Advantages of a 4 WR set

[reddyuta]

We are not going to run a lot of 4WR sets ,this is not how this HC operates.

 

[waldoputty]

Colleges and the NFL are different animals. As for the Rams and Vikings, they did not run a heavy rushing offense using 4 WRs as the primary offensive set, nor did they actually have any great team success.

I'm sorry, but I think you have a Madden mindset, not a real NFL world mindset.

basically u r not familiar with it, so u call it fantasy.
here are some material for college and nfl use.

here is a really simple 10 formation rpo by utah: http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/t...ah-utes-are-succeeding-with-run-pass-options/
"the Utes show a gun left, trips left formation out of 10 personnel. The RPO here is a bubble screen to wide receiver Cory Butler-Byrd (#16) with an interior pin-pull run to running back Troy McCormick Jr. (#4). The RPO read for quarterback Troy Williams (#3) is made pre-snap, if the defense shows man coverage against the receivers, he hands it off to McCormick. If they show zone coverage, with the defender closest to covering Butler-Byrd shaded closer to the offensive line, then the QB should throw the bubble screen after a play fake to McCormick."
of course, they have other plays with 10 personnel.

for us, the rb could be zeke or austin. the player running the bubble screen could be zeke or austin.
the wr pairings could also execute rub routes or a wr (zeke or austin or thompson) can run a jet sweep.
there are many options that the defense must defend with little time to think.

college and nfl are different animals.
that is why more talent is needed in the nfl.
we are the best equipped team to do this as no one has a better rb, 4.3-speed webback, dominant zbs ol to do this.

here are the eagles rpo out of 10 formation : http://www.wcmf.com/articles/rpo-explained
"So what you see here is a brilliant set up from Alshon Jeffery. He almost takes himself out of the play, which is precisely what he wants Talib to think. The Eagles don’t block Miller and he becomes the “run” read. In this picture, Miller plays this play perfectly. He squats and because he’s so athletic, he can play both the running back and quarterback at the same time. But in an RPO concept – that’s ok.
Wentz pulls which is fine. He could have given it to the back because he had blockers, but Wentz understands numbers. He knows he only has to avoid Miller for a second or two because you can now see Jeffery begin to take off downfield. The problem is, Talib’s eyes are stuck in the backfield thinking he’s about to become a run defender if Miller can’t take care of Wentz alone. This is the giant window Wentz had to hit his very large receiver because Talib was caught flat-footed and had zero chance of recovering. The deep safety is thinking read option, so there’s no way he gets back in time to get over the top of Jeffery. What you see here is a play that just can’t be defended. "

rams similarities:
1. lots of motion like the jet sweep to force defense to show its hand
2. lots of rub routes - need multiple receivers to do that - and 4 wr allows rub routes to be run on both sides
3. almost as much rushing as passing
4. rpo
5. lots of playaction

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

so you are assuming we cannot pass against a nickel given the big mismatches on the receivers.

I’m saying that would effectively take our strength away. Who said we would have a mismatch on the receivers. We have a very pedestrian receiving group

 

[waldoputty]

I’m saying that would effectively take our strength away. Who said we would have a mismatch on the receivers. We have a very pedestrian receiving group

oops, i mis-spoke.
i meant we have single-coverage on all 4 receivers, which would be risky
not mismatch.

 

[CowboysExchange]

here is a simple question.

if zeke is in space against a db who is 5 yards away, what chance do you give zeke for winning the matchup?
50-50 is a reasonable assumption for what could be a big play?
and even if the db tackles zeke, what chance do you give zeke for dragging the db for at least 2 yards?
50-50 is a conservative assmption for a decent play?
and even if stopped for a short gain, what chance do you give for the db to be dinged after impact?
10% is a reasonable assumption for taking out a 'starter' in the dime?

if you add up those odds, that is pretty damn good.
zeke would gain at least good yardage and/or ding/take out one of the opponent's dbs the great majority of the time.
that is 50%+25%+25% * 10% (for good yardage + injury) + 25% * 10% (for poor yardage + injury)
we get a positive play 80% of the time - based on these reasonable/conservative assumptions.

if this is correct, should we not make 4 wr formation the base formation?
that forces the defense to go at least nickel if not dime.
dime would generally mean 1 lb at the max.
when zeke runs wide, the db's would be primarily be tasked to stop the run
and they have to stop zeke in space going full-speed.

to keep the defense honest, have austin and thompson with the deep speed as 2 of the 4 wr
hurns and gallup could then be the other 2 wrs.
thompson, hurns and gallup are both at least the same size as dbs so they should block reasonably well.

austin and thompson are both return speed guys so they could both run the jet sweep
in fact, we could have austin and thompson take turns running jet sweep action on most plays to give zeke even more opportunities.

yes, i think we should make the 4wr spread offense the base offense.
when zeke runs up the middle, there would likely be at most 6 in the box.
of course, dak would play-action the hell out of this if zeke becomes a big problem.

The Cowboys definitely need to run out of a spread offense w 4 wrs way more often but they will ugly up the passing formation with a bunch of slow non scoring tes and designated blockers instead w the focus on the te to be a great blocker with no receiving skills and a bunch of fb mularkey that nobody uses anymore for decades. They don't use the passing game to open up the run game. Just the opposite every single time. No high tempo 2 minute passing game that features spreading the ball around. You can't argue that it's just as effective to run out of a spread offense in this forum even though all of the high powered offenses do it come playoff time. We haven't had a decent Te core that could score beans in 15 years but let's just leave them out there on every play anyways. No 2 rb formations. No rb screens, pick plays, wr screens, reverses or trick plays. Let's just run straight at them every time and not spread the ball around and try to win it with one guy instead of multiple players. When has a run game ever won us Jack in the playoffs for us in 20 years. Same old hyped up philosophy that's plague this losing franchise forever. The rules have changed to favor wrs but the Cowboys are still stuck trying to be like the old 90's regime whose defense couldn't stop today's modern Nfl offenses like they did back then. The slot wrs has no future on this team. Because they are only gonna be spot played on 3rd down w our run run pass mentality.

 

[Melonfeud]

From the "you tube" blurts I've been seeing from O.T.A's that #17
( Hurns& maybe #10 Thompson)
Were being worked out in the ol' #82 routes,,, so,if a 4 receiver set is what you're envisioning? It'll probably not be what's anticipated in yer' line of thinking,,, ya-know?

* we'll see soon enough, yet a leopard can't change its spots

 

[waldoputty]

The Cowboys definitely need to run out of a spread offense w 4 wrs way more often but they will ugly up the passing formation with a bunch of slow non scoring tes and designated blockers instead w the focus on the te to be a great blocker with no receiving skills and a bunch of fb mularkey that nobody uses anymore for decades. They don't use the passing game to open up the run game. Just the opposite every single time. No high tempo 2 minute passing game that features spreading the ball around. You can't argue that it's just as effective to run out of a spread offense in this forum even though all of the high powered offenses do it come playoff time. We haven't had a decent Te core that could score beans in 15 years but let's just leave them out there on every play anyways. No 2 rb formations. No rb screens, pick plays, wr screens, reverses or trick plays. Let's just run straight at them every time and not spread the ball around and try to win it with one guy instead of multiple players. When has a run game ever won us Jack in the playoffs for us in 20 years. Same old hyped up philosophy that's plague the franchise forever.

yup, you mentioned a things i also want to see.
much more no huddle offense
2 rb (zeke and austin) formation behind dak
wr bubble screens which we do some of
want to see a lot more jet sweeps/fakes now that we have 2 4.3 speed wr
gave up on us running a te/rb screen effectively...

the only te i have much interest in is rico, but who knows if he can pan out
i dont see the point for a te other than in the red zone, and not even sure they are worth having over the fb

 

[waldoputty]

From the "you tube" blurts I've been seeing from O.T.A's that #17
( Hurns& maybe #10 Thompson)
Were being worked out in the ol' #82 routes,,, so,if a 4 receiver set is what you're envisioning? It'll probably not be what's anticipated in yer' line of thinking,,, ya-know?

* we'll see soon enough, yet a leopard can't change its spots

i saw some youtube blurts also.
dont remember hurns except in a video with beas, hurns, rico and one other wr, may be thompson
i do remember hearing that thompson was running most of the jet sweeps from somewhere.
at least the wrs would be a threat with the ball in their hands.

i am hoping the removal of garrett from offensive game planning will allow us to change our spots.
you would think a man would have enough self-respect to resign after his responsibilities are removed one after another (play calling, offensive game planning, what next?)
hopefully, the toothless old donkey will be soon put out of its misery...

 

[CowboysExchange]

It's just as easy to run half the time out of the slot. I mean who can cover our little slot guys and be effective against the run. We'll never know. We're not gonna miss those 3 plays over 20 yards and 4 TDS a year from our te core. Any te core in the NFL could match that mediocre production.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

oops, i mis-spoke.
i meant we have single-coverage on all 4 receivers, which would be risky
not mismatch.

Which would be doing other teams a favor. If I were game planning against Dallas I would love to make it a passing game and take Zeke out of the equation

 

[OmerV]

basically u r not familiar with it, so u call it fantasy.
here are some material for college and nfl use.

here is a really simple 10 formation rpo by utah: http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/t...ah-utes-are-succeeding-with-run-pass-options/
"the Utes show a gun left, trips left formation out of 10 personnel. The RPO here is a bubble screen to wide receiver Cory Butler-Byrd (#16) with an interior pin-pull run to running back Troy McCormick Jr. (#4). The RPO read for quarterback Troy Williams (#3) is made pre-snap, if the defense shows man coverage against the receivers, he hands it off to McCormick. If they show zone coverage, with the defender closest to covering Butler-Byrd shaded closer to the offensive line, then the QB should throw the bubble screen after a play fake to McCormick."
of course, they have other plays with 10 personnel.

for us, the rb could be zeke or austin. the player running the bubble screen could be zeke or austin.
the wr pairings could also execute rub routes or a wr (zeke or austin or thompson) can run a jet sweep.
there are many options that the defense must defend with little time to think.

college and nfl are different animals.
that is why more talent is needed in the nfl.
we are the best equipped team to do this as no one has a better rb, 4.3-speed webback, dominant zbs ol to do this.

here are the eagles rpo out of 10 formation : http://www.wcmf.com/articles/rpo-explained
"So what you see here is a brilliant set up from Alshon Jeffery. He almost takes himself out of the play, which is precisely what he wants Talib to think. The Eagles don’t block Miller and he becomes the “run” read. In this picture, Miller plays this play perfectly. He squats and because he’s so athletic, he can play both the running back and quarterback at the same time. But in an RPO concept – that’s ok.
Wentz pulls which is fine. He could have given it to the back because he had blockers, but Wentz understands numbers. He knows he only has to avoid Miller for a second or two because you can now see Jeffery begin to take off downfield. The problem is, Talib’s eyes are stuck in the backfield thinking he’s about to become a run defender if Miller can’t take care of Wentz alone. This is the giant window Wentz had to hit his very large receiver because Talib was caught flat-footed and had zero chance of recovering. The deep safety is thinking read option, so there’s no way he gets back in time to get over the top of Jeffery. What you see here is a play that just can’t be defended. "

rams similarities:
1. lots of motion like the jet sweep to force defense to show its hand
2. lots of rub routes - need multiple receivers to do that - and 4 wr allows rub routes to be run on both sides
3. almost as much rushing as passing
4. rpo
5. lots of playaction

It's not lack of familiarity - like you, I've seen it a lot in the college game. But it's easier for you to claim that's where I'm coming from than to acknowledge my comments about the college game being different from the pro game, and where it is used in the college game is in a pass heavy offense, not a run heavy offense. You ridiculously refuse to grasp the simple concept that the approach of the opposing defense to that kind of base set would be different if a team was running 50% of the time out of it than it is when college offenses run 25-30% of the time out of it. Running can be effective in college because the defenses have to put there first and highest priority on stopping the passing game, and even then the running game isn't always anything more than a nice compliment rather than a significant driver in the offense. It's laughable that you think defenses would plan the same as they do with a pass heavy team if the Cowboys used a 4 WR set in a run heavy offense, and it's ridiculous that you don't understand NFL coaches are always looking for an edge and have been looking and different offensive styles throughout history, and they have rejected the idea you propose.

 

[Future]

The problem is like CPanther said... if you are going to be a run first team, you aren't doing 4WR sets very often...

Sure Zeke, can beat a DB a lot of times after the catch, or put a beat down on him, or drag them... Probably won't be doing it from a 4 WR set though.

The Patriots have won a whole bunch of Super Bowls by being a run-first team that spreads the field.

 

[glimmerman]

Using the 4 WR formation is a good thing. Running between the tackles should be easier. Spreads the defenses out and possibly makes the read for Dak easier. But likely won’t be our base. Don’t we run a lot of 2 TE sets?

 

[Verdict]

I know the OP caught a lot of grief over his post, but I think with Zeke and this OL we are going to have an advantage in that area no matter what personnel group is on the field.

I think the OP is saying a DB on Zeke is a greater mismatch in our favor on running downs than a LB on Zeke is. That's pretty hard to deny really. Zeke would have a distinct advantage.

Is going 4 wides the way to get that done, or create other intended/unintended consequences? I haven't figured that part out yet. Lol.

 

[kskboys]

The run and shoot has been tried many times and always loses to good D's. No thanks.

 

[Ring6]

I think opposing defenses would be fine with single coverage, run-blitz on the way to the QB, focusing primarily on stopping the run out of this formation, that is, until they get burned in the passing game on it.

And that is the real question, can this year's passing game be successful enough to keep them honest. We will find out. No matter the formation.

 

[Verdict]

The math is wrong, and the argument is, well, not great.

Your math is only right if you are saying that the tackling DB gets knocked out of the game 20% of the time,not 10%. Both numbers are nuts, but one is way more nuts than the other. If you really mean 10%, the result is 77.5%, not 80%. Not that this matters.

Furthermore, you said yourself that Zeke would have "essentially one DB to beat most of the time," but you don't account for plays where he doesn't get wide because the end or LB gets there. And runs wide like this are stopped for a loss more often than other kinds of runs, when the end or LB breaks through and stuffs the RB or turns him back or when the defense strings you along down the line and doesn't let you turn the corner, so you have to account for that.

And of course, the defense will be prepared for it if they do it a lot, so the LB and other DBs have a good chance of getting in on the play.
And you're not going to knock guys out in one-on-one tackling situations anywhere near 10% of the time: that's just ridiculous.
And a 2-yard gain is not a successful running play.

I don't care for the math part either but you guys are getting hung up on the math rather than the concept. I'm not saying he is right or wrong. But if a DB is on Zeke on anything other than a pass play is bad news for the defense.

 

[OmerV]

I know the OP caught a lot of grief over his post, but I think with Zeke and this OL we are going to have an advantage in that area no matter what personnel group is on the field.

I think the OP is saying a DB on Zeke is a greater mismatch in our favor on running downs than a LB on Zeke is. That's pretty hard to deny really. Zeke would have a distinct advantage.

Is going 4 wides the way to get that done, or create other intended/unintended consequences? I haven't figured that part out yet. Lol.

A 4 WR set does not remove all the LBs from the opposing defense, and it precludes the use of a TE or FB to block the LB's that are on the field.

A 4 WR set is a nice wrinkle to throw into the offense, but it's not good for a base offense like the OP suggest.

 

[kskboys]

A nasty DL would take care of this O way too easily.

 

[Verdict]

IF it is dime, but it won't always be dime. There will be 2 LBs a lot of the time.

By the way, how many teams use 4 WR as there base offense? Do you think you have thought of something other teams haven't?

Personnel groupings are (or at least should be) strategic based on your personnel and their personnel.