Advantages of a 4 WR set

[OmerV]

we have the ol and rb to take advantage of it.
most teams dont.

So, the Dallas Cowboys have talent that is unique in history ..... sorry, don't buy it.

 

[LocimusPrime]

Here’s some interesting info I found. I’m not for or against running from the 10 personnel because I haven’t studied it enough from the nfl side



When college football teams line up in four- and five-wide sets, it is more often than not to throw the ball. In fact, the end result of those packages was a pass or sack more than two-thirds of the time in Football Study Hall's 2012 charting data.

Still, that leaves plenty of action on the ground. Runs take up a not-insignificant section of the pie chart below. Even guys like Mike Leach feel the need to hand the ball off every so often.



Running out of an empty or nearly-empty backfield comes with the benefit of a scattered defense looking to cover the outside. But that also comes without a lead blocker. How does that balance play out in the end?

It turns out that extra space is allowing for extra yardage on the ground. It's logical that quarterback runs would gain more, as the QB can survey the reaction of the defense and run to daylight, but running backs are having similar success without an extra blocker in the way.

As the table shows, QBs are gaining almost a yard-and-a-half extra when they hold on to the ball in four and five-wide sets. Overall, runs gain close to a yard more in the wideout-heavy sets.

It's not some new revelation that spread-type offenses with more wideouts tend to gain more yardage. They've been at the top of the NCAA offensive rankings for years. However, that has been primarily on the back of the pass. The teams that run out of the spread (like Oregon) use plenty of tight ends and multiple-back sets.

The chart below (sorry about the small print) shows that YPC trends upward until a fifth wide receiver is added.



Does this mean teams should consider leaning more towards more wideouts and less running backs when they want to pick up yardage on the ground? Well, it isn't quite that simple.

Of course, part of the success that stems from running out of these passing personnel groupings is just that -- it tends to catch the defense by surprise, and the average down and distance in the table above could be telling.

Runs out of four and five-wide sets are coming with more yards needed for a first down, and likely more often coming in typical passing downs. Defenses aren't just leaning towards the pass because of the formation, they are doing so because a pass makes more sense in the average situation.

Still, it is a positive sign for pass-heavy spread attacks that running without tight ends and fullbacks isn't hindering their ability to pick up yardage on the ground, at least in a typical situation.

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2...4/college-football-spread-running-average-ypc

 

[waldoputty]

Zeke would have a better chance of beating a LB in space than a DB. DBs are more used to playing in space. I'd give a DB - with more speed - a better chance of catching the play from behind. Again, it comes down to playing to your strengths. And as has been said, we'd be likely to see 5 DBs and 2 LBs against our 4 wide than 6 DBs. Then the defense has a distinct advantage in the running game.

the db has more speed, so that protects against long runs.
but the db has less power so much more likely for zeke to get extra yards.
you think defenses would play 5 dbs instead of 6 when we actually have 2 wrs that run 4.3's?
they would be gambling that they can get to dak quickly in a pass.
and plays to dak's advantage as a good scrambler and throwing on the run.

 

[LocimusPrime]

what is #3? te?

Looks like a skinny wide out to me lol not sure let me find better examples

 

[waldoputty]

So, the Dallas Cowboys have talent that is unique in history ..... sorry, don't buy it.

since 2000, how many teams have an OL of the cowboys' talent to go with a rb like zeke?

 

[waldoputty]

Looks like a skinny wide out to me lol not sure let me find better examples

i also would line up all the wr's pretty wide.

he needs some butter so none for u

 

[LocimusPrime]

Ok. Here’s a good example

 

[ConstantReboot]

I can't imagine a team looking to be a rushing team - and built for it - using a 4 WR set as their base offense.

BTW, your math is off. You can't have a positive play 80% of the time if Zeke loses the match-up with the DB half the time - and then only gets a decent gain half the times he wins the match-up.
That would only be a "decent play" 1 out of every 4 plays.

Why not? I think its a great idea where you use a spread offense and have one running back. That way you move defenders away from the LOS and force them to defense the entire field.

Our offense can play spread it out with 4 receivers and still be effective.

 

[AbeBeta]

yes everyone knows what do do against zeke.
and the teams in the playoff are much more likely to have the right personnel to play 8-in-a-box well.
the 1990 playbook had its run, the playoff-caliber defenses figured it out after 2016 season.

One playoff game.

22 carries for 125 yards.

Of the playoff Ds Zeke faced in 2017.

LA Rams - 21 carries, 85 yards. 4 catches 54 yards. 2 TDs. That's 139 yards from scrimmage.
Philly - 27 carries, 103 yards. 3 catches, 38 yards. That's 142 scrimmage yards.
KC - 27 carries for 93 yards.

The KC game is the only one that supports your claim - and in that game we largely used Zeke to grind out the clock

Everyone knows how to stop Zeke. Those playoff teams sure done contained him.

 

[LocimusPrime]

 

[waldoputty]

One playoff game.

22 carries for 125 yards.

Of the playoff Ds Zeke faced in 2017.

LA Rams - 21 carries, 85 yards. 4 catches 54 yards. 2 TDs. That's 139 yards from scrimmage.
Philly - 27 carries, 103 yards. 3 catches, 38 yards. That's 142 scrimmage yards.
KC - 27 carries for 93 yards.

The KC game is the only one that supports your claim - and in that game we largely used Zeke to grind out the clock

Everyone knows how to stop Zeke. Those playoff teams sure done contained him.

this is a running game argument mostly.
you cannot add the receiving yardage.
i would not call any of these great performances in the running game.

 

[OmerV]

since 2000, how many teams have an OL of the cowboys' talent to go with a rb like zeke?

I'm not denying the Cowboys have a strong O-Line and RB, but that alone doesn't make your scenario work. Again, you aren't coming up with a brilliant idea that NFL minds have never been able to fathom, and there are reasons they have opted not to go with this type of offense. If you were to suggest the team maybe should consider a few more 4 WR sets, probably nobody would make an issue of it, but to suggest that as the base offense is something else. Believe it or not, blocking is key for a RB, even a very talented one, and when 6-7 people need to be blocked, including blitzing LBs on pass plays, it can be a problem when there are only 5 blockers available.

I should have mentioned this before, but safeties are also part of run support, and as soon as they read run they will be attacking as well, and they too will likely be unblocked.

 

[waldoputty]

Ok. Here’s a good example

i would still line up the wrs wider
note that 2 s are not in the box.

 

[waldoputty]

I'm not denying the Cowboys have a strong O-Line and RB, but that alone doesn't make your scenario work. Again, you aren't coming up with a brilliant idea that NFL minds have never been able to fathom, and there are reasons they have opted not to go with this type of offense. If you were to suggest the team maybe should consider a few more 4 WR sets, probably nobody would make an issue of it, but to suggest that as the base offense is something else. Believe it or not, blocking is key for a RB, even a very talented one, and when 6-7 people need to be blocked, including blitzing LBs on pass plays, it can be a problem when there are only 5 blockers available.

I should have mentioned this before, but safeties are also part of run support, and as soon as they read run they will be attacking as well, and they too will likely be unblocked.

this is not some new brilliant invention.
college offenses do this.
we happen to have the right ol and rb to possibly make this work in the nfl.

blocking is key.
zeke runs against 8 in a box
how this is not a major improvement is a mystery to me.

sure safeties provide run support, but that is what would make play action work.
now they have 2 4.3 speed wrs to worry about

 

[AbeBeta]

this is a running game argument mostly.
you cannot add the receiving yardage.
i would not call any of these great performances in the running game.

That is over 100 yards per game running.

Against the sort of teams you say know how to contain him.

You do know that facts are a real thing, right?

 

[waldoputty]

That is over 100 yards per game running.

Against the sort of teams you say know how to contain him.

You do know that facts are a real thing, right?

less than 4 YPC in 2 of the 3 games in 2017.
i would call that containing zeke

 

[cern]

Balance, balance, balance.

 

[waldoputty]

still dont like the wr in the slot.
line him up outside.
note that this is a 3 man dl front so there is an extra db

 

[jterrell]

you got 2 wr's that run 4.3's and you think the defense is going to play single safety deep and nickel?
the lb (lbs) has to defend the run up the middle with 5 OL vs. 4 DL.
smash mouth worked against 80% of the teams, but not defenses like the giants in 2016.

4wr does not take away the smash mouth.
this is still handing the ball to zeke ta least 50% of the time or more.
it just spreads the defense apart more to give zeke more space.

Nonsense.
You gotta block a fairly long time for 4.3 WRs to get deep.
And those guys gotta get off the lime of scrimmage.
Press those little dudes at line and blitz.
Game over.

And no, you aren't running 50% of the time with two small WRs in the formation and 0 TEs or other Backs to help block.

Dallas will go 6 OL but it will very likely not go 10.
Give it up. Bad idea.

 

[CPanther95]

Here’s some interesting info I found. I’m not for or against running from the 10 personnel because I haven’t studied it enough from the nfl side



When college football teams line up in four- and five-wide sets, it is more often than not to throw the ball. In fact, the end result of those packages was a pass or sack more than two-thirds of the time in Football Study Hall's 2012 charting data.

Still, that leaves plenty of action on the ground. Runs take up a not-insignificant section of the pie chart below. Even guys like Mike Leach feel the need to hand the ball off every so often.



Running out of an empty or nearly-empty backfield comes with the benefit of a scattered defense looking to cover the outside. But that also comes without a lead blocker. How does that balance play out in the end?

It turns out that extra space is allowing for extra yardage on the ground. It's logical that quarterback runs would gain more, as the QB can survey the reaction of the defense and run to daylight, but running backs are having similar success without an extra blocker in the way.

As the table shows, QBs are gaining almost a yard-and-a-half extra when they hold on to the ball in four and five-wide sets. Overall, runs gain close to a yard more in the wideout-heavy sets.

It's not some new revelation that spread-type offenses with more wideouts tend to gain more yardage. They've been at the top of the NCAA offensive rankings for years. However, that has been primarily on the back of the pass. The teams that run out of the spread (like Oregon) use plenty of tight ends and multiple-back sets.

The chart below (sorry about the small print) shows that YPC trends upward until a fifth wide receiver is added.



Does this mean teams should consider leaning more towards more wideouts and less running backs when they want to pick up yardage on the ground? Well, it isn't quite that simple.

Of course, part of the success that stems from running out of these passing personnel groupings is just that -- it tends to catch the defense by surprise, and the average down and distance in the table above could be telling.

Runs out of four and five-wide sets are coming with more yards needed for a first down, and likely more often coming in typical passing downs. Defenses aren't just leaning towards the pass because of the formation, they are doing so because a pass makes more sense in the average situation.

Still, it is a positive sign for pass-heavy spread attacks that running without tight ends and fullbacks isn't hindering their ability to pick up yardage on the ground, at least in a typical situation.

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2...4/college-football-spread-running-average-ypc

The big flaw with the YPC by # of Receivers chart is that you'd expect that a larger share of the high # of receiver sets are when they have more needed yardage for a first down - and if they need more yardage, they're likely throwing longer passes. I think it would be more valuable to see how many YPA than YPC by # of receivers.