Advantages of a 4 WR set

[waldoputty]

Why can’t we utilize both? Keep ‘em guessing.

you could and why not.
i just think 4 wr sets are better to drive down the field and work over the dbs.
after 20-30 impacts, may be 1 or 2 dbs may not be able to continue.

 

[waldoputty]

Smash mouth spread...with rpo to force indecision in the key def. player

summarizes what i am saying.
we have the right ol and rb to make it work

 

[AbeBeta]

less than 4 YPC in 2 of the 3 games in 2017.
i would call that containing zeke

I cannot believe you are calling a 100 YPG average "containing"

Dude - I understand that you took time to make an argument. But it is not a good argument no matter how you spin it.

 

[waldoputty]

I cannot believe you are calling a 100 YPG average "containing"

Dude - I understand that you took time to make an argument. But it is not a good argument no matter how you spin it.

100 yards in 27 carries dude.
less than 4 ypc.

you give him 50 carries at 4 ypc, he would get 200 yards!
you call that good?

zeke averages and should average at least 5 ypc.

 

[AbeBeta]

100 yards in 27 carries dude.
less than 4 ypc.

you give him 50 carries at 4 ypc, he would get 200 yards!
you call that good?

zeke averages and should average at least 5 ypc.

Please. The difference between getting 3.7 in a game and 4.0 in a game is negligible.

If teams truly knew how to stop him there is no way he'd sniff 100 yards and certainly no way our offense would get enough snaps to get him so many carries.

 

[waldoputty]

Please. The difference between getting 3.7 in a game and 4.0 in a game is negligible.

If teams truly knew how to stop him there is no way he'd sniff 100 yards and certainly no way our offense would get enough snaps to get him so many carries.

100 yards out of 27 carries?
take away a couple longer runs totaling 25 yards, you are at 3 ypc for 25 runs.

i think some of us consider 125-150 yards at 5-6 ypc a good game
zeke was getting over 5 ypc most of 2016.
with our investment in rb and ol, we get 4 ypc or less, that is pretty poor.

 

[ESisback]

Because they only let you run 1 play a time.
Didn't realize that was actually confusing.
Power running is about sticking to the script, pounding people and wearing them down so you run downhill in the second half.
Not going 4 WR so they rest all their big defenders and play smaller back ups.

NFL teams have smallish roster and a set salary cap.
Dallas clearly spent their money on OL/RB after a decade at QB/WR.

Well sure, we’re built to run, but wouldn’t the ability to throw a wrinkle in as needed make us more dangerous? We don’t have a legit #1 right now (or at least it doesn’t seem so right now), but what we DO have is a bunch of guys who run good routes and can catch with their hands. We have speed (Thompson, Austin) AND possession (Hurns, Gallup) to go with that running. Why not utilize all of our resources?

 

[OmerV]

100 yards out of 27 carries?
take away a couple longer runs totaling 25 yards, you are at 3 ypc for 25 runs.

i think some of us consider 125-150 yards at 5-6 ypc a good game
zeke was getting over 5 ypc most of 2016.
with our investment in rb and ol, we get 4 ypc or less, that is pretty poor.

And add a couple of runs totaling 25 yards and the average is much higher. Averages are averages, and it makes zero sense to take away the good runs and leave the bad runs and pretend that is the way averages work. The rushing and passing averages of every other team include the good plays - why shouldn't that apply to the Cowboys as well?

The Cowboys averaged 4.5 yards per carry in 2017, tied for 3rd in the NFL, so saying we get 4 ypc or less is a false statement. Sure there are individual games where we may get 4 ypc or less, but that's how averages work for everyone. Some games are more, some are less, but the average is very good. This isn't unique to the Cowboys.

Yes, there was a drop off from 2016 (4.8 to 4.5), but there was a bit of a turmoil surrounding Zeke last year, don't you think?

 

[waldoputty]

And add a couple of runs totaling 25 yards and the average is much higher. Averages are averages, and it makes zero sense to take away the good runs and leave the bad runs and pretend that is the way averages work. The rushing and passing averages of every other team include the good plays - why shouldn't that apply to the Cowboys as well?

The Cowboys averaged 4.5 yards per carry in 2017, tied for 3rd in the NFL, so saying we get 4 ypc or less is a false statement. Sure there are individual games where we may get 4 ypc or less, but that's how averages work for everyone. Some games are more, some are less, but the average is very good. This isn't unique to the Cowboys.

Yes, there was a drop off from 2016 (4.8 to 4.5), but there was a bit of a turmoil surrounding Zeke last year, don't you think?

zeke's ypc was >5 most of 2016
our 2nd downs were often 2nd and short.

the running game also did not look the same.
not many 2nd and less than 5.
you can attribute it to tsmith and the lg.
tsmith may never get back to the same level.
the giants showed the blueprint for containing zeke.
2 big run stuffing dts
and then play 8 in a box

until we counter that, we can count on defenses using that formula.
the 4 wr set fundamental force, along with rpo and dak's run ability, fundamentally force teams away from that formula.

 

[buybuydandavis]

if this is correct, should we not make 4 wr formation the base formation?

I've always liked the general premise of thinning out the defense by putting more WRs on the field. The easiest block is taking the defender out of the playing by making him line up wide.

And I definitely agree with forcing DBs to spend all day tackling Zeke instead of LBs. That would be one hell of a long day for the DBs.

Things in favor of it specifically for us:

• Just lost our top two TEs, and we're left with guys with no experience and little demonstrated talent.
• Our WRs are weak at the top, but fairly deep, I think.
• With Thompson and Austin, we've actually got some speed to stretch the field (though we should have done that more with Butler).
• Beasley should be on the field as a guy who has demonstrated that he requires 1.5+ coverage.
• Our oline is our strength, and forcing defenders out of the box, and making a dline play head to head against them, plays to our strength.

I was thinking 3WR and a FB. That's probably putting our best players on the field. But 4WR could be better. Or 3WR and one TE.

But definitely, Beasley should be part of our base. He should basically be a starter. *At least* 3WR between the 20s.

We'll see how good Olawale is. Likely better than any of our TEs. I wish they'd look at Bo as a FB too. Having two real running threats has gone out of style. With all the focus on pass defense, the NFL may not be prepared for two big backs to deal with. With a QB who can run too.

 

[waldoputty]

I've always liked the general premise of thinning out the defense by putting more WRs on the field. The easiest block is taking the defender out of the playing by making him line up wide.

And I definitely agree with forcing DBs to spend all day tackling Zeke instead of LBs. That would be one hell of a long day for the DBs.

Things in favor of it specifically for us:

• Just lost our top two TEs, and we're left with guys with no experience and little demonstrated talent.
• Our WRs are weak at the top, but fairly deep, I think.
• With Thompson and Austin, we've actually got some speed to stretch the field (though we should have done that more with Butler).
• Beasley should be on the field as a guy who has demonstrated that he requires 1.5+ coverage.
• Our oline is our strength, and forcing defenders out of the box, and making a dline play head to head against them, plays to our strength.

I was thinking 3WR and a FB. That's probably putting our best players on the field. But 4WR could be better. Or 3WR and one TE.

But definitely, Beasley should be part of our base. He should basically be a starter. *At least* 3WR between the 20s.

We'll see how good Olawale is. Likely better than any of our TEs. I wish they'd look at Bo as a FB too. Having two real running threats has gone out of style. With all the focus on pass defense, the NFL may not be prepared for two big backs to deal with. With a QB who can run too.

thought about beas also.
question is did he lose a step or just was bracketed last year.
if just bracketed, then he would gain a lot from the 4wr with zeke.
or draw coverage from others.
the issue with beas is that he would be a weak blocker.
would like 2 4.3 speed guys on the outside with thompson and austin.
that leaves hurns, gallup and beas.

 

[xwalker]

Let me break this down as nicely as possible.

Teams in the NFL play 4-2-5 about 75% of the time.
Going 4 WR really only changes that if you have 4 scary WRs they must fear.
It certainly doesn't change it if you do not have clear WR1 that scares people to death.

So this 4 WR stuff is essentially nonsense for this team unless the WR corps is all of a sudden a top 5 group.

And I'ma let you do the math but 4 down linemen and 2 LB means Zeke is STILL outnumbered and must account for 1 man BEFORE the safeties.

In 2017 the year ended with offensively futility galore. I grant that.

But 2016 ended with fans screaming at the top of their lungs why did Linehan not just hand it to Zeke every play!!!!!

See the way this works is everyone wants creatively and tricks when the base doesn't work.
When the tricks fail and you look stupid of course they want the base.

At the end of the day this team had an identity in 2016 that was this OL pounding people. Zeke ATE behind that group.
When that group was down THREE starters from 2016 it wasn't able to manage.
The entire offensive scheme was built upon Tyron Smith never ever having double team help.
It's not even a consideration.
But Dallas screwed up with Chaz Green. They tried him inside to get him on the field because they thought he was their 5th best OL.
Then when he proved he just wasn't an OG they thought hey could toss him back out at LT in a pinch. OOOPPPPSSSSS!!!!!
Adios Muchachos to that OL Coach and hello dear friends to Connor Williams, Marcus Martin and Cam Fleming.

Dallas upgraded at the 5th, 6th and 7th OL spots all to go back to that smash-mouth style of football.

And you guys wanna talk 4 WRs...... oy vey.

Waldoputty seems like a good dude with a positive attitude and he ia an entertaining poster; however, discussing his scheme ideas is pointless. We saw it months ago with his ideas on defense.

After pages and pages of posts of about his defensive scheme ideas, it became appearent that his ideas are almost completely in his mind with no reference to what has actually happened in real football games either recently or historically.

His schemes ideas are a more elaborate extension of the idea many fans have about how great it would be to have a Sumo Wrestler body type at DT.

 

[AbeBeta]

100 yards out of 27 carries?
take away a couple longer runs totaling 25 yards, you are at 3 ypc for 25 runs.

i think some of us consider 125-150 yards at 5-6 ypc a good game
zeke was getting over 5 ypc most of 2016.
with our investment in rb and ol, we get 4 ypc or less, that is pretty poor.

Add in a missed tackle and he's easily over your magic mark of 4ypc.

What's sad about this analysis is you miss factors that make averages lower. For example, a 2 yard TD run against a goal line D. A 1 yard gain on 3rd and 1 when everyone in the stadium knows where the ball is going.

Those runs lower your YPC but are so much more valuable than a 25 yard scamper in garbage time.

However, by your logic, his game would be much better missing on those crucial plays and bloating stats on a meaningless one.

It is truly sad what too much Madden and a fantasy football mentality has done to a generation of football fans.

 

[waldoputty]

Waldoputty seems like a good dude with a positive attitude and he ia an entertaining poster; however, discussing his scheme ideas is pointless. We saw it months ago with his ideas on defense.

After pages and pages of posts of about his defensive scheme ideas, it became appearent that his ideas are almost completely in his mind with no reference to what has actually happened in real football games either recently or historically.

His schemes ideas are a more elaborate extension of the idea many fans have about how great it would be to have a Sumo Wrestler body type at DT.

only that spread offenses that run the ball are used a lot in college.
with our ol and zeke, we may just be able to utlize the same concepts in the pros.
the rams and chiefs used a lot of these plays also.

 

[waldoputty]

Add in a missed tackle and he's easily over your magic mark of 4ypc.

What's sad about this analysis is you miss factors that make averages lower. For example, a 2 yard TD run against a goal line D. A 1 yard gain on 3rd and 1 when everyone in the stadium knows where the ball is going.

Those runs lower your YPC but are so much more valuable than a 25 yard scamper in garbage time.

However, by your logic, his game would be much better missing on those crucial plays and bloating stats on a meaningless one.

It is truly sad what too much Madden and a fantasy football mentality has done to a generation of football fans.

zeke was average over 5 ypc for most of 2016, so the same argument applied there.

 

[jterrell]

I've always liked the general premise of thinning out the defense by putting more WRs on the field. The easiest block is taking the defender out of the playing by making him line up wide.

And I definitely agree with forcing DBs to spend all day tackling Zeke instead of LBs. That would be one hell of a long day for the DBs.

Things in favor of it specifically for us:

• Just lost our top two TEs, and we're left with guys with no experience and little demonstrated talent.
• Our WRs are weak at the top, but fairly deep, I think.
• With Thompson and Austin, we've actually got some speed to stretch the field (though we should have done that more with Butler).
• Beasley should be on the field as a guy who has demonstrated that he requires 1.5+ coverage.
• Our oline is our strength, and forcing defenders out of the box, and making a dline play head to head against them, plays to our strength.

I was thinking 3WR and a FB. That's probably putting our best players on the field. But 4WR could be better. Or 3WR and one TE.

But definitely, Beasley should be part of our base. He should basically be a starter. *At least* 3WR between the 20s.

We'll see how good Olawale is. Likely better than any of our TEs. I wish they'd look at Bo as a FB too. Having two real running threats has gone out of style. With all the focus on pass defense, the NFL may not be prepared for two big backs to deal with. With a QB who can run too.

The Cowboys base has been 11 personnel. 1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR. Beasley has been a starter a long time.

It is very possble they could view Olawale or Rod Smith as an H-Back type and have them replace TE in same 11 personnel sometimes out of back field and sometimes lined up as a TE. Figure that with a mix of Shultz/Swain.

That is the right way to think of tweaks to this offense.
OR more 12 personnel with 2 backs and Austin or Rod Smith or Bo as that 2nd back.

Not in 4 WR sets that are very rare across the league and for a team who isn't certain it has 4 NFL WRs.
TWill may very well be cut if he is suspended and thus has his guaranteed money voided.
Austin is a "webback" and most of the other guys are totally unproven.

Dallas' back up QB is Connor Rush. They aren't blocking with 5 for Dak.

 

[jobberone]

I'd also use EE out of the backfield either in motion or move him presnap and use him as a receiver. He's a mismatch for over 90% of defenses.

 

[buybuydandavis]

the 2nd and 3rd questions are what happens if the defender tackles for him.
does he dragged the db for a couple yards?

A couple yards is Zeke just falling forward.

Zeke has a lot of carries to make some statistics out of. I would hope the Cowboys have done this.

 

[buybuydandavis]

The Cowboys base has been 11 personnel. 1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR. Beasley has been a starter a long time.

It is very possble they could view Olawale or Rod Smith as an H-Back type and have them replace TE in same 11 personnel sometimes out of back field and sometimes lined up as a TE. Figure that with a mix of Shultz/Swain.

That is the right way to think of tweaks to this offense.
OR more 12 personnel with 2 backs and Austin or Rod Smith or Bo as that 2nd back.

Not in 4 WR sets that are very rare across the league and for a team who isn't certain it has 4 NFL WRs.
TWill may very well be cut if he is suspended and thus has his guaranteed money voided.
Austin is a "webback" and most of the other guys are totally unproven.

Dallas' back up QB is Connor Rush. They aren't blocking with 5 for Dak.

Hanna and Swaim make up 42% of snaps. Witten 98.4%. A good 40% we've got a blocking TE in with Witten. Beasley is only at 54%. He was in on passing downs, but rarely run downs. If he were really in the base like a starter, he'd be up around 80%. Dez was 84%.

Olawale as hback is likely.

Austin can be one of the 4WRs, giving us another hybrid player.

They make specific run plays for Dak. He's no daisy, the oline is our strongest unit, and Zeke is back there if needed for support. I don't see that we're better off trusting Olawale or Jarwin against a LB.

 

[waldoputty]

Hanna and Swaim make up 42% of snaps. Witten 98.4%. A good 40% we've got a blocking TE in with Witten. Beasley is only at 54%. He was in on passing downs, but rarely run downs. If he were really in the base like a starter, he'd be up around 80%. Dez was 84%.

Olawale as hback is likely.

Austin can be one of the 4WRs, giving us another hybrid player.

They make specific run plays for Dak. He's no daisy, the oline is our strongest unit, and Zeke is back there if needed for support. I don't see that we're better off trusting Olawale or Jarwin against a LB.

a 4th wr like austin could force the defense to go to dime.
rather have less lbs and more dbs.

could also use zeke as a wr also, and good luck trying to cover zeke with a lb.
if zeke goes in motion, the entire defense would react.
not saying empty backfield, olawale could be back there to block or go in motion.