Audio: Choice on Irvin - Talks Communication - 12/22/08

[RainMan]

Do you really think a guy who would try to pass off a bye-week as a playoff win would have the discipline to follow any of your suggestions?

I'm not a fan of Garrett whatsoever right now. I think he was touted too highly for a solid but unspectacular job last season, and has done nothing to deserve being the highest paid assistant in football.

But this team's biggest coaching problem CLEARLY is Wade Phillips. Phillips the defensive coordinator is outstanding. It's not his fault Hamlin couldn't make a play last week. But Phillips the head coach, in my opinion, is wrong on nearly every philosophical emphasis he has brought to this organization.

He gives less focus to the special teams than Parcells, believes in giving players too much time off, isn't worried about making this a fundamentally sound team, says the penalties are "on me," doesn't harp enough on Romo and Co. for unnecessary turnovers, etc.

It's downright mind boggling to me, and I apologize if I'm highjacking this thread. But if Choice talks of a lack of organization on offense, it should come as no surprise. Sure, I'm absolutely sure Garrett is part of the problem. But would you expect a mistake-prone, who-cares-about-the-little-details team to be organized anywhere?

Rant over. I feel better.

 

[Arch Stanton]

I'm not a fan of Garrett whatsoever right now. I think he was touted too highly for a solid but unspectacular job last season, and has done nothing to deserve being the highest paid assistant in football.

But this team's biggest coaching problem CLEARLY is Wade Phillips. Phillips the defensive coordinator is outstanding. It's not his fault Hamlin couldn't make a play last week. But Phillips the head coach, in my opinion, is wrong on nearly every philosophical emphasis he has brought to this organization.

He gives less focus to the special teams than Parcells, believes in giving players too much time off, isn't worried about making this a fundamentally sound team, says the penalties are "on me," doesn't harp enough on Romo and Co. for unnecessary turnovers, etc.

It's downright mind boggling to me, and I apologize if I'm highjacking this thread. But if Choice talks of a lack of organization on offense, it should come as no surprise. Sure, I'm absolutely sure Garrett is part of the problem. But would you expect a mistake-prone, who-cares-about-the-little-details team to be organized anywhere?

Rant over. I feel better.

Money post.

 

[RainMan]

The way this staff has been assembled in Dallas has been terrible since Jimmy Johnson left. A head coach should be allowed to choose his assistants. Not have them "gently suggested" to him by the owner/GM or in the case of Garrett, be like marrying a woman with baggage.

You're absolutely right.

The other beef I have with the way this coaching staff was assembled? We started making progress under Parcells, but never really got to see him finish the job since he bailed on us after just half a season with a legitimate QB. But instead of handing the reigns to someone of his school of thought -- someone "in house" who could continue the team in the direction it was headed -- we essentially allowed nearly every assistant from the Parcells era to leave in no more than one season, instead handing the team to someone who is almost diametrically opposed to Parcells in every key fundamental belief.

Parcells emphasized smart football -- no penalties, turnovers, winning time of possession, winning "hidden" yards, being good on special teams, etc. Phillips never talks -- and clearly never emphasizes -- ANY of that.

Yes, I realize Parcells did a less-than-anticipated job here. Like I said, he bailed on us, and in his last season clearly seemed uninspired. But he also only had a legitimate quarterback for half of one season of his four years here, and who knows what could have become if he continued molding us.

I also realize the team tired of him and think it might have been good he left when he did. So no sour grapes there. No blaming Jerry. It might have very well been a blessing in disguise.

But my point remains -- we should have kept some semblance of Parcells' influence inside the organization, preferably within the coaching ranks. Parcells might have been a crusty old hard ***, but Sparano and any other number of assistants might not have been.

Sorry for yet another rant. In my opinion, this is just an example of another coaching miscue and a subtle flaw in the way the organization has been handled.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I can think of two small ones from Saturday Nights game.

Ouch!

I may need therapy to get over those...

 

[MichaelWinicki]

True dat. But hey we're the best walkthrough team Wade's ever had!

Maybe Wade's problem is that he's "the son of thousand fathers".

What do you think?

 

[BAT]

Re: the complication on offense and the constant shotgun and the reading of the defense until the last second... Sometimes I wonder if Garrett didn't study a lot of what New England did under Brady over the offseason and try to implement a lot of the same things. Because that's about the only other really top team I can think of that does all this stuff the same way.

Personally, I'd like to see us line up in simpler sets, put Romo under center, and hand off and run play action off that like the Giants and Carolina and Tennessee do. Maybe for years we didn't have the O-line for more basic football, but now we do, or should.

It just seems like RJ unnecessarily overcomplicates things and ends up outsmarting himself. Why not just run it right at people and pass off the play action?

Ray Lewis actually said before the game that the Cowboys play one of the most vanilla offenses in the league.


Similar comments were made when Norve / Zampese were running the offenses in the 90's. The biggest difference IMO is execution. Really does not matter if the offense is simple, or complicated, if you execute.


The 90's teams were disciplined and executed in a machine-like manner. They were far from perfect, but their performance was usually more consistent and methodical. The same stupid mistakes, turnovers and untimely penalties are not what I remember anyway.

 

[cowboyjoe]

Choice on Irvin - Talks Communication - 12/22/08
Choice on Irvin Show
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The problem I have is that this offense never looks 'comfortable' anymore.

Romo is always just beating the play clock. And he's constantly directing traffic when guys are leaving the huddle.

Choice has me worried. Why doesn't this team have all the blocking schemes down at this point in time, it's Week 16 not training camp!!!

That BS is on the coaches. This team is undisciplined and you can't convince me of anything otherwise.

I know it's a broken record but this team better hope all the talent they have came over the lack of discipline on Sunday. Because anyone thinks this team isn't going to make some dumb mistakes on Sunday you are just kidding yourself.
__________________


D C, I agree with you totally, here is the problem, wade wants to treat the players like family and professionals, and thats what the players want, but the players dont act llike professionals. When you jump offsides on defense, miss blocking on pass protection, have to have the QB direct traffic before snap of the ball. Have the center presnap the ball before he is suppose too, commit the most penalities each game in the NFL each week, then you arent professionals and you shouldnt be expected to be treated like professionals.

YOU need a coach that will kick your rear end when you keep committ stupid penalities. And as far as the veteran players that were at the ceremony after the game, when you as a player cant get up for that, but look sluggish on offense, keep making mistakes and stink on offense like T O said you didnt, then you have no fire, or gumption. All you want in reality is a paycheck.

Michael Irvin said it best, in another game when the Cowboys defense stopped a team on a goal line stand, you as players on offense should say to yourselves, ok dawg, I have your back, and you go out and make a long playing drive. How many times did this cowboys defense stop the ravens from scoring touchdowns, and how many times did the offense till the 4th quarter make a long playing drive. Nada zip. Thats the problem, there is no accountablity of this team to each other, to want to do your job like you should. And that all starts in training camp, and during the week in practice. But when the head coach gives you time off, extra days and you dont put in that time to work and practice, to study film, then its on you as players as well as the coaches.

THATS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM, THE COACHES THAT HAVE NO GRIT AND SAND TO KICK PLAYERS REAR END WHEN IT NEEDS TO BE DONE, AND THE PLAYERS WHOM ARENT PROFESSIONALS, AND WANT TO JUST GO OUT ON THE FIELD AND EXPECT TO WIN! WITHOUT WORKING AND PRACTICE AND STUDY TIME!

 

[sacase]

I am pretty sure the NFLPA won't allow players to get fined for mistakes and penalties, which is probably why you don't hear about guys getting fined for this stuff.

Recievers breaking the huddle early is the norm. All they REALLY need to know is the play, besides we always had the furthest to go so we had to leave early. But seriously half the time recievers can barely hear the snap count so they usally move when the ball is snapped. A reciever should never be off sides or never false start. After that is what route do I run, who do I key on and who do I block/run off.

As far as the mistakes its a little late for this but if I was wade I would run the crap out of the team. I would make them go through a normal practice and then I would go over the mistakes from the previous game. I would run them for the mistakes. 5 yard penalty is half the field 10 yard penalty is the whole field. 15 yards is down and back. Oh and the player doesn't run by himself, the WHOLE unit runs. Group punishment can work wonders sometimes. If you slack on the runs then you earn more for your squad. Make them uncomfortable.

I don't mind giving days off to vets who are performing and who need it, sometimes they need to rest their legs or bodies.

Some people have this false idea of what a football player should do, its crazy sometimes what people expect.

 

[RainMan]

Ray Lewis actually said before the game that the Cowboys play one of the most vanilla offenses in the league.


Similar comments were made when Norve / Zampese were running the offenses in the 90's. The biggest difference IMO is execution. Really does not matter if the offense is simple, or complicated, if you execute.


The 90's teams were disciplined and executed in a machine-like manner. They were far from perfect, but their performance was usually more consistent and methodical. The same stupid mistakes, turnovers and untimely penalties are not what I remember anyway.

And I blame both the coaches and players for our lack of execution. I don't think we have the smartest (in terms of football execution; not scholastically) players, but I also see a coaching staff that seems almost uninterested in trying to make them a more focused, less mistake-prone team.

I doubt we'll ever consistently sit in the top percentile of least-penalized teams. But I absolutely think Phillips could do a better job than he he has with his "Don't worry about penalties; they're on me" approach.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Ray Lewis actually said before the game that the Cowboys play one of the most vanilla offenses in the league.


Similar comments were made when Norve / Zampese were running the offenses in the 90's. The biggest difference IMO is execution. Really does not matter if the offense is simple, or complicated, if you execute.

I guess what I really meant was not the passing routes, but less shotgun and less two and three fakes before we do something. You know, the old shotgun/fake handoff/fake slant/real handoff play.

Something about being in the shotgun all the time feels to me like we're trying to trick the defense into thinking it's a pass play even on run plays. It feels like we throw it most of the time, and then sometimes we cross it up and hand it off on the shotgun draw. Maybe that's just cosmetic, but it gives off the feel of a finesse, tricky offense to me. I would rather see us line up with Romo under center and blast away, then occasionally play-action pass off that... Espcecially considering how Gurode's snaps look like they're filled with helium half the time.

Maybe Romo's hand is still hurting when he takes the snap from center -- that would be a reasonable excuse for all the shotgun. But I'd think he'd be healed by now.

 

[cowboyjoe]

some of the players act like winning should be given to them on a silver platter, and they shouldnt have to work for it. That really bugs the heck out of me. Its like Randy White said the other night, the cowboy players have a new slate now, now they have to go out and win it the hard way. They could have won it the easy way, but they wanted it on a silver platter.

Randy went on to say, the players should be mad as heck, and go out and give it to the eagels but good, and show what the players are made of and prove people wrong. That they are winners and really want to win. Randy went on to say, that if the players dont win and show that they want to win, then they are in the wrong business and should try another profession.

Its on the players and coaches now, no more excuses, time to put up or shut up.

 

[Alexander]

You're absolutely right.

The other beef I have with the way this coaching staff was assembled? We started making progress under Parcells, but never really got to see him finish the job since he bailed on us after just half a season with a legitimate QB. But instead of handing the reigns to someone of his school of thought -- someone "in house" who could continue the team in the direction it was headed -- we essentially allowed nearly every assistant from the Parcells era to leave in no more than one season, instead handing the team to someone who is almost diametrically opposed to Parcells in every key fundamental belief.

Parcells emphasized smart football -- no penalties, turnovers, winning time of possession, winning "hidden" yards, being good on special teams, etc. Phillips never talks -- and clearly never emphasizes -- ANY of that.

Yes, I realize Parcells did a less-than-anticipated job here. Like I said, he bailed on us, and in his last season clearly seemed uninspired. But he also only had a legitimate quarterback for half of one season of his four years here, and who knows what could have become if he continued molding us.

I also realize the team tired of him and think it might have been good he left when he did. So no sour grapes there. No blaming Jerry. It might have very well been a blessing in disguise.

But my point remains -- we should have kept some semblance of Parcells' influence inside the organization, preferably within the coaching ranks. Parcells might have been a crusty old hard ***, but Sparano and any other number of assistants might not have been.

Sorry for yet another rant. In my opinion, this is just an example of another coaching miscue and a subtle flaw in the way the organization has been handled.

You take the good with the bad. Sparano is someone we should have strived to keep. Granted, maybe he did not want to stay and nobody would keep him from having an opportunity in Miami. I would not want to stay if I was passed over for a head coaching opportunity and basically was stripped of credit once Garrett was inserted. The same goes for Pasqualoni and Bowles. Phillips, since he was the choice, should have been able to decide who he kept. And he did. There were some that needed to go, like Rodgers. We should have tried to hang on to DeHaven.

I am not too upset with who we lost per se. It was to be expected when you change head coaches. What I did not care for was the complete turnaround from what Coach Parcells tried to instill. Instead, we went in the opposite direction so some players were "happy" (like Ellis, Marcus Spears and others) and went back to the lunatics running the asylum. But that is on Jerry Jones. He ultimately is the one who fosters and encourages the culture. He decided what direction he wanted and that ultimately included Wade Phillips and his management style.

 

[RainMan]

some of the players act like winning should be given to them on a silver platter, and they shouldnt have to work for it. That really bugs the heck out of me. Its like Randy White said the other night, the cowboy players have a new slate now, now they have to go out and win it the hard way. They could have won it the easy way, but they wanted it on a silver platter.

Randy went on to say, the players should be mad as heck, and go out and give it to the eagels but good, and show what the players are made of and prove people wrong. That they are winners and really want to win. Randy went on to say, that if the players dont win and show that they want to win, then they are in the wrong business and should try another profession.

Its on the players and coaches now, no more excuses, time to put up or shut up.

Players -- nearly all of them, and on any team -- will get away with what you allow them to. It's why most historically good coaches don't have the "player friendly" label and consider "player friendly" to be a label handed to coaches who allow the inmates to run the asylum.

Unfortunately, I think that's what we have here. As Tom Landry once said, and I'll butcher the quote but the meaning remains the same, coaching is about getting players to do what they don't want to do.

It's natural, when allowed, to search for the easy way. And our coaches have opened the floodgates for that here, I'm afraid.

 

[RainMan]

You take the good with the bad. Sparano is someone we should have strived to keep. Granted, maybe he did not want to stay and nobody would keep him from having an opportunity in Miami. I would not want to stay if I was passed over for a head coaching opportunity and basically was stripped of credit once Garrett was inserted. The same goes for Pasqualoni and Bowles. Phillips, since he was the choice, should have been able to decide who he kept. And he did. There were some that needed to go, like Rodgers. We should have tried to hang on to DeHaven.

I am not too upset with who we lost per se. It was to be expected when you change head coaches. What I did not care for was the complete turnaround from what Coach Parcells tried to instill. Instead, we went in the opposite direction so some players were "happy" (like Ellis, Marcus Spears and others) and went back to the lunatics running the asylum. But that is on Jerry Jones. He ultimately is the one who fosters and encourages the culture. He decided what direction he wanted and that ultimately included Wade Phillips and his management style.

Yeah, I entirely agree, and I think the principle of our two points is the same.

I agree that Phillips, once he was named the coach, rightfully should have been given the choice to keep who he wanted (although he was handed Garrett, Sparano, etc...). I think my argument is more that we should have strived to hand over the head coaching reigns to someone in-house, if for no other reason than to keep the core principles of what Parcells instilled. Yeah, go a route of a little less of a hard *** and someone who wasn't burned out and always frowned, but someone who viewed football from the same set of eyes.

Not someone who undermines the importance of practice and seems to strive only to have all his players healthy on game day, as unprepared as they might be come that time.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Ouch!

I may need therapy to get over those...

Me too. I'm still pissed.

I just hope this team has "forgetten" Saturdays game.

No hangover. Just win. Please.