Bigger and Deeper at Nose Tackle

Chocolate Lab

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Not this AGAIN.

I love posters who think they know better than someone who has actually, you know, coached the 34 in the NFL for over three decades.

In a perfect world, would Wade rather have Vince Wilfork in the middle? Probably. But those guys are very hard to come by. Where are you going to get one? I hope the answer isn't some 320 lb fourth round draft pet, because he wouldn't be better than Jay Ratliff.

Finally, I wonder why you say you'd prefer Seawright over Siavii. I'm guessing you're going by the height and weight in the program. If that's the case, I think you'd re-think things if you saw them in person. Seawright may be a little heavier, but he's tall and doesn't look like the anchor type... He looks more like an offensive tackle. Siavii is a lot thicker and stronger-looking in the legs. Which shows again that it's not as simple as putting a 330 pounder in the middle.
 

Doomsday101

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Doomsday;2919630 said:
If Dallas was poor against the run or struggled to stop opponents on 3rd and short, I would be more concerned but neither of those are the case. I think we need depth behind Ratliff but I dont think his size matters, like Wade says he been successful with Big guys and with smaller quick ones like Ratliff.

Im excited about the amount of pressure Ratliff, James and Brooking have been generating up the middle. With Ware and Spencer on the outside it should be fun to watch.

I agree. The quickest path to the QB is right over center and Rat knows how to put on the pressure. I would like to see someone step up and provide good backup to Rat but I would not look to move him at this time
 

ArmyCowboy

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If you have a NT playing a 0 technique with two gap responsibilty, he does have to be bigger.

Ratliff plays a 1 technique with one gap responsibility, therefore he relies more on quickness and less on bulk than a 0 techinique.
 

Future

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TonyRomo#9;2919607 said:
guys, do yall ever workout? do you know what 30 pounds is? its not much, it won't make much difference in how tough a man is to block, his core strength and leg strength has 100 times more to do with it the 30 pounds..
if ratliff didn't have any push, yeah that would be a problem, but he does.. more then alot of 340+s...
now i agree i would like some depth behind rat, but i think olshansky could come over and be really good in the middle too as he seems to have the core strength to stand in there.

sometimes people get way way to into numbers like weight, height, 40 times, when in reality those things hardly translate to performance.. look at stanback and hurd.. stanback is bigger, faster, ripped liked noones business.. but hurd goes out there and is a player..
Ok...let's say you max out at a bench press of 300. That means you aren't even close to benching 330. Plus, that 30 pounds pushes back in the NFL, so it's like 60 pounds. 30 pounds is a HUGE difference.
 

speedkilz88

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Biggems;2919589 said:
Roy Miller was there for the taking in this year's draft.

Spears was a fat slob, couldnt pass rush, but clogged space....he could have been Rat's backup before he got slim and trim, and earned the full-time starting DE position for good.

I want to keep this Robinson guy on the practice squad. I do not know if he is DE or DT, but he seems to bust through the line and play with some fire and passion. Of course, it is only against a bunch of JAGS, so we don't really know what he has.

This is my biggest issue with how we conduct preseason. Why not give the guys at the end of the line, a chance to play at least a series or two against another team's starters in 1 of the 4 games. See if they can cut it against legit NFL players.
Robinson is an end, but he's also a 4 year vet so I don't think he's eligible for the practice squad.
 

Temo

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Here's another consideration: Ratliff may not be as good as a 3-4 DE than as a NT.

Consider that his greatest value right now comes from his ability to beat slower Centers/Guards off the ball and into gaps. He has great technique and the ability to get the slower guys off balance.

Would he be able to do that as a DE? RT and LT are picked for those premium positions for their superior quickness and footwork. Sure, he might still be good at DE... but to say that he'd be just as good at DE as he is currently as a NT is a dubious claim.
 

Doomsday101

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One other thing to add Dallas while they are a 3-4 do not line up the same for every defensive call heck there were time Wade would run the 46 defense formation. Bottom line for me is Rat gets the job done working inside and if you are getting it done then leave him alone
 

Verdict

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Dallas71;2919365 said:
This is Dallas' fifth straight year in full commitment to the 3-4 defense, at least in terms of base defense. For the fourth straight year, I'm still wondering how exactly the Cowboys plan on achieving maximum success without a true nose guard. Before you even remotely consider replying to the contrary siting Jay Ratliff as a Pro Bowl player at the position, understand that I think Ratliff is a top notch defensive lineman, likely in 4-3 as well.

My problem is the fact that Ratliff is built like a 3-4 defensive end. It's much more difficult to pull the "little engine that could" trick in the 3-4, especially on the line. While it's not exactly a true 3 versus 5 (opponents o-line), it's a nasty match up in the very middle between Ratliff, at about 305 pounds, and two linemen. Either of the opposing linemen can be well over 300 pounds and you've still got a center to deal with. Even if it's only one offensive linemen assigned to the nose guard, and that's almost always either of the guards who will be well heavier than Ratliff, this is still a very fatiguing contest over the course of the regular season by itself, let alone post.

A guy built to handle these matchups much better, thus being more effective against the run, weighs around 325 to 340. At this point, it's the offense that must apply two guys on a big space eater such as this just to keep him from going straight into the backfield. A man who weighs 325 or better is pretty much going wherever he wants. Question is how fast will he get there. Can the offense run the ball? Does the quarterback have time?

Against the pass a true nose guard likely isn't making much impact, take away the advantage possibly gained by the interior double team to open up opportunities for ends and linebackers. But since most good 3-4 defenses rely primarily on both outside linebackers to pressure the quarterback, and especially one stud like Demarcus Ware, the big boy in the middle doesn't have to get many sacks. He doesn't really need to be on the field in obvious passing situations anyway.

Against the run, however, it'll be much easier to predict where the run is going seeing as the middle is going to be very clogged. The more outside the running game has to operate, the bigger the advantage for the defense and especially when they knows it's likely going right or left only. Dallas' edge linebackers might be the best in the league at playing the run remember.

I think the Dallas defense, personnel-wise, is among the very best in the league. But if we agree that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, you'll also agree that offenses in football want to run up the middle if possible. For as good as Ratliff is at penetrating with quickness and a high motor, he's simply not the best fit for playing nose guard, especially by himself!

Names such as Alan Branch and Gabe Watson come to mind as potentially stellar nose guards in the 3-4 that Dallas has passed on in recent drafts. Both went to Michigan, both ended up in Arizona in the last three years. The Cardinals were in the Super Bowl last year. Granted, the offense got them there for the most part and the defense wasn't exactly dominant. On the contrary, these guys would have had nothing to do with the Steelers' game winning drive either at the end.

Just look at the teams that have run the 3-4 defense very well, outside of Bill Parcells. Vince Wilfork in New England ... last time I checked the Pats were pretty good. How about Tony Sirgusa? He was part of the Baltimore Ravens defense that gave up the fewest points in NFL history at 6'4" and 340. There's numerous other examples as well. Even San Francisco, a much more recent 4-3 defense to switch over to the 3-4, has bigger nose guards trying to land jobs with Mike Singletary. Pittsburgh? Casey Hampton at 6' 1" and 325. The Steelers haven't done too bad as of late and offense is not why Pittsburgh is winning jewelry.

Consider how frightening it would be for opposing offenses to face Ratliff just inside of Ware or Anthony Spencer. As I look at the long term conerning a guy like Marcus Spears (he weighs 315!) who's in a contract year and may be allowed to leave just as Chris Canty was, I know that Dallas needs to be prepared at defense end anyway. Soon it will be time to try Stephen Bowen and Jason Hatcher in incresed roles snd wouldn't you feel better if Ratliff just slid over to compliment Igor Olshansky. Already you're 4-deep at end with experienced and very talented players starting.

In closing, Junior Siavii and Jonas Seawright are the only other listed tackles on the defensive line. Neither is remotely proven but both look the part certainly. I'm personally hoping Seawright can make the team but this could be stretch. He's massive at the very least and hopefully a 3-4 team will be a better fit for him as previous experience with the 4-3, after North Carolina anyway, hasn't really panned out. I frankly think that he's a bit too massive and lacks the athleticism sought after by 4-3 coordinators.

Either way, things have to get deeper and bigger for Dallas to really turn the corner on defense. I keep waiting and watching year after year as the defense fades in December. Even Parcells couldn't figure this out bringing in Jason Ferguson not long ago with similar results. I will say that Ratliff is certainly more of a playmaker than Ferguson in passing situations. Having said that, you don't have to lose that ingredient in the defense by having Ratliff at end ... or back inside in the nickel as a tackle.

I think Ratliff does a serviceable job at nose guard, but I would rather see him at end and have a player with Rat's ability, and 40 pounds heavier at NG as well, but finding one is probably a little bit easier said than done.

I agree with most of your post, but am "chiming in" to commend you on your writing style. You use excellent grammar and your thought process is logical, and well reasoned. Your post is well spaced and broken up into proper paragraphs for the reader to digest. Keep the posts coming and welcome to the "Zone".
 

craig71

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Just something to consider about Ratliff,his biggest asset is quickness.That is why he excels at the nose in the first place.Is he a strong guy?I believe so.Are there stronger players around,I believe there are.What really makes him unique is that quickness that he possesses.So when you have him matched up against a center or guard(or both) he can win that battle because he's more athletic than they are,he can beat them to the point of attack.If you were to move him to end that would change.He's quick,but not quick enough to constantly beat a tackle on a consistant basis.You see most good tackles are quick and have good footwork,they're just as athletic as Ratliff.So to me putting Ratliff on the edge would negate his greatest asset.Not to mention that he is pretty much geared up to play nose,and has relayed those sentiments in public.That is not to say that he wouldn't/couldn't play end in a pinch if the need arose.As far as needing a big wide bodied nose tackle,it would make sense to have somebody with protypical size.Somebody to play 20 snaps a game to give Ratliff a rest,someone to absorb some of the punishment on first and second down.And you know what,the more I think about it,Ratliff's greatest asset is his heart and that is a great asset to have.


Craig
 

Chocolate Lab

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Verdict;2919777 said:
I think Ratliff does a serviceable job at nose guard, but I would rather see him at end and have a player with Rat's ability, and 40 pounds heavier at NG as well, but finding one is probably a little bit easier said than done.

Wow. Just wow!

Ratliff does a "serviceable" job?

And when you find that player with Rat's ability but 40 pounds heavier, please let us know. He should be easy to spot, because he'll be standing next to Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.
 

adbutcher

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Chocolate Lab;2919782 said:
Wow. Just wow!

Ratliff does a "serviceable" job?

And when you find that player with Rat's ability but 40 pounds heavier, please let us know. He should be easy to spot, because he'll be standing next to Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

Pretty amazing isn't it?:laugh2:
 

craig71

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Temo;2919735 said:
Here's another consideration: Ratliff may not be as good as a 3-4 DE than as a NT.

Consider that his greatest value right now comes from his ability to beat slower Centers/Guards off the ball and into gaps. He has great technique and the ability to get the slower guys off balance.

Would he be able to do that as a DE? RT and LT are picked for those premium positions for their superior quickness and footwork. Sure, he might still be good at DE... but to say that he'd be just as good at DE as he is currently as a NT is a dubious claim.


I got sidetracked posted the same thing,no plagiarism intended.

Craig
 

Temo

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craig71;2919785 said:
I got sidetracked posted the same thing,no plagiarism intended.

Craig

Message boards are serious business! Heh, jk. I doubt I'm the only one who had that thought; I'm sure the coaching staff for one is thinking along the same lines.

They "stumbled" on a cool personnel match up with Ratliff as NT. There are few centers and guards who can handle his speed, I'm sure they're not eager to replace that anytime soon just to get someone who can plug up gaps (why plug up gaps when you can just shoot through them?)
 

btcutter

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Temo;2919735 said:
Here's another consideration: Ratliff may not be as good as a 3-4 DE than as a NT.

Consider that his greatest value right now comes from his ability to beat slower Centers/Guards off the ball and into gaps. He has great technique and the ability to get the slower guys off balance.

Would he be able to do that as a DE? RT and LT are picked for those premium positions for their superior quickness and footwork. Sure, he might still be good at DE... but to say that he'd be just as good at DE as he is currently as a NT is a dubious claim.

I very much agree with this post. He's quickness maybe negated by the athletic RT or LT.

Rat would be a great 4-3 NT. Unfortunately, we run a 3-4. I love his passrushing ability but I do think OUR defense suffers against the run and short yardage situations.

Lastly, I am sure Rat wears down toward the season and he desperately needs a capable backup to take some playing time. I think NATE NEWTON mentioned it last yr and said Rat is BEATEN up every weekend and needs help.
 

Temo

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btcutter;2919812 said:
I very much agree with this post. He's quickness maybe negated by the athletic RT or LT.

Rat would be a great 4-3 NT. Unfortunately, we run a 3-4. I love his passrushing ability but I do think OUR defense suffers against the run and short yardage situations.

Lastly, I am sure Rat wears down toward the season and he desperately needs a capable backup to take some playing time. I think NATE NEWTON mentioned it last yr and said Rat is BEATEN up every weekend and needs help.

We were bad in power situations last year (3rd or 4th down, 2 yards or fewer to convert). We allowed 74% of all such opportunities to convert, ranking 26th in such situations. However, we were around the middle of the league in overall run defense.

I think the power problems are not really on Ratliff-- after all, on short yardage situations, the Cowboys don't use a regular 3-4... they bring in other D-Lineman and the linebackers play closer to the line. So it's not really on Ratliff at all.
 

btcutter

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Temo;2919830 said:
We were bad in power situations last year (3rd or 4th down, 2 yards or fewer to convert). We allowed 74% of all such opportunities to convert, ranking 26th in such situations. However, we were around the middle of the league in overall run defense.

I think the power problems are not really on Ratliff-- after all, on short yardage situations, the Cowboys don't use a regular 3-4... they bring in other D-Lineman and the linebackers play closer to the line. So it's not really on Ratliff at all.

I don't mean to blame Rat for all our run D problems but he is part of our run D problem esp. when the NT pl(ays such a vital part in run D.
I don't think many of us have confidence in our D to hold up against 3rd and short situations (unfortunately). I do feel that a better rested Rat will do wonders for our overall D as well. Wade needs to play the NT backups more regularly, esp. when we have game in hand.
 

Temo

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btcutter;2919844 said:
I don't mean to blame Rat for all our run D problems but he is part of our run D problem esp. when the NT pl(ays such a vital part in run D.
I don't think many of us have confidence in our D to hold up against 3rd and short situations (unfortunately). I do feel that a better rested Rat will do wonders for our overall D as well. Wade needs to play the NT backups more regularly, esp. when we have game in hand.

We don't' have an overall run D problem (except for safeties not making tackles and allowing 80 yard jaunts). Just in power running situations.

And yea, I think some of that is not having good DLine depth. It's not all about Rat, is all I was saying.
 

joseephuss

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Dallas71;2919365 said:
Just look at the teams that have run the 3-4 defense very well, outside of Bill Parcells. Vince Wilfork in New England ... last time I checked the Pats were pretty good. How about Tony Sirgusa? He was part of the Baltimore Ravens defense that gave up the fewest points in NFL history at 6'4" and 340. There's numerous other examples as well. Even San Francisco, a much more recent 4-3 defense to switch over to the 3-4, has bigger nose guards trying to land jobs with Mike Singletary. Pittsburgh? Casey Hampton at 6' 1" and 325. The Steelers haven't done too bad as of late and offense is not why Pittsburgh is winning jewelry.

Weren't the Ravens running the 4-3 defense in 2000 when they led the league in fewest points allowed? I believe they had big Sam Adams as the other DT in their four man front.
 

jobberone

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Now this is a great thread. And :welcome: to the zone Dallas71. Great post. Hope to see more from you.

I harped on getting a prototypical NT. I only have to hope that Wade has one on the squad or will get one.

Ratliff is perfect playing the gaps and should get 80% of the snaps in our defense. At least. But we do need a big NT to cover the center and anchor the line in short yardage situations. Ratliff does an admirable job in that role but he's too small to take on double teams constantly playing a 0 technique.

And he does not need to be moved. The solution is to spell him for breathers and when we cover the center in short yardage situations....on occasion. He doesn't need to come out everytime nor can they sub on every situation that calls for a prototypical NT.

And until we find someone who can adequately sub for him, prototypical or not, he will get the vast majority of the snaps.
 
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