Bigger and Deeper at Nose Tackle

Dallas71

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This is Dallas' fifth straight year in full commitment to the 3-4 defense, at least in terms of base defense. For the fourth straight year, I'm still wondering how exactly the Cowboys plan on achieving maximum success without a true nose guard. Before you even remotely consider replying to the contrary siting Jay Ratliff as a Pro Bowl player at the position, understand that I think Ratliff is a top notch defensive lineman, likely in 4-3 as well.

My problem is the fact that Ratliff is built like a 3-4 defensive end. It's much more difficult to pull the "little engine that could" trick in the 3-4, especially on the line. While it's not exactly a true 3 versus 5 (opponents o-line), it's a nasty match up in the very middle between Ratliff, at about 305 pounds, and two linemen. Either of the opposing linemen can be well over 300 pounds and you've still got a center to deal with. Even if it's only one offensive linemen assigned to the nose guard, and that's almost always either of the guards who will be well heavier than Ratliff, this is still a very fatiguing contest over the course of the regular season by itself, let alone post.

A guy built to handle these matchups much better, thus being more effective against the run, weighs around 325 to 340. At this point, it's the offense that must apply two guys on a big space eater such as this just to keep him from going straight into the backfield. A man who weighs 325 or better is pretty much going wherever he wants. Question is how fast will he get there. Can the offense run the ball? Does the quarterback have time?

Against the pass a true nose guard likely isn't making much impact, take away the advantage possibly gained by the interior double team to open up opportunities for ends and linebackers. But since most good 3-4 defenses rely primarily on both outside linebackers to pressure the quarterback, and especially one stud like Demarcus Ware, the big boy in the middle doesn't have to get many sacks. He doesn't really need to be on the field in obvious passing situations anyway.

Against the run, however, it'll be much easier to predict where the run is going seeing as the middle is going to be very clogged. The more outside the running game has to operate, the bigger the advantage for the defense and especially when they knows it's likely going right or left only. Dallas' edge linebackers might be the best in the league at playing the run remember.

I think the Dallas defense, personnel-wise, is among the very best in the league. But if we agree that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, you'll also agree that offenses in football want to run up the middle if possible. For as good as Ratliff is at penetrating with quickness and a high motor, he's simply not the best fit for playing nose guard, especially by himself!

Names such as Alan Branch and Gabe Watson come to mind as potentially stellar nose guards in the 3-4 that Dallas has passed on in recent drafts. Both went to Michigan, both ended up in Arizona in the last three years. The Cardinals were in the Super Bowl last year. Granted, the offense got them there for the most part and the defense wasn't exactly dominant. On the contrary, these guys would have had nothing to do with the Steelers' game winning drive either at the end.

Just look at the teams that have run the 3-4 defense very well, outside of Bill Parcells. Vince Wilfork in New England ... last time I checked the Pats were pretty good. How about Tony Sirgusa? He was part of the Baltimore Ravens defense that gave up the fewest points in NFL history at 6'4" and 340. There's numerous other examples as well. Even San Francisco, a much more recent 4-3 defense to switch over to the 3-4, has bigger nose guards trying to land jobs with Mike Singletary. Pittsburgh? Casey Hampton at 6' 1" and 325. The Steelers haven't done too bad as of late and offense is not why Pittsburgh is winning jewelry.

Consider how frightening it would be for opposing offenses to face Ratliff just inside of Ware or Anthony Spencer. As I look at the long term conerning a guy like Marcus Spears (he weighs 315!) who's in a contract year and may be allowed to leave just as Chris Canty was, I know that Dallas needs to be prepared at defense end anyway. Soon it will be time to try Stephen Bowen and Jason Hatcher in incresed roles snd wouldn't you feel better if Ratliff just slid over to compliment Igor Olshansky. Already you're 4-deep at end with experienced and very talented players starting.

In closing, Junior Siavii and Jonas Seawright are the only other listed tackles on the defensive line. Neither is remotely proven but both look the part certainly. I'm personally hoping Seawright can make the team but this could be stretch. He's massive at the very least and hopefully a 3-4 team will be a better fit for him as previous experience with the 4-3, after North Carolina anyway, hasn't really panned out. I frankly think that he's a bit too massive and lacks the athleticism sought after by 4-3 coordinators.

Either way, things have to get deeper and bigger for Dallas to really turn the corner on defense. I keep waiting and watching year after year as the defense fades in December. Even Parcells couldn't figure this out bringing in Jason Ferguson not long ago with similar results. I will say that Ratliff is certainly more of a playmaker than Ferguson in passing situations. Having said that, you don't have to lose that ingredient in the defense by having Ratliff at end ... or back inside in the nickel as a tackle.
 

Ken

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I agree with the OP....this is a very big concern for the cowboys. We lucked out last year that Rat didn't get hurt. Unlikely he makes it through without some sort of ding.

OUr backups don't inspire confidence....don't know why we don't pick up a big boy who can play a little...
 

Idgit

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Poor Dallas71. Makes a really nice second post on the board, and theogt runs it into a ditch by being funny.
 

Everlastingxxx

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Idgit;2919407 said:
Poor Dallas71. Makes a really nice second post on the board, and theogt runs it into a ditch by being funny.

That was freakin funny. Best laugh i had all day.
 

Idgit

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Dallas71;2919409 said:
It was actually the first ... and what's a theogt?

Welcome. Nobody knows what a theogt is supposed to be.

I don't agree with the idea of changing positions for our second-best defender, but I also don't like the idea of backing him off with a castoff who wasn't able to make the team last year. If Rat goes down, we'll shift Spears or Olshansky inside and play Bowen and Hatcher more, which is an ok compromise, but in the meantime, it's looking like Siavii is going to get 20 or so snaps a game.

Everlastingxxx;2919413 said:
That was freakin funny. Best laugh i had all day.

It was pretty damn funny. Not sure why it was deleted, either.
 

texbumthelife

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I thought this was one of the perks of Wade's 34 -- That the defensive linemen could be smaller because they are not there to eat up blocks but attack and get up field?

I was under the impression that Phillip's has always run a 34 with smaller defensive linemen than your prototypical 34. Don't get me wrong, I think we need depth something fierce, but I think Rat is perfect as our starter. I am sorry to site last year, because I know you ask me not to, but results speak for themselves.
 

Dallas71

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Go back to when Wade Phillips was defensive coordinator at San Diego. Nothing about that defensive line was small, especially the nose guard. Jamal Williams goes 6'3" and 348. This is still one of the top 3-4 defenses in the league when healthy. But there's no 300 pounder in the middle.

Listen, the numbers don't lie and neither does the time frame of Dallas' slide every year in December, especially on defense. Ratliff came into the league as an end and there's a reason for this. He's actually smaller than most of our other ends! In fact, he would have never gone inside to tackle if not for Jason Ferguson getting hurt in 2007. What looked like a successful move with a 13-3 record turned into a bit of a mirage in 2008. Outside of the Pittsburgh game, the defense was pretty bad in December. This defense gave up essentially 30 points a game that month and only beat New York (without Burress by then) during the stretch. I just don't believe in coincidence.

Finally, Ratliff is probably the third best defender behind DeMarcus Ware and Terrance Newman ... but imagine if he was in the right spot. Ratliff is not Superman and you cannot go smaller on the defensive line when there's only three guys up there. This is just common sense and hopefully this is addressed ... finally.
 

THUMPER

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Ratliff has been outstanding at NT for us but I think he would be even better at DE. Ideally, he would be a DT in a 4-3 and would be one of the best in the league IMO, but since we run a 3-4 his best position would be DE. Unfortunately, w don't have anyone else that can man the middle so he's the guy and he has done a wonderful job for us there.

I agree with the OP that we should stop passing on guys that have the bulk to really play the NT position. As good as Ratliff has been for us a guy 30 lbs heavier would be better. Obviously we are are not talking about simply putting some big guy at NT but a guy with talent as well. We've got fat guys behind Ratliff but they aren't very good so far.

NT was one of my priorities going into this draft but we didn't take one in the early rounds. I am hoping we either pick up someone in FA or in the draft next year so we can move Ratliff back to DE where he can really shine for us.

Welcome to the board Dallas71! :welcome:
 

stilltheguru

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We will see all about this defense from game 1. Last year was the best first game the defense has played since the change to the 3-4 and it was still a few drops away from giving up 17 plus.
 

NoLuv4Jerry

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I agree with the OP.....but if I recall, Jay has resisted a move to DE. He is coachable and will do it....but remember him hinting that he did not like it when they moved him there. Maybe he will realize that a longer career and a bigger payday awaits him if he moved out to DE and racked up 10+ sacks a year.
 

Hostile

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Dallas71, welcome to The Zone. I only want to make one comment about your post by way of something to consider. It is what you said about Ratliff's size.

Too many people focus on size in football and not enough on drive and ability. Take for instance the knock on Emmitt Smith when he was drafted. He was too small. The same was said of Doug Flutie and while he was no Peyton Manning he still proved himself to be a pretty good QB in the NFL.

While it is true that most NTs are bigger than Ratliff weight wise, it is still true that he is a 300 pound man, that's hardly small. Just like Emmitt and Doug, you can't measure the size of the man's heart and he plays with heart.

On top of this his strength and mobility is causing matchup issues for interior O-linemen who simply cannot keep up with his overall speed.

One last thing, one of the greatest NTs in NFL history was not a 325 pound bulldozer. His name was Curly Culp and I think he was never more than 275 pounds, but he had amazing footwork from his time as a wrestler. In that era DL were smaller, but he was considered too small even then. He didn't play small.

Ratliff doesn't either. I would like to get some depth behind him, but I don't consider him an issue at all.
 

Doomsday101

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I like Ratliff right where he is, he has shown the ability to do the job and he get pressure right up the gut.
 

Biggems

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Roy Miller was there for the taking in this year's draft.

Spears was a fat slob, couldnt pass rush, but clogged space....he could have been Rat's backup before he got slim and trim, and earned the full-time starting DE position for good.

I want to keep this Robinson guy on the practice squad. I do not know if he is DE or DT, but he seems to bust through the line and play with some fire and passion. Of course, it is only against a bunch of JAGS, so we don't really know what he has.

This is my biggest issue with how we conduct preseason. Why not give the guys at the end of the line, a chance to play at least a series or two against another team's starters in 1 of the 4 games. See if they can cut it against legit NFL players.
 

juck

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Getting Casey Hampton to back up Rat would be special.lol.
 

BourbonBalz

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Ratliff is stellar as a pass rushing NT. However, his production drops off a bit when it comes to playing the run. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he doesn't play the run well, he's just not as great at it as he is at rushing the QB from the NT position. I would think the fact that he's a smaller NT has something to do with this, especially late in the season. He's got to get wore down some. He's only human and guys that play NT take a tremendous beating during the season. Ideally, I'd like to have a 330-340 lb. NT that plays the run on 1st and maybe 2nd down and have Ratliff play end on those downs, then move him inside on passing downs (either as NT when we stick with the 3-4 or as a DT when we run a 4-3 on 3rd down). Just my thoughts, but you can't have everything.
 

Biggems

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juckie;2919590 said:
Getting Casey Hampton to back up Rat would be special.lol.

paying his contract and getting him to agree to a backup role, not so much...:D
 

juck

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Biggems;2919595 said:
paying his contract and getting him to agree to a backup role, not so much...:D

He doesnt make all that much now.
 

TonyRomo#9

guys, do yall ever workout? do you know what 30 pounds is? its not much, it won't make much difference in how tough a man is to block, his core strength and leg strength has 100 times more to do with it the 30 pounds..
if ratliff didn't have any push, yeah that would be a problem, but he does.. more then alot of 340+s...
now i agree i would like some depth behind rat, but i think olshansky could come over and be really good in the middle too as he seems to have the core strength to stand in there.

sometimes people get way way to into numbers like weight, height, 40 times, when in reality those things hardly translate to performance.. look at stanback and hurd.. stanback is bigger, faster, ripped liked noones business.. but hurd goes out there and is a player..
 

Doomsday

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If Dallas was poor against the run or struggled to stop opponents on 3rd and short, I would be more concerned but neither of those are the case. I think we need depth behind Ratliff but I dont think his size matters, like Wade says he been successful with Big guys and with smaller quick ones like Ratliff.

Im excited about the amount of pressure Ratliff, James and Brooking have been generating up the middle. With Ware and Spencer on the outside it should be fun to watch.
 
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