Arlen Specter - You da man. (Cheatriots)

[Dalmations202]

As far as I can tell no laws were broken. How exactly is this feds business?

Best guess, like the NBA it is tied to organized crime.

 

[tyke1doe]

Spoken like a true apologist.

Just wanted to see how it felt to just disregard someone's opinion by declaring them "bitter", "homer", "apologist", or any blanket statement that suggests their opinion is invalid because they're just jealous losers.

I was surprised - I didn't enjoy it as much as you seem to.

Right, because we know politicians would never grandstand.

 

[tyke1doe]

Best guess, like the NBA it is tied to organized crime.

You did notice the word "crime" in your sentence didn't you?

Please tell me the crime involved in Spygate?

 

[theogt]

The word is "its," a possessive.

Yes, I know that.

Second, a Congressman can call an inquiry into anything using the pretense of law. But where's the antitrust violation here?

Who says there has to be an antitrust violation?

Third, Specter's comments are inaccurate.

"The NFL has a very preferred status in our country with their antitrust exemption. The American people are entitled to be sure about the integrity of the game. It's analogous to the CIA destruction of tapes. Or any time you have records destroyed.

First, there is a difference between destroying government documents and destroying personal or private documents. And last time I checked, the NFL wasn't a governmental entity.

Second, destruction of document only has application if a legal investigation has been initiated. Then if one destroys documents critical to an investigation, it becomes a criminal matter. Godell's actions had nothing to do with a criminal or civil investigation.

The word is "analagous," which means that it's (notice the use of the apostrophe for the contraction, rather than the possessive) similar, but not exact. How close of an analogy it is is up for debate, but is meaningless in this discussion.

Third, Specter's comments make little sense because banks and corporations destroy records all the time. The only time it would become an issue is if the companies were notified of an investigation and were specifically told not to destroy evidence crucial to that investigation.

My prediction is that nothing will come of this. But let the grandstanding continue.

Again, what does breaking the law have to do with this?

 

[coogrfan]

That's explained in the article. With that anti-trust exemption, anything they do is the Fed's business. If everything's not on the level, it's the government's job to clean it up - who else would you suggest do that?

You're giving Specter waaaaay too much credit here. He is now and has always been nothing more than a political gadfly. His sole interest is getting his name in the limelight.

 

[theebs]

Not what thread (or article) is about. Abort!

Oh no!! Oh no!! Crisis crisis.

We all know something stunk about them throwing the tapes away. You really think every team doesnt have some form of operation that stinks? You think the commish wants to open a can on worms on his gold mine of a league? I sure dont.

They got fined, they lost a first round draft pick. What good would releasing the rest of those tapes do? What if it was just more of the same?

Why stop there? Why isnt specter calling for the patriots training facility and main office to be ramsacked, I am sure belichick must have made copies, he has no idea what he is doing as a coach and needs those tapes desperately to figure out how to win.

I am sure behind the scenes every owner was given a different response than what the public got and I am sure they are satisfied with it and are moving on.

But then again, the patriots are sucky cheaters who are winning cause the refs give them games and they cheat on every play.

 

[superpunk]

You're giving Specter waaaaay too much credit here. He is now and has always been nothing more than a political gadfly. His sole interest is getting his name in the limelight.

I really don't care. If the NFL needs cleaned up - if this cluster-**** of a commissioner needs to be removed, because he continues to screw up a sport that means a TON to a huge percentage of Americans, then by all means the government SHOULD step in, because noone else has the power to.

Oh no!! Oh no!! Crisis crisis.

We all know something stunk about them throwing the tapes away. You really think every team doesnt have some form of operation that stinks? You think the commish wants to open a can on worms on his gold mine of a league? I sure dont.

They got fined, they lost a first round draft pick. What good would releasing the rest of those tapes do? What if it was just more of the same?

Why stop there? Why isnt specter calling for the patriots training facility and main office to be ramsacked, I am sure belichick must have made copies, he has no idea what he is doing as a coach and needs those tapes desperately to figure out how to win.

I am sure behind the scenes every owner was given a different response than what the public got and I am sure they are satisfied with it and are moving on.

But then again, the patriots are sucky cheaters who are winning cause the refs give them games and they cheat on every play.

*sigh* I'd enjoy seeing Goodell's feet held to the fire.

Anyone who wants to can continue to suck off the Patriots.

 

[THUMPER]

To be honest, Belichick should have been banned for life for cheating and the Pats should have lost ALL of their 1st round picks for the next 3 years (including ones they traded for). They should also have been fined $10M and that it comes out of their salary cap for 2008. Too harsh you say? Think about this for a minute...

During the recent Congressional hearings on steroids in MLB one of the committee members asked Selig why they were treating steroids the same as other drugs, meaning the "3-strikes" rule, when one affects the play on the field and the other doesn't. Selig didn't really have an answer to that (pretended he didn't hear it as usual) so the guy expounded on it a bit further stating: "You are basically saying that it is OK to cheat twice but not the third time." Selig and the union boss hemmed and hawed about it but never did answer the accusation.

The same is true in the NFL. With the way Goodell treated the Patriots it was essentially saying that you can cheat but that it will cost you something. The penalty was not much at all when you really put it into context though and there was really no incentive for any other team NOT to do what the Patriots did.

Had Goodell banned Belichick for life, taken away the Pat's ability to get any top draft picks for a few years and hit their cap hard other teams would be much more reluctant to cheat in this manner.

Again, if you think this is too harsh then remember this fact, the NFL had SPECIFICALLY informed every team that taping another team's signals was cheating and illegal. The Patriots and Belichick KNEW ahead of time that what they were doing was cheating yet they did it anyway. That should have gotten them a lot more than a slap on the wrist.

Mark my words, this WILL come back to bite Goodell in the butt before long.

 

[coogrfan]

I really don't care. If the NFL needs cleaned up - if this cluster-**** of a commissioner needs to be removed, because he continues to screw up a sport that means a TON to a huge percentage of Americans, then by all means the government SHOULD step in, because noone else has the power to.

Ohhhh-kay. I've seen no evidence that Goodell is screwing up anything, but whatever.

If you expect Specter to actually get something done (as oppposed to rattle his saber a bit and then move on to the next attention-op), you're in for a serious disappointment.

 

[theebs]

To be honest, Belichick should have been banned for life for cheating and the Pats should have lost ALL of their 1st round picks for the next 3 years (including ones they traded for). They should also have been fined $10M and that it comes out of their salary cap for 2008. Too harsh you say? Think about this for a minute...

why stop there. Why not remove the franchise from the league?

Does your same logic apply to mangini with the jets? He cheated too last year.

oh and are you going to strip the cowboys of their accomplishments in the 90s? Jimmy said he tried this with Dallas?

better find jimmy's old tapes to, I am sure they are at the ranch somewhere.

 

[coogrfan]

To be honest, Belichick should have been banned for life for cheating and the Pats should have lost ALL of their 1st round picks for the next 3 years (including ones they traded for). They should also have been fined $10M and that it comes out of their salary cap for 2008. Too harsh you say? Think about this for a minute...

During the recent Congressional hearings on steroids in MLB one of the committee members asked Selig why they were treating steroids the same as other drugs, meaning the "3-strikes" rule, when one affects the play on the field and the other doesn't. Selig didn't really have an answer to that (pretended he didn't hear it as usual) so the guy expounded on it a bit further stating: "You are basically saying that it is OK to cheat twice but not the third time." Selig and the union boss hemmed and hawed about it but never did answer the accusation.

The same is true in the NFL. With the way Goodell treated the Patriots it was essentially saying that you can cheat but that it will cost you something. The penalty was not much at all when you really put it into context though and there was really no incentive for any other team NOT to do what the Patriots did.

Had Goodell banned Belichick for life, taken away the Pat's ability to get any top draft picks for a few years and hit their cap hard other teams would be much more reluctant to cheat in this manner.

Again, if you think this is too harsh then remember this fact, the NFL had SPECIFICALLY informed every team that taping another team's signals was cheating and illegal. The Patriots and Belichick KNEW ahead of time that what they were doing was cheating yet they did it anyway. That should have gotten them a lot more than a slap on the wrist.

Mark my words, this WILL come back to bite Goodell in the butt before long.

Wait a second-losing a first round draft pick is nothing? Do you really believe that?

 

[superpunk]

Ohhhh-kay. I've seen no evidence that Goodell is screwing up anything, but whatever.

If you expect Specter to actually get something done (as oppposed to rattle his saber a bit and then move on to the next attention-op), you're in for a serious disappointment.

You don't like Specter, no doubt for some bull**** political reason. Lovely. I really don't care how you feel about him.

This was the first step in MLB really getting it's feet held to the fire and cleaning up their league. I suspect if this gets underway, Goodell will be removed as commissioner, or a firm set of standards will be established that prevents the commissioner from acting as a dictator, as Goodell has done since his entry to the position - answering to noone, and levying punishments on a whim and a fancy.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Spoken like a true apologist.

Just wanted to see how it felt to just disregard someone's opinion by declaring them "bitter", "homer", "apologist", or any blanket statement that suggests their opinion is invalid because they're just jealous losers.

I was surprised - I didn't enjoy it as much as you seem to.

:laugh2: This thread needs Nors. (Though others are trying hard to take up the slack.)

Of course this is ridiculous grandstanding by Specter, just like it was when the Pats-Giants game was going to be on NFLN.

But who cares. In this case it's welcomed. No one else has a chance of getting any attention on this subject.

 

[theebs]

I really don't care. If the NFL needs cleaned up - if this cluster-**** of a commissioner needs to be removed, because he continues to screw up a sport that means a TON to a huge percentage of Americans, then by all means the government SHOULD step in, because noone else has the power to.


*sigh* I'd enjoy seeing Goodell's feet held to the fire.

Anyone who wants to can continue to suck off the Patriots.

Dont you think that if the owners were in the dark on what was on those tapes they would have made a fit? I sure do. If there was such damning evidence on any of the tapes I am sure at least one of the other owners would have demanded more info, more viewing of or more releasing of the tapes.

I am sure the owners were told behind the scenes and were content with the result.

What did you want goodell to do? Release every second of every tape? what would that accomplish?

 

[theogt]

Wait a second-losing a first round draft pick is nothing? Do you really believe that?

It's not nothing, but I don't think it was sufficient. I think at a minimum Belichick should have spent some time on his recliner on Sundays.

 

[tyke1doe]

Yes, I know that.

Then why didn't you use the appropriate word?

Who says there has to be an antitrust violation?

So, in essence, you're saying that this is merely an attempt at grandstanding?

If Specter knows this is not a violation of antitrust, then why a judicial inquiry?

Simply to get an answer from Godell?

So if an executive refuses to answer a senator, we should hold judicial inquiries?

The word is "analagous," which means that it's (notice the use of the apostrophe for the contraction, rather than the possessive) similar, but not exact. How close of an analogy it is is up for debate, but is meaningless in this discussion.

With all due respect, I disagree. He offered an analogy and a specific one at that. He wants us to believe that destroying CIA tapes is the same as destroying NFL tapes. If he didn't, he wouldn't have used the analogy.
But it's not the same because CIA tapes and documents are government documents.

Second, he makes a point of criticizing the destruction of documents. But documents are destroyed all the time. You have to determine when and why documents should not be destroyed, which he doesn't distinguish in his example.

Thus, it is a very poor example.

Again, what does breaking the law have to do with this?

What is the purpose of a judicial inquiry? I would hope it is to uncover wrongdoing or illegality. If not, it's just a waste of taxpayers money to hold one only to hear Godell say, "We had the tapes destroyed so they could never been in circulation again."

Is that how you want your tax dollars spent, especially when we've already determined that the Pats cheated and cheat in previous years?

I don't.

 

[theebs]

It's not nothing, but I don't think it was sufficient. I think at a minimum Belichick should have spent some time on his recliner on Sundays.

he should have been suspended at least 1 game I think also. Losing the first rounder was more damning to the franchise though. It just so happens that the pats are so well run, they had two 1st rounders. What are you going to do?

 

[THUMPER]

why stop there. Why not remove the franchise from the league?

Does your same logic apply to mangini with the jets? He cheated too last year.

oh and are you going to strip the cowboys of their accomplishments in the 90s? Jimmy said he tried this with Dallas?

better find jimmy's old tapes to, I am sure they are at the ranch somewhere.

Now you are being absurd and you know it. What Jimmy did was PRIOR to the ban on taping was instituted. Lots of coaches did it back in the day but found that it didn't help that much unless it was against a division rival that you would face twice each season.

Mangini wasn't caught, Belichick was.

It was not the franchise that cheated but the head coach. If you can prove complicity by Bob Kraft then by all means he should be punished as well but that would be very difficult to do.

The fact is that Belichick knowingly and intentionally cheated and should not have been allowed to continue as an NFL employee.

If I were caught cheating at work they would fire me, that's the bottom line.

 

[tyke1doe]

To be honest, Belichick should have been banned for life for cheating and the Pats should have lost ALL of their 1st round picks for the next 3 years (including ones they traded for). They should also have been fined $10M and that it comes out of their salary cap for 2008. Too harsh you say? Think about this for a minute...

During the recent Congressional hearings on steroids in MLB one of the committee members asked Selig why they were treating steroids the same as other drugs, meaning the "3-strikes" rule, when one affects the play on the field and the other doesn't. Selig didn't really have an answer to that (pretended he didn't hear it as usual) so the guy expounded on it a bit further stating: "You are basically saying that it is OK to cheat twice but not the third time." Selig and the union boss hemmed and hawed about it but never did answer the accusation.

The same is true in the NFL. With the way Goodell treated the Patriots it was essentially saying that you can cheat but that it will cost you something. The penalty was not much at all when you really put it into context though and there was really no incentive for any other team NOT to do what the Patriots did.

Had Goodell banned Belichick for life, taken away the Pat's ability to get any top draft picks for a few years and hit their cap hard other teams would be much more reluctant to cheat in this manner.

Again, if you think this is too harsh then remember this fact, the NFL had SPECIFICALLY informed every team that taping another team's signals was cheating and illegal. The Patriots and Belichick KNEW ahead of time that what they were doing was cheating yet they did it anyway. That should have gotten them a lot more than a slap on the wrist.

Mark my words, this WILL come back to bite Goodell in the butt before long.

First, aren't steroids, outside of prescription and proper distribution, illegal? I can see why Congress would be involved in that case.

Second, taping signals is not illegal in a prosecutorial sense. It is only illegal within the framework of the NFL's policy.

Two totally different issues.

 

[skinsscalper]

To be honest, Belichick should have been banned for life for cheating and the Pats should have lost ALL of their 1st round picks for the next 3 years (including ones they traded for). They should also have been fined $10M and that it comes out of their salary cap for 2008. Too harsh you say? Think about this for a minute...

During the recent Congressional hearings on steroids in MLB one of the committee members asked Selig why they were treating steroids the same as other drugs, meaning the "3-strikes" rule, when one affects the play on the field and the other doesn't. Selig didn't really have an answer to that (pretended he didn't hear it as usual) so the guy expounded on it a bit further stating: "You are basically saying that it is OK to cheat twice but not the third time." Selig and the union boss hemmed and hawed about it but never did answer the accusation.

The same is true in the NFL. With the way Goodell treated the Patriots it was essentially saying that you can cheat but that it will cost you something. The penalty was not much at all when you really put it into context though and there was really no incentive for any other team NOT to do what the Patriots did.

Had Goodell banned Belichick for life, taken away the Pat's ability to get any top draft picks for a few years and hit their cap hard other teams would be much more reluctant to cheat in this manner.

Again, if you think this is too harsh then remember this fact, the NFL had SPECIFICALLY informed every team that taping another team's signals was cheating and illegal. The Patriots and Belichick KNEW ahead of time that what they were doing was cheating yet they did it anyway. That should have gotten them a lot more than a slap on the wrist.

Mark my words, this WILL come back to bite Goodell in the butt before long.

Exactly!!!!!! The Patriots also claimed they never used the tapes to make in game adjustments. I don't buy that for a minute either. It's well known that teams change the defensive hand-signals from game to game for the sole purpose of not giving game film material to future opponents. If the tapes weren't used for in game adjustments what could they possibly be used for to gain a competitive advantage. And they damn well were getting a competitive advantage out of it, or they wouldn't have risked getting caught after being warned ahead of time. Don't forget the the team that Belicheck got caught taping actually beat the Pats the previous season, with arguably less talent.