'Big Bang' actually 'Big Chill,' new theory says

[trickblue]

I have to disagree. If you go through the works of religious scholars and philosophers like St. Thomas Aquinas, you read a lot about the intersection of faith and reason. One of the things that comes out of that is contrasting forms of knowledge. Religious faith isn't mere trust, it is considered to be "revealed knowledge". It is truth, absolute and certain. Knowledge based on reason is different, it is knowledge based on probability.

So, when I'm toggling my light switch my faith, my trust, that the light will turn on is faith based on reason. My faith is falliable and my knowledge uncertain. Religious faith is neither of those things.

Where as a failed result of going 10 days without my light switch working properly will make me stop flipping the switch, something else happens with religious faith. When confronted with unbearable circumstances, Job's faith remains. When given an order to sacrifice his son, Abraham's faith remains. When Daniel is thrown to the lions, his faith remains. Religious faith is faith that is contingent on changing circumstances because it is faith in truth, not probability, not reason. It is often faith in spite of reason.

Religious faith is much stronger than conventional trust and I absolutely don't think they can be considered the same thing.

You are falling into the adage that faith is always religious... it is not...

I stated earlier that both sides have warped the term... faith is faith... it is not a religious term...

You are mixing the noun faith with the verb faith... faith is a verb, primarily... and as you stated earlier, trust....

I maintain that belief in science is faith/trust...

 

[trickblue]

Ah, nevermind.

U mad bro?

You post a long long diatribe, then replace it with this because you consider me ignorant?

At what point have I been disrespectful. I offer an alternative and you treat me like a dunce...

I am educated... as you are... why the disrespect? Have I ever been disrespectful to you?

You have NO idea of my beliefs... but you want to force yours on me...

I digress, you talk down to me and infer I am ignorant...

I am MORE than happy to talk utilities with you... want to talk pt/ct ratios? kVar? kVarh? Voltage? System Frequency? Billing? kWh? pcf? Power Factor? Intervals? MDM? ODM? Demand Response? On Demand? Smart Grid? AMR? AMI? PLC? PCN? HAN? Balance? RTU? TF?

I can go on...

My point is that you came in to belittle in a thread that had some healthy posts going on...

I could laugh you out of this forum on my industry... but I wouldn't... I would engage you and attempt to answer your questions...

You? Not so much...

 

[SaltwaterServr]

I maintain that belief in science is faith/trust...

It has nothing to do with faith and trust, only what can be observed, quantified, verified, and replicated. As a scientist you have a reasoned expectation to believe that the work you're citing is true to the best of the previous experimenter's ability and you have a reasoned expectation to work to disprove it as well.

As a research scientist, you take absolutely nothing on faith. It isn't part of the vernacular, and very nearly an obscenity. If I walked into a working lab tomorrow morning, started designing an experimental model, submitted it, was asked to defend the design, and my best answer was "I have faith it will work", I'd get laughed out of the room.

 

[masomenos]

You are falling into the adage that faith is always religious... it is not...

I stated earlier that both sides have warped the term... faith is faith... it is not a religious term...

You are mixing the noun faith with the verb faith... faith is a verb, primarily... and as you stated earlier, trust....

I maintain that belief in science is faith/trust...

No, I've already said that faith is a common element in our day-to-day lives. I just don't think religious faith is the same as more conventional faith.

Faith isn't a verb though, it's always a noun. You show faith. You have faith. You reestablish faith. You can't say, "I faith you" like you can say, "I trust you".

 

[trickblue]

No, I've already said that faith is a common element in our day-to-day lives. I just don't think religious faith is the same as more conventional faith.

Faith isn't a verb though, it's always a noun. You show faith. You have faith. You reestablish faith. You can't say, "I faith you" like you can say, "I trust you".

It's a verb... and a noun... like many words in our language...

 

[SaltwaterServr]

U mad bro?

You post a long long diatribe, then replace it with this because you consider me ignorant?

At what point have I been disrespectful. I offer an alternative and you treat me like a dunce...

I am educated... as you are... why the disrespect? Have I ever been disrespectful to you?

You have NO idea of my beliefs... but you want to force yours on me...

I digress, you talk down to me and infer I am ignorant...

I am MORE than happy to talk utilities with you... want to talk pt/ct ratios? kVar? kVarh? Voltage? System Frequency? Billing? kWh? pcf? Power Factor? Intervals? MDM? ODM? Demand Response? On Demand? Smart Grid? AMR? AMI? PLC? PCN? HAN? Balance? RTU? TF?

I can go on...

My point is that you came in to belittle in a thread that had some healthy posts going on...

I could laugh you out of this forum on my industry... but I wouldn't... I would engage you and attempt to answer your questions...

You? Not so much...

You've been disrespectful without even realizing it. "Faith" is a foul and disgusting word when it comes to scientific research. The example of Pluto you tried to use was born out of ignorance. Pluto's been disputed as being a planet since the day it was discovered but you use it as a fact that science is based on erroneous "faith" that what we consider truth today will be invariably false or greatly modified tomorrow. The position you're debating from is fundamentally flawed because you're ascribing expectations of observed behavior to "faith".

You know why I don't discuss utilities? Because I don't know **** about them. That's the difference here. I know enough to know that I don't know anything about it whereas...

 

[masomenos]

It's a verb... and a noun... like many words in our language...

It's not - I even checked my big, hard-bound physical dictionary. Can you use it as a verb?

 

[SaltwaterServr]

It's not - I even checked my big, hard-bound physical dictionary. Can you use it as a verb?

Nope. It's only a noun.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith?s=t

 

[trickblue]

You've been disrespectful without even realizing it. "Faith" is a foul and disgusting word when it comes to scientific research. The example of Pluto you tried to use was born out of ignorance. Pluto's been disputed as being a planet since the day it was discovered but you use it as a fact that science is based on erroneous "faith" that what we consider truth today will be invariably false or greatly modified tomorrow. The position you're debating from is fundamentally flawed because you're ascribing expectations of observed behavior to "faith".

You know why I don't discuss utilities? Because I don't know **** about them. That's the difference here. I know enough to know that I don't know anything about it whereas...

Faith is foul and disgusting... interesting since we all use it on a daily basis...

So let me ask you something... you consider me foul and ignorant, but instead of engaging me, you attempt to make fun of me...

That is the difference between you and me... I stated if you wanted to talk utilities, I would try to help you out... you belittle and attempt to make fun of me... n'est pas?

I have not stated any beliefs in this thread... I have only played Devil's Advocate to absolute truth...

I have stated from the beginning in this thread that nothing is absolute. The retorts have been that I am an idiot, ignorant etc...

I'm not an idiot even though you have implied I am... my family has a doctorate, RN and 3 Masters...

Why not share knowledge and discuss things?

 

[trickblue]

It's not - I even checked my big, hard-bound physical dictionary. Can you use it as a verb?

Nope. It's only a noun.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith?s=t

My point exactly... semantics... having faith is not just nounville...

Do you golf or play golf?

 

[trickblue]

You've been disrespectful without even realizing it.

So, again, I am ignorant?

 

[masomenos]

My point exactly... semantics... having faith is not just nounville...

Do you golf or play golf?

Trick, can you provide a sentence where faith is used as a verb?

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Faith is foul and disgusting... interesting since we all use it on a daily basis...

Within the context of scientific understanding, yes. However, you've missed the point I was trying to get across and convoluted it into something else entirely.

So let me ask you something... you consider me foul and ignorant, but instead of engaging me, you attempt to make fun of me...

Again, missing the point. I consider the concept of faith being a cornerstone of science foul, borne of ignorance, and borderline insulting. Twice in this one post already you've misconstrued concepts and ideas I'm conveying and yet you want to be engaged???

That is the difference between you and me... I stated if you wanted to talk utilities, I would try to help you out... you belittle and attempt to make fun of me... n'est pas?

This follows along with the same reasoning that I don't bother debating the Second Amendment with any passion with a gun control advocate or debating global warming here with those who are diametrically opposed to the evidence as presented in peer-reviewed journals. The positions are too far apart and no one is going to convince either side of anything.

You've come off as ignorant of the scientific method and the thought process behind science as well. Moreover, your example of Pluto reinforced that you didn't have any idea what you were talking about in your own chosen example. Furthermore, you've shown twice in this post I'm quoting that you can't figure out what I'm saying.

I have not stated any beliefs in this thread... I have only played Devil's Advocate to absolute truth...

I have stated from the beginning in this thread that nothing is absolute. The retorts have been that I am an idiot, ignorant etc...

You've stated plenty of beliefs in how the world of science works. You've described them from your own point of bias and have done so while showing no grasp of the concepts within your own example.

I'm not an idiot even though you have implied I am... my family has a doctorate, RN and 3 Masters...

Why not share knowledge and discuss things?

Because you keep missing the point wholly.

Golf is both a verb and a noun.

Faith is only a noun. Why should I bother to further annoy myself with this when you express such ignorance that could be so easily dispelled if you even bothered to do a quick search on what is and isn't a verb and noun??? :bang2:

My point exactly... semantics... having faith is not just nounville...

Do you golf or play golf?

What??? Semantics has nothing to do with it. Did you completely miss that point as well? Sheesh.

 

[trickblue]

Trick, can you provide a sentence where faith is used as a verb?

Again... you are playing semantics... faith is a noun by definition but very much a verb by practice...

Let's go back to the original thread... we have a paradigm shift on science...

Bait and switch does not change the fact that "Scientific Fact" on Monday does not match "Scientific Fact" on Tuesday...

As I have said, my whole point has been that science is not absolute and evolves... what I have gotten in return is insults and ugly pm's...

You guys want to focus one one thing while ignoring the elephant in the room... do you not see this?

 

[trickblue]

Within the context of scientific understanding, yes. However, you've missed the point I was trying to get across and convoluted it into something else entirely.

Why are you ignoring the fact you made fun of me? You sure are selective in your responses...

Again, missing the point. I consider the concept of faith being a cornerstone of science foul, borne of ignorance, and borderline insulting. Twice in this one post already you've misconstrued concepts and ideas I'm conveying and yet you want to be engaged???

Confused

This follows along with the same reasoning that I don't bother debating the Second Amendment with any passion with a gun control advocate or debating global warming here with those who are diametrically opposed to the evidence as presented in peer-reviewed journals. The positions are too far apart and no one is going to convince either side of anything.

Good decision...

You've come off as ignorant of the scientific method and the thought process behind science as well. Moreover, your example of Pluto reinforced that you didn't have any idea what you were talking about in your own chosen example. Furthermore, you've shown twice in this post I'm quoting that you can't figure out what I'm saying.

And you are so indoctrinated in your agenda that you can't see what the Hell I am talking about...

You've stated plenty of beliefs in how the world of science works. You've described them from your own point of bias and have done so while showing no grasp of the concepts within your own example.

My whole point is that people arguing absolutes look like fools... how do you not get this?

Because you keep missing the point wholly.

No... you pick out key words... YOU don't get it...[/quote]

Golf is both a verb and a noun.

Faith is only a noun. Why should I bother to further annoy myself with this when you express such ignorance that could be so easily dispelled if you even bothered to do a quick search on what is and isn't a verb and noun??? :bang2:

I apologize... you are the smartest guy in the world... I guess words don't evolve... I defer to you as you are the smartest guy in the world...

I have still not personally insulted you... why do you continue to insult me?

I think the thing that pisses me off most about this thread is that I always liked you, but you have demonstrated yourself to be an arrogant, pretentious bastid with little regards for other views...

I have a different opinion (or do I) and you proceed to attempt to dress me down...

You can't provide any banter, but rather "I'M RIGHT"... it's sad, really...

You define intolerant to the hilt... it's sad really... as you have no idea what I believe... just diggin' in against anybody you perceive to be different...

I will pray for you... if I believe in a God that is...

 

[masomenos]

I'm not just playing semantics but I'm tired and I have faith D ) that this thread will be closed when I revisit it. Trick, I enjoyed our debate. Have a great night.

 

[trickblue]

I'm not just playing semantics but I'm tired and I have faith D ) that this thread will be closed when I revisit it. Trick, I enjoyed our debate. Have a great night.

As you know, Mas... I am a reasonable guy...

I get tired of being pigeonholed... the assumption that I am closed-minded pisses me off...

I believe in gay marriage... why? because the Constitution deems all men are created equal...

In my opinion, marriage is a religious institution... has no place in our laws... yet it is there...

The very argument is ridiculous... all unions should be civil... with NO tax breaks...

I believe there should be a flat tax... flat is fair... and we all should pay it...

 

[trickblue]

Within the context of scientific understanding, yes. However, you've missed the point I was trying to get across and convoluted it into something else entirely.

Within context... isn't this the whole argument?

Again, missing the point. I consider the concept of faith being a cornerstone of science foul, borne of ignorance, and borderline insulting. Twice in this one post already you've misconstrued concepts and ideas I'm conveying and yet you want to be engaged???

You are mixing opinion with belief...

This follows along with the same reasoning that I don't bother debating the Second Amendment with any passion with a gun control advocate or debating global warming here with those who are diametrically opposed to the evidence as presented in peer-reviewed journals. The positions are too far apart and no one is going to convince either side of anything.

I would be interested in discussing your Second Amendment beliefs...

You've come off as ignorant of the scientific method and the thought process behind science as well. Moreover, your example of Pluto reinforced that you didn't have any idea what you were talking about in your own chosen example. Furthermore, you've shown twice in this post I'm quoting that you can't figure out what I'm saying.[/quote}

Wanna talk or run me down?

You've stated plenty of beliefs in how the world of science works. You've described them from your own point of bias and have done so while showing no grasp of the concepts within your own example.

Talk or hit and run?

Because you keep missing the point wholly.

This is the thing that gets me... my whole point has been that science evolves... you guys go in to attack mode politically...

Golf is both a verb and a noun.

Faith is only a noun. Why should I bother to further annoy myself with this when you express such ignorance that could be so easily dispelled if you even bothered to do a quick search on what is and isn't a verb and noun??? :bang2:



What??? Semantics has nothing to do with it. Did you completely miss that point as well? Sheesh.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Within context... isn't this the whole argument?



You are mixing opinion with belief...



I would be interested in discussing your Second Amendment beliefs...

I'm INCREDIBLY salty when it comes to mixing/accrediting faith with science. 'Bout the long and short of it.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Trying to believe that "an infinitely dense bundle of energy suddenly burst outward" ... and formed the universe, the sun and moon, the earth and life itself as we know it, ... is like trying to believe if you threw 1,000 scrabble board games into the air they would land and form the Webster's dictionary.

Not really, considering the current universe is the only one you know. It's not like there was a "universe blueprint" that just so happened to be achieved.

Not to mention that this is a gross oversimplification which leaves out billions of years worth of steps.

Also, this idea that science and faith are incompatatible is ridiculous.