to find any team that won being outplayed by the other team. What does that tell you?

Go compile a list of all the QB's who won a SB despite being "outplayed" by the opposing QB in the SB. You'll just use passer ratings to determine who outplayed who I already have your MO down. Kurt Warner had a 112.0 passer rating and outproduced Roethlisberger in the SB who had a 93.0 passer rating but Warner had 2 turnovers and one of them led to a 100 yard int return for a TD. Warners passer rating doesn't show that huge mistake that cost the Cards a TD and changed the momentum of the game. When the game was on the line with time running down Roethlisberger was brilliant leading the Steelers down the field throwing the winning TD. Regardless of both QB's passer ratings Roethlisberger had the better game avoiding the big mistake and throwing the winning TD pass in the closing seconds that's why his team won.

Bizzarre. Four of the five QB's you named are still playing and will almost certainly all be on the list by the time they're done. You only named two QB's whose careers are over, and both of them missed making the list by just one season.

The only thing that's bizarre is how much weight you're putting into this passer rating list you posted. The only reason you're putting so much stock into it is because it's the only stat you can find that will put Romo amongst the all time great QB's without him ever having to win another playoff game. :laugh2: Go tabulate his passer rating in the playoffs and compare that to the all time greats. Go tabulate his passer rating in Dec/Jan since 06 and compare that to the all time greatest QB's during Dec/Jan...next!

What will your argument be at the end of next season if Brady, Brees, and Roethlisberger all finish in the top 8, giving them six such seasons?

The question is what will your argument be as you continue trying to make it appear Romo is better than Brady, Brees and Roethlisberger? You won't be able to use playoff wins and SB wins to help make Romo's case so you'll just have to find some other passer rating stat that has yet to be computed.

Oh yeah, the Pro Bowl. That has nothing to do with perception.

The fact that you think Romo had a better season than Eli who beat the Cowboys TWICE ending their season in the process shows what a Romosexual you are. Even Matt Stafford who was the first alternate for the Pro Bowl had a better season than Romo ever had. Go check his numbers! He also beat Romo head to head in a game Romo melted down in but in your biased opinion Romo had a better season than both Stafford and Eli. Dude go waste someone else's time I have better things to do than argue with a Romo homer who thinks he's amongst the all time greats strictly off his passer rating.

 

[percyhoward]

None of those QB's who were voted into Canton got there because of their passer ratings which wasn't even being tabulated at that time so put it to rest.

Now you're shifting the argument from "team performance vs. individual performance" to "passer rating vs. anything else." If you're now admitting that individual performance can get a player into the HOF, it's good to see we agree on something.

You're unable to understand that Romo's passer rating doesn't make him one of the all time greatest QB's.

That's not something that someone either "understands" or doesn't. It's something that someone either believes or doesn't. Whether Romo's passer rating makes him an all-time great is a matter of opinion. Whether Romo has consistently ranked highly in passer rating more often than all but 11 QB's is not. That's fact. It's also fact that all 11 of the QB's are Hall of Famers. Say whatever you will, but that fact remains.

Go compile a list of all the QB's who won a SB despite being "outplayed" by the opposing QB in the SB. You'll just use passer ratings to determine who outplayed who I already have your MO down.

I didn't, and I won't. I'll just ask you again (because you still haven't answered): There are occasions on a weekly basis when the losing QB outplays the winning QB. There are never occasions when the losing team outplays the winning team. What does that tell you?

...as you continue trying to make it appear Romo is better than Brady, Brees and Roethlisberger

Someone has shown you that Romo has had as many top 8 seasons as those three, and you're taking it to mean that someone must be trying to trick you into believing that Romo is better than they are. Why?

The fact that you think Romo had a better season than Eli who beat the Cowboys TWICE ...

Teams...individuals...there is a difference. Try to see it and address it.

Murray/Jones: 2 red zone TD
Bradshaw/Jacobs: 16 red zone TD

Team performance. Keep ignoring it, or start to address it.

 

[KJJ]

I didn't, and I won't. I'll just ask you again (because you still haven't answered): There are occasions on a weekly basis when the losing QB outplays the winning QB. There are never occasions when the losing team outplays the winning team. What does that tell you?

You won't because you can't come up with any. There's not many occasions in this day and age when the losing QB "clearly" outplays the winning QB because it's a passing league. Sure it happens but there's plenty of occasions where the losing team outplayed the winning team only to lose because of turnovers or a couple of bad breaks where have you been?

If you want to continue spinning that Romo is amongst the greatest QB's who ever played the game because of some passer rating list you compiled featuring 12 HOF QB's go waste someone else's time. I don't have all day and night to spend exchanging post after post with some BIAS FAN who spews nothing but nonsense.

I've made numerous points and you've avoided most of them and haven't come up with one intelligent response to the ones you were willing to address because an intelligent response wouldn't fit with your Romo is one of the greatest QB's of all time agenda.

 

[KJJ]

Someone has shown you that Romo has had as many top 8 seasons as those three, and you're taking it to mean that someone must be trying to trick you into believing that Romo is better than they are. Why?

That someone was you and you can't trick me. You asked me if Romo makes that list along with those 12 HOF QB's would he be worse than all of them and I said YES! Apparently you don't think he would be worse or you wouldn't have asked me that question. If he makes the list and still only has one playoff win to his credit would you put him ahead of any of those HOF QB's on that list?

 

[Doomsday101]

That someone was you and you can't trick me. You asked me if Romo makes that list along with those 12 HOF QB's would he be worse than all of them and I said YES! Apparently you don't think he would be worse or you wouldn't have asked me that question. If he makes the list and still only has one playoff win to his credit would you put him ahead of any of those HOF QB's on that list?

If the Cowboys and Romo make it to the SB would you put him with them?

 

[Vtwin]

That someone was you and you can't trick me. You asked me if Romo makes that list along with those 12 HOF QB's would he be worse than all of them and I said YES! Apparently you don't think he would be worse or you wouldn't have asked me that question. If he makes the list and still only has one playoff win to his credit would you put him ahead of any of those HOF QB's on that list?

Is Romo worse than all four of the QB's still playing?

Do your standards apply to all players or just QB's? Assuming he finishes as strong as he started does Ware merit consideration for the HOF even if he only has only one playoff win and played on one of the worst team defenses in Cowboys history?

 

[KJJ]

If the Cowboys and Romo make it to the SB would you put him with them?

It would take more than Romo leading the Cowboys to the SB for me to place him amongst that list of 12 HOF QB's. All those QB's won championships except for Marino, Tarkenton, Fouts, Moon and maybe Baugh I would have to research his career. Marino held the single season passing yardage record for 27 years and once held the single season record for TD passes. He was the greatest pure passer of his era.

Although Fouts never led the Chargers to a SB he held the single season passing yardage record before Marino came along. He passed for over 4800 yards and 4700 yards before the rule changes were made to open up the passing game. Those are the kind of yardage totals we see in todays game but those numbers were unheard of back in the early 80's. Although Tarkenton never won a championship he led Minn to 3 SB's and once held the all time passing yardage record. Moon is the only QB on that list that I don't agree was a HOF player.

He only got voted in because he's in the top 5 passing yardage leaders and had he started his career in the NFL instead of Canada he may have been the all time passing yardage leader. I'm sure some voters took in consideration his accomplishments in the Canadian football league and the years he spent there when they casted their votes. Moon was never great in the playoffs winning maybe 3 playoff games so he has a bust in Canton strictly off his yardage stats which were complied before all the rule changes. Romo will never even sniff the top 10 career passing yardage list and that's the most important stat to the HOF voters when judging QB's. If the QB isn't amongst the top QB's in history in yardage they need several SB wins like Troy Aikman to get voted in. Romo has peers who outproduce him in yards and TD passes. The only stat he has that stands out amongst his peers and some of the greatest QB's ever is his passer rating which is why so many FANS bring it up.

Most of the top QB's today have a high passer rating 7 of the top 10 career passing rating leaders are current QB's. It's much easier in todays game to achieve a high passer rating than it was before all the WR sets and the rule changes opened up the passing game. QB's didn't pass near as much back in the day now we see QB's putting the ball up over 50 and 60 times on Sunday. Romo is a very good QB but he hasn't accomplished near what those HOF QB's on that list have accomplished and just reaching a SB isn't going to be enough to put him on par with any of them.

 

[KJJ]

Is Romo worse than all four of the QB's still playing?

Do your standards apply to all players or just QB's? Assuming he finishes as strong as he started does Ware merit consideration for the HOF even if he only has only one playoff win and played on one of the worst team defenses in Cowboys history?

Which 4 QB's are you referring to? If you're talking about Rodgers, Brees, Brady and Eli all those QB's are better than Romo because they've accomplished a lot more. They've all won SB's and more playoff games than him. My standards for QB's are different than for players who play other positions because no position in football influences the outcome of games more than the QB.

As for Ware he'll be a first ballot Hall of Famer without question if he keeps putting up the sacks he has regardless of how bad the Cowboys defense is or whether the team ever reaches a SB. He's putting up sack totals that rank amongst and ahead of some of the greatest pass rushers in history.

Pass rushers are judged by their sack totals and Ware is considered by many as the top pass rusher in the game as well as one of the top defensive players in the game. QB's are judged by playoff success and championships and if they don't have playoff success or a championship on their resume they have to be amongst the greatest ever in yards and TD passes to earn HOF consideration.

 

[Vtwin]

Which 4 QB's are you referring to? If you're talking about Rodgers, Brees, Brady and Eli all those QB's are better than Romo because they've accomplished a lot more. They've all won SB's and more playoff games than him. My standards for QB's are different than for players who play other positions because no position in football influences the outcome of games more than the QB.

The 4 QB's who will be playing this weekend.

As for Ware he'll be a first ballot Hall of Famer without question if he keeps putting up the sacks he has regardless of how bad the Cowboys defense is or whether the team ever reaches a SB. He's putting up sack totals that rank amongst and ahead of some of the greatest pass rushers in history.

Pass rushers are judged by their sack totals and Ware is considered by many as the top pass rusher in the game as well as one of the top defensive players in the game. QB's are judged by playoff success and championships and if they don't have playoff success or a championship on their resume they have to be amongst the greatest ever in yards and TD passes to earn HOF consideration.

I see. Some get judged on individual stats and others don't.

How about kickers? If Vinnaterie(sp) misses those kicks Brady is out of the best of the best list?

 

[KJJ]

The 4 QB's who will be playing this weekend.

I wouldn't put Alex Smith ahead of Romo this is his first good season after looking like a bust his first 6 seasons. Even if he leads SF to a SB win I still wouldn't put him ahead of Romo or I would also have to put Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson ahead of him and neither were close to as good as Romo. It's about "consistency" not just one great year or one magical season that ended in a SB win. Flacco certainly isn't better than Romo he's been carried mostly by the Ravens defense. He's been under fire by the fans and even some of his own teammates.

Eli is better than Romo he's been a good QB for years and won a SB and a SB MVP. He has an edge over Romo head to head and has beaten him in big do or die games. Eli has helped knock Romo and the Cowboys out of the playoffs twice. He's developed into one of the elite QB's in the league. He's beaten Brady head to head the last 2 times he faced him and one of those times was in a SB. He's the only QB to ever beat Brady in a SB and Brady had an 18-0 team. Brady is certainly better than Romo that needs no explanation and if you need one you're one of those who's living in a Romo fantasy world.

I see. Some get judged on individual stats and others don't.

How about kickers? If Vinnaterie(sp) misses those kicks Brady is out of the best of the best list?

Kickers are judged on stats such as FG percentage and making big kicks. If Vinatieri misses those kicks Brady would still have at least 1 SB win and 4 SB appearances. He would still have a number of playoff wins. He has the single season record for TD passes but without the 3 SB wins he wouldn't be compared to Joe Montana.

 

[percyhoward]

You asked me if Romo makes that list along with those 12 HOF QB's would he be worse than all of them and I said YES! Apparently you don't think he would be worse or you wouldn't have asked me that question. If he makes the list and still only has one playoff win to his credit would you put him ahead of any of those HOF QB's on that list?

Having an argument with you is like having to draw a picture explaining a diagram which maps out a blueprint to an explanation. A real challenge, but good practice. Here goes my best try...

Yes, I think if Romo makes the list, he'll be the worst of the 12. He'd obviously be the least accomplished of the 12. But so what, if it means he'd have done something that only HOF QB's had accomplished up to that point. You see, it's basically a joke to ask who is the worst QB on such a list.

If you want to continue spinning that Romo is amongst the greatest QB's who ever played the game...

You're confusing opinion with fact.

If Romo has just one more top 8 season, he will rank among some of the greatest QB's who ever played in the category of top 8 seasons. That is a fact, on which you can base whatever opinion you wish.

I don't have all day and night to spend exchanging post after post with some BIAS FAN who spews nothing but nonsense.

Like I've said...we can say whatever we want. We can call each other names and point fingers and generally act like 3-year olds who've missed nap time. When Romo has his next top 8, it will put him in some pretty impressive company.

Even if it hair-lips everyone on Bear Creek.

There's not many occasions in this day and age when the losing QB "clearly" outplays the winning QB because it's a passing league. There's plenty of occasions where the losing team outplayed the winning team only to lose because of turnovers or a couple of bad breaks.

If the team that gets the better performance from its QB can outplay its opponent and still lose, that means the QB who played better lost.

Think about it.

 

[KJJ]

Having an argument with you is like having to draw a picture explaining a diagram which maps out a blueprint to an explanation. A real challenge, but good practice. Here goes my best try...

Yes, I think if Romo makes the list, he'll be the worst of the 12. He'd obviously be the least accomplished of the 12. But so what, if it means he'd have done something that only HOF QB's had accomplished up to that point. You see, it's basically a joke to ask who is the worst QB on such a list.


You're confusing opinion with fact.

If Romo has just one more top 8 season, he will rank among some of the greatest QB's who ever played in the category of top 8 seasons. That is a fact, on which you can base whatever opinion you wish.


Like I've said...we can say whatever we want. We can call each other names and point fingers and generally act like 3-year olds who've missed nap time. When Romo has his next top 8, it will put him in some pretty impressive company.

Even if it hair-lips everyone on Bear Creek.


If the team that gets the better performance from its QB can outplay its opponent and still lose, that means the QB who played better lost.

Think about it.

Look I'm not wasting anymore of my time I'm done entertaining you. We don't see eye to eye on anything you and I see the game and Romo differently so no point in continuing this marathon. I see the world as round and you see it as being flat that's a pretty good analogy of how different we see things.