Bigger and Deeper at Nose Tackle

[SMCowboy]

Dallas well thought out argument, but it is all WRONG. First off, this thought that there is a TRUE nose tackle, is a thought that only exist in the minds of some football fans. Do most teams have bigger nose tackles, absolutely. Why, because it s MUCH easier to find a big guy that it is to find a guy like Jay Ratliff, who is as quick as he is, but still strong enough at 305 lbs to still hold up to the beating that a nose tackle takes.

And no, Jay Ratliff is not just a great DL, there is a reason that he feel to the 7th round in the NFL draft, because as a DE, he is very AVERAGE, despite being the ideal size for a DE, he is a very average, because his best asset, his quickness is negated by the quickness of the tackles. But, if you combine his unusual ability to be as strong as he is for his size, with his quickness, he is the PERFECT 3-4 NT. He is strong enough to hold up against the run, yet also quick enough to be the most feared pass rushing NT in the NFL.

Does he need to be rested, absolutely he does, as any nose tackle does, because facing double teams alot of times will wear out ANYONE no matter how big they are. And we have the perfect guy on the roster right now to be that backup, Junior Savaii, if you actually watch him, while he is not a great pass rusher, he does a great job of clogging the middle, and is almost NEVER driven out of the play, and that includes the times that he has indeed faced the opponents first team OL.

 

[swj010]

Ratliff has been outstanding at NT for us but I think he would be even better at DE. Ideally, he would be a DT in a 4-3 and would be one of the best in the league IMO, but since we run a 3-4 his best position would be DE. Unfortunately, w don't have anyone else that can man the middle so he's the guy and he has done a wonderful job for us there.

I agree with the OP that we should stop passing on guys that have the bulk to really play the NT position. As good as Ratliff has been for us a guy 30 lbs heavier would be better. Obviously we are are not talking about simply putting some big guy at NT but a guy with talent as well. We've got fat guys behind Ratliff but they aren't very good so far.

NT was one of my priorities going into this draft but we didn't take one in the early rounds. I am hoping we either pick up someone in FA or in the draft next year so we can move Ratliff back to DE where he can really shine for us.

Welcome to the board Dallas71!

We can all talk about moving Ratliff to DE but it should be remembered that when this was brought up in the Spring as a possibility, he didn't like the idea although he said he would try to do whatever the team asked. Why is it we all know better that Rat what he should be doing?

 

[jobberone]

If Junior can clog the middle without surrendering yardage then great. That's the job he's hired to do.

 

[RS12]

And we have the perfect guy on the roster right now to be that backup, Junior Savaii,

No, spends too much time on the ground.

 

[theogt]

wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on a minute















theogt was actually funny

 

[SMCowboy]

No, spends too much time on the ground.

Wrong, I watched Savaii play by play each of the games, and the ONLY time he spent time on the ground, is when he appeared to slip on the dirt against Oakland.

 

[CF74]

http://i185.***BLOCKED***/albums/x208/samck4/Cowboys/ratliff-mcnabb.jpg

Welcome to the zone. Primarily our biggest concern at the NT position is depth behind the man but make no mistake the man is more than adequate.:starspin

 

[ArmyCowboy]

Weren't the Ravens running the 4-3 defense in 2000 when they led the league in fewest points allowed? I believe they had big Sam Adams as the other DT in their four man front.

You are correct.

Tony Siragusa and Sam Adams played DT, primarily on running downs.

 

[BAT]

I think folks forget that Wade does not run a traditional 3-4 (2 gap oriented vs 1 gap oriented). Or that Wade switched the base 3-4 formation for the 46 last season when the front 7 were having trouble 1)stopping the run 2)get consistent pressure (other than Ware).

In a 46, the best pass rushing DE slides to the NT spot (see Bears w/Dan Hampton & Eags w/Reggie White). The Cowboys do not have to show their hand as to what formation they will line up b/c Rat (as the best pass rushing DL) does not have to move anywhere. This versatility allows the Cowboys scheme flexibility. Having a traditional 3-4 big (a guy over 330) would defeat this purpose.

Gotta go w/what works folks. Not to say that Cowboys should not bring in a specialist on short yardage and goal line plays. But drafting a first day guy for that purpose is wasteful/inefficient.

 

[Plumfool]

First welcome and thank you for a good topic for discussion. Secondly all the Boys need to do is get someone to give rat a rest and be just good enough for about 10-15 plays a game.

 

[DeaconMoss]

I have always thought Spears and Ratliff should switch positions. At least try it in a preseason game and see what happens.

 

[THUMPER]

One last thing, one of the greatest NTs in NFL history was not a 325 pound bulldozer. His name was Curly Culp and I think he was never more than 275 pounds, but he had amazing footwork from his time as a wrestler. In that era DL were smaller, but he was considered too small even then. He didn't play small.

Interesting that you bring up Curley Culp since Wade coached him in Houston as the DL coach under his dad.

I decided to see who had played NT for Wade in the NFL and their size & weight:

1976-80 Oilers: Curley Culp - 6'2" 265
1981-85 Saints: Derland Moore - 6'4" 250, Tony Elliott - 6'2" 282
1986-88 Eagles: Jerome Brown - 6'2" 292 (Brown was a DT as they ran a 4-3)
1989-92 Broncos: Greg Kragen - 6'3" 263
1993-94 Broncos: Ted Washington - 6'5" 365
1995-00 Bills: Ted Washington - 6'5" 365
2002-03 Falcons: Ed Jasper - 6'2" 293
2004-06 Chargers: Jamal Williams - 6'3" 348
2007-08 Cowboys: Jay Ratliff - 6'4" 305

As you can see, Phillips can go with either a full-size (Washington or Williams), a mid-size (Ratliff, Brown, or Jasper), or a compact (Culp, Moore, or Kragen).

That speaks well for his ability to coach the DL regardless of the size. I think he will utilize whatever the player's strengths are and is not stuck with a particular size/style but will adapt to what he has. Evidently he's pretty good at it because it works for him.

I am happy with Ratliff at NT but thought he did pretty well when he played DE for us originally. I would like to see us draft some depth at the position though since the guys we have behind Ratliff do not exactly fill me with confidence.

 

[BAT]

Interesting that you bring up Curley Culp since Wade coached him in Houston as the DL coach under his dad.

I decided to see who had played NT for Wade in the NFL and their size & weight:

1976-80 Oilers: Curley Culp - 6'2" 265
1981-85 Saints: Derland Moore - 6'4" 250, Tony Elliott - 6'2" 282
1986-88 Eagles: Jerome Brown - 6'2" 292 (Brown was a DT as they ran a 4-3)
1989-92 Broncos: Greg Kragen - 6'3" 263
1993-94 Broncos: Ted Washington - 6'5" 365
1995-00 Bills: Ted Washington - 6'5" 365
2002-03 Falcons: Ed Jasper - 6'2" 293
2004-06 Chargers: Jamal Williams - 6'3" 348
2007-08 Cowboys: Jay Ratliff - 6'4" 305

As you can see, Phillips can go with either a full-size (Washington or Williams), a mid-size (Ratliff, Brown, or Jasper), or a compact (Culp, Moore, or Kragen).

That speaks well for his ability to coach the DL regardless of the size. I think he will utilize whatever the player's strengths are and is not stuck with a particular size/style but will adapt to what he has. Evidently he's pretty good at it because it works for him.

I am happy with Ratliff at NT but thought he did pretty well when he played DE for us originally. I would like to see us draft some depth at the position though since the guys we have behind Ratliff do not exactly fill me with confidence.

Good stuff Thumper, Wade also moved his guys around. So he had Reggie White inside when the Eagles went to a 46 and played Karl Mecklenburg all over the front 7, including NT.

 

[jobberone]

Interesting that you bring up Curley Culp since Wade coached him in Houston as the DL coach under his dad.

I decided to see who had played NT for Wade in the NFL and their size & weight:

1976-80 Oilers: Curley Culp - 6'2" 265
1981-85 Saints: Derland Moore - 6'4" 250, Tony Elliott - 6'2" 282
1986-88 Eagles: Jerome Brown - 6'2" 292 (Brown was a DT as they ran a 4-3)
1989-92 Broncos: Greg Kragen - 6'3" 263
1993-94 Broncos: Ted Washington - 6'5" 365
1995-00 Bills: Ted Washington - 6'5" 365
2002-03 Falcons: Ed Jasper - 6'2" 293
2004-06 Chargers: Jamal Williams - 6'3" 348
2007-08 Cowboys: Jay Ratliff - 6'4" 305

As you can see, Phillips can go with either a full-size (Washington or Williams), a mid-size (Ratliff, Brown, or Jasper), or a compact (Culp, Moore, or Kragen).

That speaks well for his ability to coach the DL regardless of the size. I think he will utilize whatever the player's strengths are and is not stuck with a particular size/style but will adapt to what he has. Evidently he's pretty good at it because it works for him.

I am happy with Ratliff at NT but thought he did pretty well when he played DE for us originally. I would like to see us draft some depth at the position though since the guys we have behind Ratliff do not exactly fill me with confidence.

About the bottom line at NT. I would like to see how Junior does before passing judgment on the quality. I'm leary right now, too.

 

[THUMPER]

Good stuff Thumper, Wade also moved his guys around. So he had Reggie White inside when the Eagles went to a 46 and played Karl Mecklenburg all over the front 7, including NT.

That's true, he has always been a good DC and can adapt to whatever talent is available.

 

[FLcowboy]

I like Ratliff right where he is, he has shown the ability to do the job and he get pressure right up the gut.

Pressure up the gut forces the QB into Spencer or Ware's' arms. Ya gotta luv it

 

[Dallas71]

Oh there is a mistake. The Dallas run defense isn't good enough to advance deep into the playoffs. Hasn't been in a very long time either.

Look at Dallas' embarrassing long runs given up at Thanksgiving or after the last 4 seasons. Ron Dayne? Willis McGahee? Then LeRon McClain the next snap? These are just three examples and there's certainly many others that changed field position that never should have.

This is not all Ratliff's fault but there's some factors going on here that are beyond disturbing. And what good are sacks if your opponent can actually run their way out it?

To win in football you have to stop the run first, not second, and I don't care how "pass happy" the NFL is right now as the league grows weaker and weaker and also more and more valuable, thus encouraging less and less contact.

All I'm saying is that any 300 pound NT will have some problems in today's NFL. The only difference between Jason Ferguson and Jay Ratliff is that the latter is a lot quicker and gets to the quarterback about once every other game ... so he's no L.T. or Haley or Ware. By the way, Dallas' lack of interceptions the passed several years (unlike San Diego came up with when Phillips was there) has a lot to do with NOT enough passing attempts in obvious passing situations. Hello Jamal Williams and stuffing that run on first down.

Personally, I think Wade Phillips relies on a lot of educated guesswork in this defense unlike Parcells did in the same base. When you guess right, it's great. When you're wrong ... well you know.

 

[CF74]

Oh there is a mistake. The Dallas run defense isn't good enough to advance deep into the playoffs. Hasn't been in a very long time either.

Look at Dallas' embarrassing long runs given up at Thanksgiving or after the last 4 seasons. Ron Dayne? Willis McGahee? Then LeRon McClain the next snap? These are just three examples and there's certainly many others that changed field position that never should have.

This is not all Ratliff's fault but there's some factors going on here that are beyond disturbing. And what good are sacks if your opponent can actually run their way out it?

To win in football you have to stop the run first, not second, and I don't care how "pass happy" the NFL is right now as the league grows weaker and weaker and also more and more valuable, thus encouraging less and less contact.

All I'm saying is that any 300 pound NT will have some problems in today's NFL. The only difference between Jason Ferguson and Jay Ratliff is that the latter is a lot quicker and gets to the quarterback about once every other game ... so he's no L.T. or Haley or Ware. By the way, Dallas' lack of interceptions the passed several years (unlike San Diego came up with when Phillips was there) has a lot to do with NOT enough passing attempts in obvious passing situations. Hello Jamal Williams and stuffing that run on first down.

Personally, I think Wade Phillips relies on a lot of educated guesswork in this defense unlike Parcells did in the same base. When you guess right, it's great. When you're wrong ... well you know.

Personally I would attribute that more to last years offense not maintaining possession of the ball, that is losing the ole time of possession battle. We were a quick score offense last year and a 1-2-3-punt offense as well. The end result has been a worn down D giving up the run towards the end of the season. This year we will be more of a chain moving time of possession bandit type offense, and our D will be just good enough to keep us in big games...:starspin

 

[BourbonBalz]

Interesting that you bring up Curley Culp since Wade coached him in Houston as the DL coach under his dad.

I decided to see who had played NT for Wade in the NFL and their size & weight:

1976-80 Oilers: Curley Culp - 6'2" 265
1981-85 Saints: Derland Moore - 6'4" 250, Tony Elliott - 6'2" 282
1986-88 Eagles: Jerome Brown - 6'2" 292 (Brown was a DT as they ran a 4-3)
1989-92 Broncos: Greg Kragen - 6'3" 263
1993-94 Broncos: Ted Washington - 6'5" 365
1995-00 Bills: Ted Washington - 6'5" 365
2002-03 Falcons: Ed Jasper - 6'2" 293
2004-06 Chargers: Jamal Williams - 6'3" 348
2007-08 Cowboys: Jay Ratliff - 6'4" 305

As you can see, Phillips can go with either a full-size (Washington or Williams), a mid-size (Ratliff, Brown, or Jasper), or a compact (Culp, Moore, or Kragen).

That speaks well for his ability to coach the DL regardless of the size. I think he will utilize whatever the player's strengths are and is not stuck with a particular size/style but will adapt to what he has. Evidently he's pretty good at it because it works for him.

I am happy with Ratliff at NT but thought he did pretty well when he played DE for us originally. I would like to see us draft some depth at the position though since the guys we have behind Ratliff do not exactly fill me with confidence.

Yes, but you'll notice that the majority of the lighter guys played quite some time ago when ALL players were smaller.

 

[BourbonBalz]

Personally I would attribute that more to last years offense not maintaining possession of the ball, that is losing the ole time of possession battle. We were a quick score offense last year and a 1-2-3-punt offense as well. The end result has been a worn down D giving up the run towards the end of the season. This year we will be more of a chain moving time of possession bandit type offense, and our D will be just good enough to keep us in big games...:starspin

I whole-heartedly agree with this. At least this is what I've been calling for anyway. I'd almost always rather score a TD off a long, clock-consuming 80 yard drive than off a quick strike bomb. The only time I'd rather score quick is if we're down by a lot on the scoreboard. It's always best to keep your offense on the field and wear down the other team's defense while letting your own defense rest on the sidelines. That's why our O line will be he key to this season. We have to be able to run the ball more effectively and efficiently than the past few years. Not only will that help out our defense, it will also open up the short to intermediate passing game. Witten, Bennett, and RW should be able to kill teams across the middle if we run the ball well.