Anybody hear Wilbon ...

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yeah, he'd take Jim Plunkett and Trent Dilfer over all those guys.

See post immediatly above.

Thanks for playing.

 

[gimmesix]

Its always about race. Stupid people. Well, its not like they have intelligent sportswriters or sportscasters. Ignorant, dumb and stupid.

Hey, if it had been a blond-haired, white guy who said that, you'd be calling him a hero.

 

[Alexander]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero.

Chris Simms is a blonde haired white guy who cannot hit the broad side of a barn either. Joey Harrington is not blonde, but he is as white bread as you get and he is awful and the media never hesitates to take a shot.

If Wilbon's ridiculous theory held true, people would be worshipping these two. They aren't. If anything, I think the media fawns over Vick, just like they do McNabb. But it is a "race" thing?

Vick needs to become a better passer, less of a runner and win a championship and his critics will shut up.

 

[dbair1967]

Vick needs to become a better passer, less of a runner and win a championship and his critics will shut up.

I'd add that he needs to quit being a prima donna cry baby as well

and on another note, has there ever been a more protected player in football history? I've never seen so many pathetic 15yd flags thrown for a player in all my years of watching football...John Madden had the slip up of the yr when on the MNF opener when Vick got hit a little going out of bounds and a questionable flag was thrown, Madden said "but the league has to protect him, um them"...even Madden knows the score here with the league precious baby Vick

David

 

[joseephuss]

Chris Simms is a blonde haired white guy who cannot hit the broad side of a barn either. Joey Harrington is not blonde, but he is as white bread as you get and he is awful and the media never hesitates to take a shot.

If Wilbon's ridiculous theory held true, people would be worshipping these two. They aren't. If anything, I think the media fawns over Vick, just like they do McNabb. But it is a "race" thing?

Vick needs to become a better passer, less of a runner and win a championship and his critics will shut up.

But Simms and Harrington are not winning games. And I don't think Wilbon's comments were that all white QBs are loved no matter their performance.

Delhomme and Plummer are better examples. The past couple of seasons, their teams won games and got to the playoffs, but neither has won a Superbowl. Their passing wasn't that great. They both turned the ball over quite a bit, yet they don't seem to be criticized as much as Vick.

What is the reason that Vick appears to be criticized harsher than these guys? I don't know. I don't think it is race and that is a bad view by Wilbon. Racism still exists, but it isn't what is driving the criticism of Vick. Heck, Vick is also revered by lots of people. He just gets the most coverage of any player in the league. That makes his critics and praisers stick out more.

 

[dbair1967]

But Simms and Harrington are not winning games. And I don't think Wilbon's comments were that all white QBs are loved no matter their performance.

Delhomme and Plummer are better examples. The past couple of seasons, their teams won games and got to the playoffs, but neither has won a Superbowl. Their passing wasn't that great. They both turned the ball over quite a bit, yet they don't seem to be criticized as much as Vick.

What is the reason that Vick appears to be criticized harsher than these guys? I don't know. I don't think it is race and that is a bad view by Wilbon. Racism still exists, but it isn't what is driving the criticism of Vick. Heck, Vick is also revered by lots of people. He just gets the most coverage of any player in the league. That makes his critics and praisers stick out more.

Plummer has been one of the most criticized players in the league the past few seasons, dont know where you are getting that the media is easy on him...DelHomme is kinda a media darling, but nowhere to the level of Vick...Vick is w/o a doubt the most coddled athlete in sports now

David

 

[lurkercowboy]

Like em all Jossie. Just don't believe the criteria fits the discussion here. Don Meredith was good, Bart Starr is in the HOF. Danny White was good, Ron Jaworski won a championship and is on TV every nite. Craig Morton was good, Roger Staubach is the guy most of us believe was the best. Dan Marino, statistically, is the most prolific QB ever. Joe Montana is widely considered the best to ever play the game. The jury is still out on Peyton, and I do believe that he is going to win one this year, but until he does win it, I don't want to hear about him either. However, if he fails to win one, he will never be viewed in the same light as Brady.

You play the game to win championships. Everything else is 1st loser. Just the way I see it.

Jaworski won an NFC championship, true.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Jaworski won an NFC championship, true.

Of course, it's Philly we're talking about. This is true and thank you. A mistake like that should cost me my posting rights. Please accept my humble appoligies.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Plummer has been one of the most criticized players in the league the past few seasons, dont know where you are getting that the media is easy on him...DelHomme is kinda a media darling, but nowhere to the level of Vick...Vick is w/o a doubt the most coddled athlete in sports now

David

I agree with this. Plummer has long been criticised for his patience, mechanics and accuracy. Delhomme, not nearly as much but then again, he wasn't a 1st round, 1st player taken in any draft. He was an undrafted FA so the investment on return is not looked upon the same way.

In truth, I see this more as a situation where Vick has long been heralded as the coming of the best QB in the league. Possibly ever, according to some. There have been many who say that his scrambles will not hurt his ability to QB but help it. On the other hand, just as many have long said that he has to learn to throw the ball before any of the rest will help him. Expectations are not the same because Vick is talked of as the best in waiting. The other two are not.

 

[Chuck 54]

This is by far the post of the day. Thank you Wayne. Especially for the paragraph that I highlighted.

Get one young one...off your knees...I require nothing but your allegiance...lol.

 

[Natedawg44]

they were 9-19 because he missed basically one whole season there and the defense that one year was absolutely atrocious...had he played all 16 games they'd have still been blown out of those games

Alright thats a flat out guess total pure speculation no more no less
2002 Vick plays 15 games- Playoffs
2003 essentially the same team with Vick injured and playing 5 games- they suck
2004 Vick plays 15 games- Playoffs
2005 Vick 7 starts- 6 wins

on the other hand the two years they did make the playoffs, they were near the top of the league in sacks and forced turnovers, and Vick had nothing to do with either of those numbers...

Bottomline is he has one of the highest winning percentage of any QB in the NFL right now. They were a playoff team with him in 2002 and won on the road in Green Bay He then gets hurt the next year and what happens they suck and don't make the playoffs. Last year he plays 15 games. Guess what Playoffs. He's played 7 games this year. Guess what 6 wins. So its easy to see he plays 15 games = playoffs. If he's injured they suck and lose.

 

[bbgun]

Let me get this straight: if you're Fisher DeBerry or Joe Paterno, you're not allowed to compliment a black athlete. On the other hand, you can't criticize one either without invoking the "r" word. Just dandy.

 

[JackMagist]

This thread has just gotten me to thinking about the black QBs in the league. I am not being racist with the following. It is hard to discuss this subject without coming off as racist but I am merely making some observations about the black QBs in the league.

I really can't recall any truly top notch black "pocket passers." Of the best and most effective of the black QBs Culpepper, McNair and McNabb are all better moving or running than they are in the pocket. Yes they can all throw the ball but they seem to make more plays on the move than hanging in the pocket. While they are effective (two of them have been to the SB and McNair very nearly won it) they are not great pure pocket passers in the mold of a Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Dan Fouts or Troy Aikman.

McNabb especially is much more dangerous moving than hanging in the pocket; his throws are much more accurate when he is on the move. In the pocket he is subject to throw into the ground or hang his receiver out to dry but moving he is deadly accurate. The same can be said for Culpepper and McNair to a lesser extent. McNair is probably the best of the lot in the pocket but he and Culpepper are very similar. The best black pocket passer that I can recall was Doug Williams (the only black QB to ever win the SB) and he tended to be better on the move when he was young before Gibbs got him in Washington. Now I am not sure why this is. Perhaps the black QBs in the league are just naturally more athletic and therefore find it easier to play using their athleticism.

Of the other black starting QBs in the league of course Vick is Vick...not much to add on that. And Aaron Brooks is just not that good of a QB regardless of his style. He is inconsistent and will likely find himself replaced pretty soon. As for Leftwich; I have not seen enough of him to comment on his play.

 

[Alexander]

Of the best and most effective of the black QBs Culpepper, McNair and McNabb are all better moving or running than they are in the pocket.

I disagree. Give Culpepper time to sit back in the pocket, he can kill you with a deep pass. So can Byron Leftwich. Vick, McNabb and McNair fit the "stereotype". But I do not subscribe to the theory that black QBs cannot be pocket passers. Doug Williams was as pocket as they come. So was James Harris. So was Warren Moon.

 

[Derinyar]

Vick right now does help his team win, but is a medicore QB. If Vick's ability to move is at all hampered in a game, he is going to be removed, because at this point hes shown no ability to beat a team consistetnly with his arm. In the long run a QB will have to be able to be a consistent threat throwing the ball to be successful. I don't think Vick will get there, because too many people are already telling him hes great which likely makes him doubt the fact that he needs to improve.

McNabb, in my mind, is a more complete QB than Vick is. He realized he had to become better throwing the ball, and has worked on it and has gotten better.

 

[MarionBarberThe4th]

No one said Vick is garbage, or shouldnt be playing QB, they said that his passing has not progressed, and its true.

Hes still one of the most valuable players in the league, but hell never really be a pocket passer.

This is about as racist as when on their show they made an all time white team of NBA players

 

[Alexander]

Vick right now does help his team win, but is a medicore QB. If Vick's ability to move is at all hampered in a game, he is going to be removed, because at this point hes shown no ability to beat a team consistetnly with his arm. In the long run a QB will have to be able to be a consistent threat throwing the ball to be successful. I don't think Vick will get there, because too many people are already telling him hes great which likely makes him doubt the fact that he needs to improve.

McNabb, in my mind, is a more complete QB than Vick is. He realized he had to become better throwing the ball, and has worked on it and has gotten better.

Absolutely.

McNabb has honed his deep ball and is now considered complete (at least by me).

Vick is the opposite. He has next to no touch. Even Brian Finneran has stated that it takes a while to get used to his passes because he throws a very uncatchable football with way too much behind it.

 

[JackMagist]

I disagree. Give Culpepper time to sit back in the pocket, he can kill you with a deep pass. So can Byron Leftwich. Vick, McNabb and McNair fit the "stereotype". But I do not subscribe to the theory that black QBs cannot be pocket passers. Doug Williams was as pocket as they come. So was James Harris. So was Warren Moon.

I won't argue the point about Culpepper; I have seen him do some very good work in the pocket but he is also very effective on the move. And again I have not seen that much of Leftwich and honestly when I have seen him he has been injured and hobbling so again...no comment on him. Williams was indeed a good pocket passer (as I mentioned) though it was hard to tell early on when he was with Tampa Bay; there he had to run because he never had time to throw. Moons record speaks for itself he was a great passer; he just slipped my mind. James Harris?...I draw a complete blank on him but on the other side Kordell Stewart was another starter who fit the mold.

Again I never meant to imply that a black QB "couldn't" be a great pocket passer or that none ever had been. My point was that especially with the black QBs currently in the league there are a higher percentage of them who are not at their best in the pocket. While unfair to some of the black QBs the "stereotype" exists fore a reason; it does fit a high percentage of black QBs.

 

[JackMagist]

Absolutely.

McNabb has honed his deep ball and is now considered complete (at least by me).

Vick is the opposite. He has next to no touch. Even Brian Finneran has stated that it takes a while to get used to his passes because he throws a very uncatchable football with way too much behind it.

I also consider McNabb a good QB and he does have a fine deep ball. But I still maintain that in the pocket he throws too many into the ground or too high. He is especially hampered by this with his short to intermediate passes. I do not fear McNabb if we can keep him in the pocket or even carrying the ball downfield but when we let him start to run around in the backfield he kills us with his impromptu playmaking ability.

 

[Alexander]

While unfair to some of the black QBs the "stereotype" exists fore a reason; it does fit a high percentage of black QBs.

There are exactly 14 black QBs in the NFL right now:

Cleo Lemon, Miami
Anthony Wright, Baltimore
Kordell Stewart, Baltimore
Charlie Batch, Pittsburgh
Tony Banks, Houston
Byron Leftwich, Jacksonville
David Gerrard, Jacksonville
Steve McNair, Tennessee
Seneca Wallace, Seattle
Michael Vick, Atlanta
Daunte Culpepper, Minnesota
Jeff Blake, Chicago
Jason Campbell, Washington
Donovan McNabb, Philadelphia

Save Stewart, McNair, Vick and Wallace, I fail to see any QBs who fit the "mobile" stereotype.