Bob Hayes and Chuck Howley Finalists for the Hall

[GimmeTheBall!]

Which Super Bowl game are you referring to, his first one, in which he made 2 picks, recovered a fumble, and was named MVP? Or his second one, in which he made another pick and recovered another fumble?

But you're right, other than just those two Super Bowls (which make him the career takeaway leader in Super Bowls, btw) all he did was go to 6 Pro Bowls (5 as a starter) and make 5 consecutive All-NFL teams from 1966-70.

If you had a penny for every retired player who made at least 6 Pro Bowls, was a SBMVP, and was NOT in the Hall of Fame, you'd have exactly 2 cents. And as soon as Jerry Rice went in on the first ballot in a few years, you'd be down to your last penny.

With such accomplishments you'd think he'd been in the HOF for . . . forever. But he is not.
Why?
And, yes, it is easy to say there is anti-Cowboy sentiment at work. So say it. Otherwise explain why he still is not in.
Even second-tier Pearson should be there before Howley.
As for Howley being MVP, so was Larry Brown. You are no doubt rooting for him for the HOF as well, homer.

 

[Established1971]

Don't know if anyone saw this or posted it but I hope Hayes gets in finally. It's a travesty that he is not. Also, Howley deserves it as well.

Short Shots

Two more Cowboys were among the final four Seniors Committee considerations for the 2008 Pro Football Hall of Fame induction. Wide receiver Bob Hayes and linebacker Chuck Howley were included in the final four, along with Johnny Robinson and Tommy Nobis. That group will be pared down to two, and join the 15 finalists for consideration the day before Super Bowl XLII, Feb. 2, 2008, in Phoenix . . .

Well thats very good news but I very vividly remember that Hayes was in his final year of senior committee eligibility, it came down to him or Bob Brown. Brown got in and it was over and I remember the posts about how sad that was. What happened?

 

[percyhoward]

With such accomplishments you'd think he'd been in the HOF for . . . forever. But he is not.
Why?
And, yes, it is easy to say there is anti-Cowboy sentiment at work. So say it. Otherwise explain why he still is not in.
Even second-tier Pearson should be there before Howley.
As for Howley being MVP, so was Larry Brown. You are no doubt rooting for him for the HOF as well, homer.

Good night, and good luck.

 

[Hostile]

With such accomplishments you'd think he'd been in the HOF for . . . forever. But he is not.
Why?
And, yes, it is easy to say there is anti-Cowboy sentiment at work. So say it. Otherwise explain why he still is not in.
Even second-tier Pearson should be there before Howley.
As for Howley being MVP, so was Larry Brown. You are no doubt rooting for him for the HOF as well, homer.

GTB, Brown was never elected to Pro Bowls or as All Pro. That is a huge difference from Howley who was.

The HOF anti-Cowboys bias is real. How else do you explain these numbers?

14 NFL seasons
10 times Pro Bowl
4 times All Pro
52 career INTs
All Decade team of the 1970's
4 Super Bowl teams
19 years before inducted into the HOF.

Or these?

13 NFL seasons
6 times Pro Bowl
4 times All Pro
NEVER allowed a sack
All decade team of the 1970's
5 Super Bowl teams
26 years before inducted into the HOF.

Or these?

10 NFL Seasons
5 times Pro Bowl
4 times All Pro
29 INTs
18 Fumble Recoveries
All decade team of the 1970's
5 Super Bowl teams
Still not in the HOF after 28 years.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

GTB, Brown was never elected to Pro Bowls or as All Pro. That is a huge difference from Howley who was.

The HOF anti-Cowboys bias is real. How else do you explain these numbers?

14 NFL seasons
10 times Pro Bowl
4 times All Pro
52 career INTs
All Decade team of the 1970's
4 Super Bowl teams
19 years before inducted into the HOF.

Or these?

13 NFL seasons
6 times Pro Bowl
4 times All Pro
NEVER allowed a sack
All decade team of the 1970's
5 Super Bowl teams
26 years before inducted into the HOF.

Or these?

10 NFL Seasons
5 times Pro Bowl
4 times All Pro
29 INTs
18 Fumble Recoveries
All decade team of the 1970's
5 Super Bowl teams
Still not in the HOF after 28 years.

I am convinced: It has got to the be anti-Cowboy bias!!!
Or maybe the HOF has put the more deserving at the head of the line.

 

[rcaldw]

I am convinced: It has got to the be anti-Cowboy bias!!!
Or maybe the HOF has put the more deserving at the head of the line.

Stubborness is not a virture. I think it is evident to any objective reader of this thread, that you just didn't know your Howley information as well as you should. Whether he gets in or not, only time will tell, but to compare him to Larry Brown just makes you look ignorant.

 

[Hostile]

I am convinced: It has got to the be anti-Cowboy bias!!!
Or maybe the HOF has put the more deserving at the head of the line.

Let me ask you this. Would you be willing to bet your nads on that option?

How can you look at Renfro's stats alone and not be convinced the bias exists? How about a blurb from 2 years ago by the HOF voter from Houston (McLean) wherein he said on the radio that Ira Miller, the HOF voter from San Fran, admitted that he will never vote yes on a Cowboys player?

They look to be correcting the bias but Howley, Hayes, Harris, Renfro, Wright, and others were deserving from the word go. To not know how amazing Howley was as a player is to be myopic.

 

[Big Dakota]

Dr.Z quit in protest because he was in the room and saw the bias first hand.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

Stubborness is not a virture. I think it is evident to any objective reader of this thread, that you just didn't know your Howley information as well as you should. Whether he gets in or not, only time will tell, but to compare him to Larry Brown just makes you look ignorant.

Blutto, nobody is comparing Larry Brown to Howley.

An MVP was brought up, and I simply mentioned that unlikely heroes like Larry Brown have also emerged as MVPs. Every dog has its day. So don't git your socks all twisted.

As for Howley, I've never fully followed the careers of players from the middle of the last century that well.
I do believe that Howley is sufficiently a second-tier personage of NFL caliber, and that is probably what has kept him out of the HOF. If and when he is elected to the HOF, good on him.
Just don't diminish the opinion that maybe he's not been inducted for a good reason, and that is that more deserving players have emerged and have been honored.

Having said that, your homerism is appreciated.
While you bone up on Howley's exploits, I will focus on the here and now but will gladly salute those who are inducted.

 

[Hostile]

Dr.Z quit in protest because he was in the room and saw the bias first hand.

He quit the Senior's Committee for that reason. He is still a HOF voter.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

Let me ask you this. Would you be willing to bet your nads on that option?

How can you look at Renfro's stats alone and not be convinced the bias exists? How about a blurb from 2 years ago by the HOF voter from Houston (McLean) wherein he said on the radio that Ira Miller, the HOF voter from San Fran, admitted that he will never vote yes on a Cowboys player?

They look to be correcting the bias but Howley, Hayes, Harris, Renfro, Wright, and others were deserving from the word go. To not know how amazing Howley was as a player is to be myopic.

Bet? On a subjective matter?
:laugh2:
Hayes, Wright were true HOFers. But that is subjective on my part.

Alas, until the HOF places statistical guidelines on nominations/inductions, then it's all subjective.

But IMHO Howley remains second-tier and less deserving than other Cowboys and others from other teams who have not been inducted.

And let me say this: Because one Ira Miller is said to have said that, there might be another who holds anti-49ers views. And that, too, would be subjective. Not fair, but still subjective.

 

[Hostile]

Bet? On a subjective matter?
:laugh2:
Hayes, Wright were true HOFers. But that is subjective on my part.

Alas, until the HOF places statistical guidelines on nominations/inductions, then it's all subjective.

But IMHO Howley remains second-tier and less deserving than other Cowboys and others from other teams who have not been inducted.

And let me say this: Because one Ira Miller is said to have said that, there might be another who holds anti-49ers views. And that, too, would be subjective. Not fair, but still subjective.

No, not subjective. Stats to stats.

I mentioned a CB, OT, LB, and Safety in my "expose" on anti-Cowboys bias. Surely there has to have been CBs, OTs, LB,s and Safeties who were elected in between those 4 players eligibilty and now.

Let's line them up stats to stats and see if you are right that all were "more deserving." Come on, you're a gambling man.

 

[rcaldw]

Blutto, nobody is comparing Larry Brown to Howley.

An MVP was brought up, and I simply mentioned that unlikely heroes like Larry Brown have also emerged as MVPs. Every dog has its day. So don't git your socks all twisted.

As for Howley, I've never fully followed the careers of players from the middle of the last century that well.
I do believe that Howley is sufficiently a second-tier personage of NFL caliber, and that is probably what has kept him out of the HOF. If and when he is elected to the HOF, good on him.
Just don't diminish the opinion that maybe he's not been inducted for a good reason, and that is that more deserving players have emerged and have been honored.

Having said that, your homerism is appreciated.
While you bone up on Howley's exploits, I will focus on the here and now but will gladly salute those who are inducted.

"I never followed these guys that closely, but I will give an opinion on a player who played then, stick by it no matter what evidence is supplied to demonstrate that I'm wrong, and then defend my stubborness with the 'it's all subjective' line."

I'm not saying that Howley should be in. I was too young to see Howley's career. And I know that Larry Brown was a Super Bowl MVP and that was your comparison. I still say that it was a very poor comparison because the Super Bowl MVP is not the only thing that Howley has on his resume. It wasn't the "dog had his day" thing that you suggest. He was a Pro Bowler, he was an All NFL performer, and he did it multiple times.

It's not homerism I'm putting forth, it is objective common sense. If you admit you didn't follow those players that closely, why don't you just admit you don't know enough about Howley to evaluate his career properly?

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

No, not subjective. Stats to stats.

I mentioned a CB, OT, LB, and Safety in my "expose" on anti-Cowboys bias. Surely there has to have been CBs, OTs, LB,s and Safeties who were elected in between those 4 players eligibilty and now.

Let's line them up stats to stats and see if you are right that all were "more deserving." Come on, you're a gambling man.

Don't make me git rough with you!!!

You give me too much credit.
I don't vote in the HOF.
But considering stats -- IF THE HOF DID AHERE STRICTLY ON THEM -- y que?
Did an individual player compete in the 500s? 60s? This century?
Face it, comparable stats between some guy in the late 60s and early 70s and another who competed this century -- there is a difference. It's called level of competition.
Also, against what teams did they complete? How stocked was the individual team? For what time period?
If you compare stats -- and the HOF committee is not per se -- then you'd get some guy from the 50s who would be better (statistically speaking) than some recent greats. And that is just not right.

It remains subjective.
Just like our little get-together here.

 

[MrMom]

It's not homerism I'm putting forth, it is objective common sense. If you admit you didn't follow those players that closely, why don't you just admit you don't know enough about Howley to evaluate his career properly?

his shtick won't allow it.

 

[Hostile]

Don't make me git rough with you!!!

You give me too much credit.
I don't vote in the HOF.
But considering stats -- IF THE HOF DID AHERE STRICTLY ON THEM -- y que?
Did an individual player compete in the 500s? 60s? This century?
Face it, comparable stats between some guy in the late 60s and early 70s and another who competed this century -- there is a difference. It's called level of competition.
Also, against what teams did they complete? How stocked was the individual team? For what time period?
If you compare stats -- and the HOF committee is not per se -- then you'd get some guy from the 50s who would be better (statistically speaking) than some recent greats. And that is just not right.

It remains subjective.
Just like our little get-together here.

You know you like it rough.

All voting is subjective. The existence of bias is not subjective. I believe there's too much evidence to ignore it.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

"I never followed these guys that closely, but I will give an opinion on a player who played then, stick by it no matter what evidence is supplied to demonstrate that I'm wrong, and then defend my stubborness with the 'it's all subjective' line."

I'm not saying that Howley should be in. I was too young to see Howley's career. And I know that Larry Brown was a Super Bowl MVP and that was your comparison. I still say that it was a very poor comparison because the Super Bowl MVP is not the only thing that Howley has on his resume. It wasn't the "dog had his day" thing that you suggest. He was a Pro Bowler, he was an All NFL performer, and he did it multiple times.

It's not homerism I'm putting forth, it is objective common sense. If you admit you didn't follow those players that closely, why don't you just admit you don't know enough about Howley to evaluate his career properly?

Yo, so now it it objective common sense.

Well,you are chatting up the wrong guy. Address your homeric sentiments to wearebiasedatNFLHOF.com
yeah, that will work.

:laugh2:
And sorry for not being a Howley expert. Like I said, players from this century are so much better at what they do than what was done in the latter half of the last century, hence the au currant interest.

 

[rcaldw]

Yo, so now it it objective common sense.

Well,you are chatting up the wrong guy. Address your homeric sentiments to wearebiasedatNFLHOF.com
yeah, that will work.

:laugh2:
And sorry for not being a Howley expert. Like I said, players from this century are so much better at what they do than what was done in the latter half of the last century, hence the au currant interest.

First off, I'm not worked up over it. Second, I don't blame you for not knowing about Howley, all I know is what I have see on NFL films. The only thing I took issue with is that you admit you don't know much about him. "Sorry for not being a Howley expert", yet you confidently put him down as a 2nd tier player? Just doesn't seem to square.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

First off, I'm not worked up over it. Second, I don't blame you for not knowing about Howley, all I know is what I have see on NFL films. The only thing I took issue with is that you admit you don't know much about him. "Sorry for not being a Howley expert", yet you confidently put him down as a 2nd tier player? Just doesn't seem to square.

How quickly we jump to conclusions.

I am not an Aikman expert, but I did follow his heroics. Not a Walt Garrison expert but I did watch him play in his heyday. From what I know and from what I surmise, Howley just does not register as a HOFer. A Pro Bowler? A stalwart for the Cowboys? Yes to both. A HOFer? Not convinced.
You may think differently.
The committee may think differently.
Yet it all comes down to what the committee digests and then spits out.
And at the end of the day it is all . . . there is that word again . . . subjective.
As Jimma Carter once said, Life is not fay-ah.
Until now, Chuck may have thought the same thing. And I feel for him.
He may yet ascend to that pantheon that the very few arrive at, but let me know when he does. I gotta feeling you would, anyway, homer.

And I say that with all due respect cause I am one myself. Just not when it comes for Chucky.

 

[rcaldw]

How quickly we jump to conclusions.

I am not an Aikman expert, but I did follow his heroics. Not a Walt Garrison expert but I did watch him play in his heyday. From what I know and from what I surmise, Howley just does not register as a HOFer. A Pro Bowler? A stalwart for the Cowboys? Yes to both. A HOFer? Not convinced.
You may think differently.
The committee may think differently.
Yet it all comes down to what the committee digests and then spits out.
And at the end of the day it is all . . . there is that word again . . . subjective.
As Jimma Carter once said, Life is not fay-ah.
Until now, Chuck may have thought the same thing. And I feel for him.
He may yet ascend to that pantheon that the very few arrive at, but let me know when he does. I gotta feeling you would, anyway, homer.

And I say that with all due respect cause I am one myself. Just not when it comes for Chucky.

Hehe. Well, I'll leave it with this. If you have come to your conclusions on "Chucky", the same way you have put me into the "homer" category, then I stand by my observations, and rest my case. It is obvious you don't know either of us that well.

Rc