Brice > Dez?

[mattjames2010]

Pass #2

Dez did catch this and he held on all the way. Would have been six. He just couldn't keep himself in bounds. This is certainly the type of thing Dez does better than anyone. High Points the ball and stays strong maintaining possession. Alas...no catch and no TD.

Yeah, lack of separation from one of the better corners in the league. They do this to other receivers as well, dude.
Man, this is irritating.

Antonio Brown - 6 catches, 54 yards, 9 yard average
AJ Green - 7 catches, 68 yards, 9 yard average
Brandin Cooks - 7 catches, 67 yards, 9 yard average
Jordy Nelson - 4 catches, 37 yards, 9 yard average

It's not as though elite or very good receivers destroy these corners. Their catches are up due to these teams forcing the ball to them and having higher attempts. I don't know if you're trolling, drunk, or just lazy - but Dez had a chance for about 2-3 more catches yesterday but Dak simply wasn't that accurate. He would have been pretty close to equaling these guys in yards and had a TD.

And looking at last years stats, it looks like the only WR they gave up over 100 yards to was Pryor. I have no idea how many of those yards came in garbage time since they were down by 3 scores.

 

[Bullflop]

I know it will sound as sacrilege to some, but I'm beginning to wonder if Butler is a better weapon than Dez Bryant. I raise this question despite what I see with Dez: increased maturity and improved chemistry with Dak.

Amongst the WR core Butler features the best speed...he's much faster than Dez. He is tall, long and has good hands. He's the one outside receiver who can separate with pure speed.

Dez still has the strongest hands, and is undoubtedly the guy with the most overall athletic ability. Dez can out-muscle a lot of guys.

OK...I'm not ready yet to say Brice is better. I can't say that. But I'm wondering about it.

I have to doubt Brice is better overall. He does appear to get open with better consistency than Dez, due largely to better speed. Dez is much better physically equipped to contest for the ball vs. close coverage and getting yardage after the catch, however. I do think Butler has really improved considerably over what he was when we first got him. He was actually a pleasant surprise to the staff in terms of his improved performance throughout TC. I'm hoping to see him being used more often this year.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Dez had a chance for about 2-3 more catches yesterday but Dak simply wasn't that accurate.

That's why this thread doesn't work for most around here.

 

[T-RO]

Yeah, lack of separation from one of the better corners in the league. They do this to other receivers as well, dude.
Man, this is irritating.

Antonio Brown - 6 catches, 54 yards, 9 yard average
AJ Green - 7 catches, 68 yards, 9 yard average
Brandin Cooks - 7 catches, 67 yards, 9 yard average
Jordy Nelson - 4 catches, 37 yards, 9 yard average

It's not as though elite or very good receivers destroy these corners. Their catches are up due to these teams forcing the ball to them and having higher attempts. I don't know if you're trolling, drunk, or just lazy - but Dez had a chance for about 2-3 more catches yesterday but Dak simply wasn't that accurate. He would have been pretty close to equaling these guys in yards and had a TD.

And looking at last years stats, it looks like the only WR they gave up over 100 yards to was Pryor. I have no idea how many of those yards came in garbage time since they were down by 3 scores.

People have a hard time with upstream contrarian thinking. Especially when favorite players are involved. I get it.

I really don't know enough about Brice except that there is promise. What we can see in stark black and white with Dez---if we are objective-- is decline.

I don't care about counting stats nearly so much as efficiency stats. And that's where Dez has really fallen short the past few years.

In 2014 when working with Tony Romo Dez enjoyed a catch rate of 65%. Especially when factoring in his yards-per-catch that was awesome.

Since then:
2015: 43%
2016: 52%
2017: 22% (Yes there will be a big bounce back)

These numbers aren't just poor...they are near the bottom of the league.

Dez doesn't have the speed nor the quickness to create separation...and his route-running is below average.

Yes I believe he should have a considerable role in the offense, but I think the team should look to reduce his role somewhat if things don't change over the next 8-10 games in terms of these efficiency numbers. We need to see something close to 60%.

 

[T-RO]

That's why this thread doesn't work for most around here.

This thread isn't rooted in one game. Far from it.

We need Dak friendly receivers...and as averse as Dak is w/interceptions I'm not convinced he's comfortable throwing to Dez when he's covered...as Tony was.

Dez has tremendous ball skills and is an insanely good athlete. I have little doubt he'll go off for a few 100+ yard games when we face primary zone defenses or weak corners.

This warrants evaluation as the season advances with possible re-focusing of who deserves the most targets down the stretch or working to customize the attack given the nature of the defense and opposing personnel.

 

[mattjames2010]

People have a hard time with upstream contrarian thinking. Especially when favorite players are involved. I get it.

I really don't know enough about Brice except that there is promise. What we can see in stark black and white with Dez---if we are objective-- is decline.

I don't care about counting stats nearly so much as efficiency stats. And that's where Dez has really fallen short the past few years.

In 2014 when working with Tony Romo Dez enjoyed a catch rate of 65%. Especially when factoring in his yards-per-catch that was awesome.

Since then:
2015: 43%
2016: 52%
2017: 22% (Yes there will be a big bounce back)

These numbers aren't just poor...they are near the bottom of the league.

Dez doesn't have the speed nor the quickness to create separation...and his route-running is below average.

Yes I believe he should have a considerable role in the offense, but I think the team should look to reduce his role somewhat if things don't change over the next 8-10 games in terms of these efficiency numbers. We need to see something close to 60%.

So, in 2015 when he was being targeted by Weeden, Cassel, and Moore. Then a rookie Dak Prescott who isn't great with those big play throws just yet - even still, in 13 games on a run first team, he still put up 700 yards and 8 TDs.

Dez isn't a 4.3 guy, he's a 4.5 guy with RAC ability and power. Your entire thread is based around "Brice > Dez" - dude, you'd be laughed out of the room if you walked in and told ANY coach this. It's absolutely absurd.

Brice is a 3rd or 4th WR on nearly every single team in this league. He's a 1 or 2 catch guy a game, if that. He's a guy you hit on a post route, but outside of that, he has nothing special in his game unlike Dez. Can anyone even point to me where Brice had a lot of RAC? I remember that Saints game in 2015, outside of that, he's a post and slant guy that gets taken down immediately.

This is the Ogletree and Crayton effect. Remember these guys being talked up? In limited reps, these guys will flash - the more you put on them, it shows their limitations. It's the same with Butler. Butler in 3 years won't even be remembered by fans here.

 

[mattjames2010]

This thread isn't rooted in one game. Far from it.

We need Dak friendly receivers...and as averse as Dak is w/interceptions I'm not convinced he's comfortable throwing to Dez when he's covered...as Tony was.

Dez has tremendous ball skills and is an insanely good athlete. I have little doubt he'll go off for a few 100+ yard games when we face primary zone defenses or weak corners.

This warrants evaluation as the season advances with possible re-focusing of who deserves the most targets down the stretch.

"Dak friendly receivers" LOL - How about Dak not throw the ball 10 feet above the head of a 6'2 WR. Is that reasonable, or should we start looking for Calvin Johnson's with godly wingspans to help Dak out?

 

[blindzebra]

Didn't Butler have a big drop on 3rd down? Drops are something he is better than Dez at, he had several last year that killed drives and 2 that I remember that led to turnovers.

 

[stilltheguru88]

I ignore questions from those who can't keep it civil.

I don't care what you do. Use common sense next time. Butler isn't even better than Williams yet you compare him to Dez. Be quiet

 

[T-RO]

"Dak friendly receivers" LOL - How about Dak not throw the ball 10 feet above the head of a 6'2 WR. Is that reasonable, or should we start looking for Calvin Johnson's with godly wingspans to help Dak out?

Dak did badly overthrow Dez on that 3rd and goal play. We are talking about lots more than just a play or two.

Answer me this. Why is Dak's completion percentage right about 50% with Dez and near 70% when throwing to everyone else?

 

[mattjames2010]

Dak did badly overthrow Dez on that 3rd and goal play. We are talking about lots more than just a play or two.

Answer me this. Why is Dak's completion percentage right about 50% with Dez and near 70% when throwing to everyone else?

It most likely has to do with routes or number of targets per game - are you comparing this to Beasley and Witten? Beasley and Witten are 5-10 yard guys who are RAC. Also, are you saying Williams is "QB friendly" - I like Williams more than most here, but he's now - he's a guy that tends to body catch, which cancels out catch radius. I think Williams is a solid #2 - but he's no Dez either.

Here is the thing, Dez is a guy that can run every route, get you the big plays, and is a monster redzone target. This...is why he's a #1. This is why he was a first round talent.

But again, point of your thread - "Butler > Dez" - Stick to it, champ. You're comparing a guy who had 16 catches last year, 16. To someone who had 50 catches and a lot more targets in 13 games.

 

[Blackspider214]

Sunday night Dez

9 Targets, 2 catches, 4.77 yards per attempt (22% catch rate)

He didn't have any bad drops I remember. Seemed to keep his head in the game. But Dak and Dez didn't get it going much at all.

For comparison...
Dak to Dez: 2-9
Dak to Everyone Else: 22-30

Dez has a limited route tree. It's not a coincidence Dak has much better success with the other receivers. Seems way too many passes to Dez have a low percentage of being caught because they are down the field or jump balls. It gets annoying when you can tell Linehan is trying to force feed him the ball. Because we all know what Dez will do if he's not involved. He will throw a tantrum.

I'm not saying Butler is better than Dez but Dak and this offense being the most crisp it was when Dez was hurt was not by chance. Dak didn't have to worry about forcing the ball to Dez.

 

[Zman5]

People have a hard time with upstream contrarian thinking. Especially when favorite players are involved. I get it.

I really don't know enough about Brice except that there is promise. What we can see in stark black and white with Dez---if we are objective-- is decline.

I don't care about counting stats nearly so much as efficiency stats. And that's where Dez has really fallen short the past few years.

In 2014 when working with Tony Romo Dez enjoyed a catch rate of 65%. Especially when factoring in his yards-per-catch that was awesome.

Since then:
2015: 43%
2016: 52%
2017: 22% (Yes there will be a big bounce back)

These numbers aren't just poor...they are near the bottom of the league.

Dez doesn't have the speed nor the quickness to create separation...and his route-running is below average.

Yes I believe he should have a considerable role in the offense, but I think the team should look to reduce his role somewhat if things don't change over the next 8-10 games in terms of these efficiency numbers. We need to see something close to 60%.

Your stats should give a hint that Dez isn't the only variable in the catch rate equation.
2014 season was with Romo. That season would have been 5th season they've been playing together. 2015 is not even worth explaining and 2016 was first season with Dak who was a rookie. Even Romo needed a season or so to get the timing down with Dez. I hope you aren't expecting the same results this quickly.

Also, as great as Dak has been, he isn't at Romo's level as a passer yet. I'm sure he'll get there given time but I think some people's expectation are too high too soon.

 

[mattjames2010]

So, I just went deeper into the stats since I guess i will be the only one doing this. Comparing to Williams, the only one on our team getting true deep shots down the field and not dumpoffs.

His stats don't even look bad, he has 3 games bringing them down

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/13215/year/2016

The first 2 are the Giants games, he was 2 out of 14 targets (Dak sucked in these games), the other is the Eagles game where he was 4 of 14 (Dak sucked in this game). The only unusual game on there seemed to be the Browns game, 1 of 4. Outside of this, Dez caught more than 50% of his targets.

Lock this thread, there is nothing else to discuss. I mean, it's pointless to even bring up Butler's stats because he's irrelevant in most of the games he plays in.

 

[mattjames2010]

Dez has a limited route tree. It's not a coincidence Dak has much better success with the other receivers. Seems way too many passes to Dez have a low percentage of being caught because they are down the field or jump balls. It gets annoying when you can tell Linehan is trying to force feed him the ball. Because we all know what Dez will do if he's not involved. He will throw a tantrum.

I'm not saying Butler is better than Dez but Dak and this offense being the most crisp it was when Dez was hurt was not by chance. Dak didn't have to worry about forcing the ball to Dez.

Stop spewing nonsense - our offense actually got BETTER as the year went on last year.

 

[stilltheguru88]

Dez is one game removed from 9 receptions 132 yards and 2 tds in a playoff game.

I hate our fans sometimes.

Same playoff game where Brice had a key drop? Oh ok, that game.

 

[T-RO]

...a rookie Dak Prescott who isn't great with those big play throws just yet - even still, in 13 games on a run first team, he still put up 700 yards and 8 TDs.

Keep it real

2016:
Dez Bryant was targeted 97 times...and posted 796 yards.
Adam Thielen (on horrible offense) targeted 92 times...posted 967 yards

Tonight Thielen was targeted 10 times...caught 9...15.7 yards per attempt.

Dez isn't a 4.3 guy, he's a 4.5 guy with RAC ability and power.

Dez might have been a 4.5 guy out of college. He absolutely isn't that now. Brice ran a 4.3x at his college day.

Can anyone even point to me where Brice had a lot of RAC? I remember that Saints game in 2015, outside of that, he's a post and slant guy that gets taken down immediately.

Fair enough point. I certainly don't recall Brice demonstrating a lot of RAC. And I readily concede Dez is one of the best after the catch.

 

[Cmac]

Stop....simply stop.

 

[T-RO]

Chris Collins was absolutely raving on Brice both in the preseason game and on Sunday night.

I concede it's unlikely Brice will ever catch 60 balls in a season. Probably not even 50. But I'd like to see him more involved in the offense...and some of the balls going to Dez...should be going BB's way.

We will likely need to look for a premium outside receiver (1st or 2nd round) in the draft either this year or the year after.

 

[Trouty]

Chris Collins was absolutely raving on Brice both in the preseason game and on Sunday night.

I concede it's unlikely Brice will ever catch 60 balls in a season. Probably not even 50. But I'd like to see him more involved in the offense...and some of the balls going to Dez...should be going BB's way.

We are going to need to look for a premium outside receiver (1st or 2nd round) in the draft either this year or the year after.

This should be the subject of your thread, not the current header, RO.