Apple vs Samsung

[juck]

Apple has one phone yet still outsells all androids. Im not saying one is better than the other. I will say Apple is going to really outsell them this fall when new iphone comes out. Iphone is simpler to use and most people want simple. Ive had both. Iphone is a solid product. Im considering that Samsung Galaxy s3 however. It looks nice.

 

[a_minimalist]

All I want is for them to both put out compelling products and let the consumers decide which product they prefer. That isn't what Apple wants because Apple is already losing the battle. Android phones already out number iPhones almost 2-1. Apple knows that the Android tablets are going to do the same thing. They are cheaper and Android is evolving faster than Apple can with iOS. This not only means Android in the end will be a superior product to iOS, but the fact that Android products are cheaper will force Apple to lower it's margins.

Apple lower it's margins to the red-line? The margins that has made it so cash fat? That is like up rooting an average middle class American and making him survive on a half a bowl of porridge a day. Apple isn't scared of Android. They are absolutely terrified.

I agree with everything you said for the most part. I think it's almost like a form of identity crisis for Apple. To me they are something like Ferrari and the Android is maybe an Infiniti or Saab. The price point Apple sets their product at will always have trouble competing with product of a lower price point. A refusal to accept that only hurts Apple. They can sue all they want but a lot of people just aren't willing to spend the amount of money an Apple purchase requires. They will always look for something cheaper. I don't think Apple has decided to own that identity yet. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Apple has one phone yet still outsells all androids.

Umm. Not true. Android is 61% of the smartphone market while the iPhone is only 20%. Android smartphones outsell iPhones 3-1.

https://lh5.***BROKEN***/-1R6cbaWXuLU/UBa6pvL-6uI/AAAAAAAACh4/TM9y3cbPImQ/s628/marketshare.png

 

[masomenos]

All I want is for them to both put out compelling products and let the consumers decide which product they prefer. That isn't what Apple wants because Apple is already losing the battle. Android phones already out number iPhones almost 2-1. Apple knows that the Android tablets are going to do the same thing. They are cheaper and Android is evolving faster than Apple can with iOS. This not only means Android in the end will be a superior product to iOS, but the fact that Android products are cheaper will force Apple to lower it's margins.

Apple lower it's margins to the red-line? The margins that has made it so cash fat? That is like up rooting an average middle class American and making him survive on a half a bowl of porridge a day. Apple isn't scared of Android. They are absolutely terrified.

Saying the iPhone is outnumbered by Anroid is like saying the BMW 3 series is outnumbered by Lexus. It's true but one is a product line, the other is an entire product range. It's genus vs family.

I understand that you hate Apple, but you should at least paint an accurate picture. First, Apple has no reason to be "terrified" of Android. Android is the one losing ground, Apple is gaining ground:

Android still owns more than half the U.S. smartphone business, but it declined in both shipments and market share in the second quarter.

Google's mobile OS grabbed a 56 chunk of the the market in the June quarter, down from 61 percent a year ago, according to a report released today by Strategy Analytics. Shipments fell to 13.4 million from 15.3 million in 2011's second quarter.

At the same time, the iPhone saw increased demand. Apple's smartphone market share surged to 33 percent last quarter from 23 percent a year ago. Shipments rose to 7.9 million from 5.9 million over the same period.

Android suffed a year-to-year decline in both absolute and relative terms. Apple realized year-to-year gains. With industry-leading retention and projected iPhone 5 sales of at least 80 MM, I have to think Apple is pretty confident in its position. Add in the recent forecasts that point to the iPad both taking market share from Android and remaining the majority choice in the tablet market for the forseeable future and that confidence just grows stronger.

And where does this idea that Apple will be forced to lower it's margins come from? Did they do it for the iPod, in the face of dozens of cheaper competitors? No. Did they do it with MacBooks in the face of dozens, if not hundreds, of cheaper competitors? No. Did they do it with the MacBook Air? No. Apple doesn't compromise on its margins and yet it has experienced growth, at different times, in all of those markets.

 

[dez_for_prez]

Umm. Not true. Android is 61% of the smartphone market while the iPhone is only 20%. Android smartphones outsell iPhones 3-1.

https://lh5.***BROKEN***/-1R6cbaWXuLU/UBa6pvL-6uI/AAAAAAAACh4/TM9y3cbPImQ/s628/marketshare.png

I think he ment the iPhone 4s vs say the Samsung galaxy. 1 phone vs another, not brand vs brand.

 

[masomenos]

I agree with everything you said for the most part. I think it's almost like a form of identity crisis for Apple. To me they are something like Ferrari and the Android is maybe an Infiniti or Saab. The price point Apple sets their product at will always have trouble competing with product of a lower price point. A refusal to accept that only hurts Apple. They can sue all they want but a lot of people just aren't willing to spend the amount of money an Apple purchase requires. They will always look for something cheaper. I don't think Apple has decided to own that identity yet. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

That's not really true; margins matter more than price point. There is an equilibrium point - a company can't just pursue any margin it wants - but when you're the only company providing a given experience, you don't have to compete as much on price. While there are other ways to have a smartphone experience, there is only one way to participate in the iOS ecosystem and thats by buying an Apple product. As long as that ecosystem has value over the competition, Apple will be able to charge a premium for it. You're right that not everyone is willing to pay more for Apple products, but that's fine Apple.

 

[a_minimalist]

That's not really true; margins matter more than price point. There is an equilibrium point - a company can't just pursue any margin it wants - but when you're the only company providing a given experience, you don't have to compete as much on price. While there are other ways to have a smartphone experience, there is only one way to participate in the iOS ecosystem and thats by buying an Apple product. As long as that ecosystem has value over the competition, Apple will be able to charge a premium for it. You're right that not everyone is willing to pay more for Apple products, but that's fine Apple.

Maybe I'm missing something but I think you do have to compete on price. Just because you are providing a unique experience doesn't mean people are willing to pay for it. People end up looking for a less expensive experience. If you want to control an enormous part of the marketplace which is something Apple seems to want by its cutthroat behavior you have to address price. They won't admit it but clearly they want to come as close as possible to monopolizing the industry. Who wouldn't? That means less competition and more control. I just don't see how they can compete when it comes to entry level product prices. If they create a much cheaper product that will ruin the feeling or sense of luxury you get when looking at Apple product.

There's a reason why a company like Zara makes more $$ than a company like Ralph Lauren. Price point AND margins.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Saying the iPhone is outnumbered by Anroid is like saying the BMW 3 series is outnumbered by Lexus. It's true but one is a product line, the other is an entire product range. It's genus vs family.

I understand that you hate Apple, but you should at least paint an accurate picture. First, Apple has no reason to be "terrified" of Android. Android is the one losing ground, Apple is gaining ground:

Those numbers are skewed somehow. Lets look at Gartner's numbers rather than some off media skewed numbers to make you see what they want you to see. (link is a direct link to Gartner's numbers)

Numbers are in thousands.

OS                  2012         (% of market)             1211      (% of market)
Android         81,067.4               56.1            36,350.1            36.4
iOS             33,120.5               22.9            16,883.2            16.9

So, iOS sold about 16.883M phones in 1211 and 33.120M phones in 2012. Lets do 16.883 x 2 and you get 33.67M. That is right at doubling the numbers of 2011 in 2012.

Now lets double Android's 2011 numbers. 36.350M x 2 is 72.7M, yet Android actually sold 81.067M phones in 2012 over doubling how many phones Android sold from 2011. Not only that, Android sold more phones in 2011 than Apple did in 2012 after which Apple had doubled it's output.

Android increased its smartphone sales by 44.717M phones from 2011 to 2012. Androids increase alone was larger than Apple's total output for 2012. Android's increase in volume alone between 2011 and 2012 (the 44.717M phones) was 89.5% of Apple's total sales for both 2011 and 2012 combined!

I find it mind boggling that someone could say Apple was gaining ground on Android when Android's increased ALONE in sales over the previous year is almost 90% of Apple's TOTAL sales over *both* years!

Let me be clear about this. Apple didn't do **** to Android in the market. Android CRUSHED Apple's iPhone sales. Dude, don't get your facts from mediots, get the real numbers. The media always tries to warp facts. I work in the financial industry. They sing doom and gloom even in bear markets.

btw, about a single iPhone vs all Android comment. You know what the problem with that is right? There *IS* only one iPhone and you have many many many choices of Android phones. Galaxy S3, Galaxy Nexus, DesireHD, Inspire, etc, etc, and more, etc. If there was only one Android phone and say it was the Galaxy Nexus. The Galaxy Nexus would CRUSH the iPhone in sales.

 

[arglebargle]

Apple's strengths are in interface and industrial design. Direct 'electronic' innovation, not so much. They can trailblaze: iTunes was the first major commercial breakthrough in digital music (Despite it being a locked down, horrible design). Go back and look at tech sites talking about the pending release of the iPad, and you will see a horde of tech-savvy mavens talking about what a disaster it would be, as no one wanted these things.

Apple popularizes things. They 'created' the modern mouse interface; though if I recall correctly it was actually designed by Sun Systems. However they fought tooth and nail to keep a one-button mouse as other computer companies added more buttons to the device. Not so innovation....


To the extent that Apple is anti-competitive (which is pretty large), I do dislike them. They are in the same boat with Microsoft, Intel, IBM, etc. They do deserve all the flack they get for that.

Like so many big companies, their abuse of the present day system is rampant, to the point of acceptance in some cases. Free market this isn't though.

 

[sacase]

I am an apple hater as well. But my reasons are a bit differnet. I was not a huge fan of them but they made a good product. However a couple years back when they lost the Iphone in a bar and the dude from Gixmodo or whatever got a hold of it, they had the SFPD go to the guys house and ask to search it for the phone. However, the SFPD didn't do the search it was apple employees who did the search not identifying themselves as apple employees. That really irked me. Sorry, Apple security should not be conducting searches of people's homes under the guise of the police.

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/09/02...did-assist-apple-in-house-search-of-iphone-5/

 

[masomenos]

Maybe I'm missing something but I think you do have to compete on price. Just because you are providing a unique experience doesn't mean people are willing to pay for it. People end up looking for a less expensive experience. If you want to control an enormous part of the marketplace which is something Apple seems to want by its cutthroat behavior you have to address price. They won't admit it but clearly they want to come as close as possible to monopolizing the industry. Who wouldn't? That means less competition and more control. I just don't see how they can compete when it comes to entry level product prices. If they create a much cheaper product that will ruin the feeling or sense of luxury you get when looking at Apple product.

There's a reason why a company like Zara makes more $$ than a company like Ralph Lauren. Price point AND margins.

Like I said, you do have to compete on price to a point - you can't seek whatever margins you want. People only look for less expensive versions of a product when they either can't afford the more expensive option or they don't value the expensive option. As long as people value the Apple experience (e.g. the ecosystem, the design, the prestige, etc) more than the experience their competitors offer, Apple can continue their current pricing model. Of course they want as much market penetration as possible but they aren't willing to sacrifice per-unit-revenue in order to get there. And up to now, they haven't had to.

Entry level products have always trickled down for Apple (and the rest of the technology world, for that matter). Apple's current model simply uses older models as entry level products. You can get an on-contract iPhone 4 for $50 at BestBuy. That's a fantastic deal for a high quality entry level device. It's an older device, sure but you make compromises with any entry level device. For the iPad, I think you'll see a product line similar to the iPod. Eventually the family will include 4 basic models, each with a variety of storage options. As of this fall you'll have the iPod touch (which is like an iPad-mini-mini), the iPad mini, the previous iPad and the new iPad. That gives you 4 price points for non-cellular, multi-touch devices. Will those price points be higher than the competition? Probably but that's okay as long as Apple continues to provide an experience that buyers are willing to pay a slight premium for.

Companies like Zara and H&M make a lot of money because they are able to provide a similar experience to mid-end brands like Ralph Lauren. For decades, clothing manufacturers have been using lower quality fabrics and substandard stitching on their products because it's cheaper to manufacture. Despite the lower quality garments, the price has remained the same. That gave discount fashion retailers a huge opening. You can look as good and feel as comfortable in an Oxford shirt by Zara as you can in one made by Polo.

That's a case of brands sacrificing quality for profit-margin and that's not something Apple does.

 

[juck]

Umm. Not true. Android is 61% of the smartphone market while the iPhone is only 20%. Android smartphones outsell iPhones 3-1.

https://lh5.***BROKEN***/-1R6cbaWXuLU/UBa6pvL-6uI/AAAAAAAACh4/TM9y3cbPImQ/s628/marketshare.png

I meant against each phone. Apple has ONE phone. Android has 6 billion lol

 

[juck]

Im not a tech geek but i do know this. Every studio I ever recorded in being in bands all use Macs. Religiously.

 

[juck]

How does one keep up with the newest and best Android phone? Theres a better one every week.lol.

 

[Dallas]

Im not a tech geek but i do know this. Every studio I ever recorded in being in bands all use Macs. Religiously.

How many studios do it all on an iphone though? You argue (1) phone against 100's of Android phone but then in the same breath try and stand up your argument using the entire Apple line.

One or the other please.

 

[masomenos]

Those numbers are skewed somehow. Lets look at Gartner's numbers rather than some off media skewed numbers to make you see what they want you to see. (link is a direct link to Gartner's numbers)

Numbers are in thousands.

OS                  2012         (% of market)             1211      (% of market)
Android         81,067.4               56.1            36,350.1            36.4
iOS             33,120.5               22.9            16,883.2            16.9

So, iOS sold about 16.883M phones in 1211 and 33.120M phones in 2012. Lets do 16.883 x 2 and you get 33.67M. That is right at doubling the numbers of 2011 in 2012.

Now lets double Android's 2011 numbers. 36.350M x 2 is 72.7M, yet Android actually sold 81.067M phones in 2012 over doubling how many phones Android sold from 2011. Not only that, Android sold more phones in 2011 than Apple did in 2012 after which Apple had doubled it's output.

Android increased its smartphone sales by 44.717M phones from 2011 to 2012. Androids increase alone was larger than Apple's total output for 2012. Android's increase in volume alone between 2011 and 2012 (the 44.717M phones) was 89.5% of Apple's total sales for both 2011 and 2012 combined!

I find it mind boggling that someone could say Apple was gaining ground on Android when Android's increased ALONE in sales over the previous year is almost 90% of Apple's TOTAL sales over *both* years!

Let me be clear about this. Apple didn't do **** to Android in the market. Android CRUSHED Apple's iPhone sales. Dude, don't get your facts from mediots, get the real numbers. The media always tries to warp facts. I work in the financial industry. They sing doom and gloom even in bear markets.

btw, about a single iPhone vs all Android comment. You know what the problem with that is right? There *IS* only one iPhone and you have many many many choices of Android phones. Galaxy S3, Galaxy Nexus, DesireHD, Inspire, etc, etc, and more, etc. If there was only one Android phone and say it was the Galaxy Nexus. The Galaxy Nexus would CRUSH the iPhone in sales.

My numbers were just for the U.S., as the quotation said. Although not the largest market, the U.S. is the most profitable market. Even though the largest carrier in the largest market (i.e. China) doesn't offer the iPhone, Apple still rakes in 80% of smartphone profits in China. In Japan, iOS is gaining market share on Android. In the U.K., iOS is gaining market share on Android. In the most profitable markets, Apple is the most profitable and they are gaining market share. That's a pretty strong foundation for confidence, dude.

Apple struggles in emerging markets because their products are more expensive. Android has such large global penetration because you can get Gingerbread phones for dirt cheap. But there are no profits to be found in basically giving away phones to people who won't purchase apps and media in the ecosystem.

Not all market share is created equal.

 

[a_minimalist]

Like I said, you do have to compete on price to a point - you can't seek whatever margins you want. People only look for less expensive versions of a product when they either can't afford the more expensive option or they don't value the expensive option. As long as people value the Apple experience (e.g. the ecosystem, the design, the prestige, etc) more than the experience their competitors offer, Apple can continue their current pricing model. Of course they want as much market penetration as possible but they aren't willing to sacrifice per-unit-revenue in order to get there. And up to now, they haven't had to.

There are more people on our planet who can't afford an Apple product than who can. I'm sure they value the Apple experience but it simply doesn't fit in their budget. That's the argument I was making about price point. You can reach more people with a cheaper product than you can with an expensive product, that's the bottom line. I don't think Apple owns that as their identity. They want everyone to buy their product but they only offer NEW product at high prices. That's okay, I'm all for that, but to expect to have the market share that a cheaper Android has doesn't make much sense to me. They seem to be fighting for market share they have no control of just so other companies can't put out product and reach customers they can't. It's like Polo or Armani trying to put Zara or H&M out of business so that there can only be Polo or Armani in the market, even though a ton of people can't afford Polo or Armani. It's anti-competitive.

Entry level products have always trickled down for Apple (and the rest of the technology world, for that matter). Apple's current model simply uses older models as entry level products. You can get an on-contract iPhone 4 for $50 at BestBuy. That's a fantastic deal for a high quality entry level device. It's an older device, sure but you make compromises with any entry level device.

That's a very good point. I just question if the fact that it's an older model turns people off. They bought a new phone that is old. People like to have new things so they feel current. They can by a current phone that is cheaper rather than an old iPhone at that same price. The experience of both is subjective and something tells me that the people who buy the cheaper product(Android) do a very good job of convincing themselves that their phone is just as good as the phone that is more expensive(iPhone).

Companies like Zara and H&M make a lot of money because they are able to provide a similar experience to mid-end brands like Ralph Lauren. For decades, clothing manufacturers have been using lower quality fabrics and substandard stitching on their products because it's cheaper to manufacture. Despite the lower quality garments, the price has remained the same. That gave discount fashion retailers a huge opening. You can look as good and feel as comfortable in an Oxford shirt by Zara as you can in one made by Polo.

That's a case of brands sacrificing quality for profit-margin and that's not something Apple does.

That's close. They use cheaper fabric and easier construction techniques on clothing. Easier techniques require less fabric and less time to make which costs less. A higher end design might take a day or two to produce because of intricate construction techniques. That time is money. So companies like H&M and Zara compromise the fit and construction to make more product within a given time frame to make more $$$.

I have to disagree, I don't think you can feel as comfortable in a shirt made by Zara than you can in one made by Polo. The fabric quality isn't even comparable.

Lastly, it's exactly a case of brands sacrificing quality for profit-margin. They do it because they are selling to people who don't care much about fashion or quality in their clothes. Those fast fashion brands (H&M, Zara) realized people didn't want to pay the prices of say Polo, but they wanted something similar. There are more of those people on this planet than there are who care about the quality and so on. It's the same as the Android going after people who aren't into the luxury and grand experience Apple offers. They want a simple product that does only the things they need it to. They don't need all of the bells and whistles. There is more money in those people then there are in the uptight, pretentious, aesthetic driven Apple customer(I'm one of them).

 

[Galian Beast]

How does one keep up with the newest and best Android phone? Theres a better one every week.lol.

I don't see it like that.

Android comes in a lot of different flavors and there are a lot of flagship/premiere android devices.

If you want a physical keyboard you probably want the Droid 4

If you want the highest specs available you probably want the Galaxy S3. If you don't like the design of the S3, you can also get the HTC One X. If you can't afford either of those you can get the Galaxy Nexus or HTC One S.

If you want a tablet like experience you have the Galaxy Note

If you want the flagship Google device and enjoy customizing to the greatest degree you probably want the Galaxy Nexus.

If battery life is most important to you, you probably want the Droid Razr Maxx


The idea that a new phone comes out every day that makes the phone you buy today obsolete, is overblown.

For instance the original Nexus, the Nexus One, has received a custom ice cream sandwich rom.

This phone came out in 2010.

Two to two and a half years is pretty good for a smart phone's life cycle. Especially with contracts being two years.

Lets say you pay 200 dollars for a phone on a 2 year contract. That is 16 dollars a month for two years for a top of the line android phone.

I'd say if you bought the Galaxy S3 today, it would be a top tier phone for at least 6-12 months. Probably not the greatest phone, but certainly up there.

Galaxy S2 is still a top tier phone for example. And we're looking at May 2011.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't see it like that.

Android comes in a lot of different flavors and there are a lot of flagship/premiere android devices.

If you want a physical keyboard you probably want the Droid 4

If you want the highest specs available you probably want the Galaxy S3. If you don't like the design of the S3, you can also get the HTC One X. If you can't afford either of those you can get the Galaxy Nexus or HTC One S.

If you want a tablet like experience you have the Galaxy Note

If you want the flagship Google device and enjoy customizing to the greatest degree you probably want the Galaxy Nexus.

If battery life is most important to you, you probably want the Droid Razr Maxx


The idea that a new phone comes out every day that makes the phone you buy today obsolete, is overblown.

For instance the original Nexus, the Nexus One, has received a custom ice cream sandwich rom.

This phone came out in 2010.

Two to two and a half years is pretty good for a smart phone's life cycle. Especially with contracts being two years.

Lets say you pay 200 dollars for a phone on a 2 year contract. That is 16 dollars a month for two years for a top of the line android phone.

I'd say if you bought the Galaxy S3 today, it would be a top tier phone for at least 6-12 months. Probably not the greatest phone, but certainly up there.

Galaxy S2 is still a top tier phone for example. And we're looking at May 2011.

But...but...I want it ALL and I want it NOW!

Seriously though, how about I want one that has the most storage for my 1000s of songs?

 

[Yeagermeister]

But...but...I want it ALL and I want it NOW!

Seriously though, how about I want one that has the most storage for my 1000s of songs?

Buy the phone you want then add an SD card that will be compatible with all the other phones and Android tablets.