BTB Vela: The Last Time Dallas Had a Football Guy in Charge...

[InmanRoshi]

That was a pretty long breakdown. I can pretty much sum up Jerry's reign as a GM pretty briefly.

Second longest streak in the NFL without a playoff win, behind only the Detroit Lions.

Any questions?

 

[theebs]

If a mod is reading this can I please actually insult him so he can get a feel of what it is.

And I am sorry but "the nonsense this organization brought on itself, it is an indicator of serious internal problems" as you say is not specific. I addressed it with "panic at the boogeyman because the pied pipers say so."

Oh your just being snooty with me all the time and not insulting me, okay.

remember you have to talk slow with me, your much smarter than me as you said yesterday.

and umm, the distractions are real. When the team is part of a reality show during training camp and the first ones off the plane are cheerleaders......well you have distractions.

If you cant see the distractions thats an issue you need to deal with.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That was a pretty long breakdown. I can pretty much sum up Jerry's reign as a GM pretty briefly.

Second longest streak in the NFL without a playoff win, behind only the Detroit Lions.

Any questions?

Yeah do you have any proof of causation? Proving cause is difficult sure but on its own this argument is worthless. Inductive arguments typically are.

I believe its called a fallacy of questionable cause.

Juraszek was the weight coach too. Lets blame him too.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh your just being snooty with me all the time and not insulting me, okay.

remember you have to talk slow with me, your much smarter than me as you said yesterday.

and umm, the distractions are real. When the team is part of a reality show during training camp and the first ones off the plane are cheerleaders......well you have distractions.

If you cant see the distractions thats an issue you need to deal with.

No I never said that I was smarter than you. I dont really know you and cannot really know what your ability to reason or recall things of different disciplines is. I kow what mine is and how it compares to people that I do know and thus I come to that conclusion.

And I am sorry but IMO the distractions for the most part are not generated internally. I see JFE, Galloway and JJT writing the same tired articles every week trying to tell us that is the case. That is not the case. They are appealing to fear and bias and it sells. I am not buying.

Even if I accept that Werder was riught and that TO was upset that Witten was getting looked to more, I look and see other players say they went to Garrett as well. Then I have no context to compare it too. Do I really think that no ohter teams have players going to the OC to talk about their involvement in the offense? Do I wonder if TO was singled out because he makes for good television?

As for the late Watkin's story, even if I ignore all of the other conflicting reports with which I tend to give more creedence then even then it lacks context. Do I think that other teams don't have tardiness? No so how much tardiness is in other teams facilities. How does that compare with ours.

Again I am not just going to assume the worst.

Then I look to empirical evidence. Past results are the best indicator of future results. Well the most recent example would be the 2007 Giants. They had a disappointing season, a former player making a circus, making claims about the locker room etc. Their fanbase was in meltdown and angered about Coughlin not being fired.

The parallels are actually uncanny. At least their source had the gonads to own up to themselves. But regardless, how did that turn out?

Oh I know that there are distractions. I simply don't put nearly as much stock into them as most around here do. I put them a distant third behind injuries and backup depth at positions like OG and QB.

There is no question in my mind that the injuries to Barber and Kosier alone had more to do with our late season issues than all of the TO, Jones, Wade, Garrett, Pacman, Tank et al boogeymen put together.

 

[wileedog]

Roy Williams also went to the Pro-Bowl.... Tony Romo only broke 300 twice, with Parcells as the coach. He only threw that many yards against the Cardinals and Detroit, two pathetic defensive teams. Otherwise, he was sniffing the mid-250s, and he was healthy.

That is not the numebrs of a top 3-4 QB...

He had a 95.1 rating, a completion % of 65 and an average YPA of 8.6. He threw for almost 3000 yards and 19 TDs in 10 games. That was his first 10 games EVER.
]
You want to criticize Parcells for something, criticize him for not coming out of the TC with Romo as the starter, because I bet we would not be having this conversation now. But sweet jeebus what more do you expect from a QB? What more was Parcells supposed to get out of him, especially in a ball control offense?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He had a 95.1 rating, a completion % of 65 and an average YPA of 8.6. He threw for almost 3000 yards and 19 TDs in 10 games. That was his first 10 games EVER.
]
You want to criticize Parcells for something, criticize him for not coming out of the TC with Romo as the starter, because I bet we would not be having this conversation now. But sweet jeebus what more do you expect from a QB? What more was Parcells supposed to get out of him, especially in a ball control offense?

Sparano was much more committed to the run game. That was with a inferior stable too.

 

[theebs]

He had a 95.1 rating, a completion % of 65 and an average YPA of 8.6. He threw for almost 3000 yards and 19 TDs in 10 games. That was his first 10 games EVER.
]
You want to criticize Parcells for something, criticize him for not coming out of the TC with Romo as the starter, because I bet we would not be having this conversation now. But sweet jeebus what more do you expect from a QB? What more was Parcells supposed to get out of him, especially in a ball control offense?

Isnt it ironic how when romo played bad when parcells was here, it was parcells fault as all these guys put it, but now Its garrets fault!!

Just like the special teams play in washington in 06, that was parcells fault and the one in 08 was bruce reads fault....see a pattern.

these guys love to jump everyone but they never have their facts straight and dis-credit their own comments constantly.

but whatever.

 

[wileedog]

One shred of evidence of this? You have no proof much less a clue of what Jerry did or did not do as a result of these things. Clearly my backside.

No I think I will believe you over the beat writers that reported this numerous times.

We aren't bringing Pac back because his on the field performance wasn't all that.

His performance as a CB was much better than anything Jacque Reeves ever did and he was being paid just about as much. If there was seriously zero issue with him off the field he would be a no brainer as depth at that price, even if he never returned another punt.

It was a 6th which went up from a 7th when we added Ayodele. Sounds a bout right to me.

For two NFL starters? Serioiusly, neither was getting big bucks, you were better off keeping them for depth.

Anderson is a starter and Folk goes to probowls and is one of the top 5 kickers in the league. Ill take that from 5th and 6th rounders every year.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone call a draft a success because you got a completely replaceable JAG fullback and a kicker. Kudos on Folk, whiff the rest of the draft so far.

Stanback was a project WR in the fourth round. How was that stupid?

Because he is a QB with no burst and better players were available at the time.

If we want a WR draft a WR. Or if you absolutely must convert a QB do it in the 7th like Crayton. Its a waste of a 4th round pick.

 

[yimyammer]

I am no Jones basher. But that story is very slanted and miopic.

Yes, lets look at the 2006 offseason, take as dim a view as possible of it and pay no attention at all to the other Parcells offseasons.

I'm no worshipper of Parcells either.

But folks who are upset with Jones as GM will find absolutely no comfort in this story which seems to be Vela's agenda.

I can conrirm this

 

[InmanRoshi]

Yeah do you have any proof of causation?

Yeah, they're called the 1996-2003 NFL Drafts.

It's a lot more plausible than the idea that Jerry's just had a 12 year spell of "bad luck".

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No I think I will believe you over the beat writers that reported this numerous times.

I say they haven't met the burden of proof and its specious that they have motivations via selling papers to keep the mania high. But hey panic is FUN!

So essentially its true because they told you so. Do you have anything else like specific examples. I am quite fond of those for some reason.

His performance as a CB was much better than anything Jacque Reeves ever did and he was being paid just about as much. If there was seriously zero issue with him off the field he would be a no brainer as depth at that price, even if he never returned another punt.

Reeves hasn't played for us in over a year and we let him go if you remember. Jones salary actually escalates each year. We also know what we have with Jenkins and Scandrick. The fact that he got suspended means he is a risk to not be on the field very much.

None of that translates to locker room issues. Again you have a single specific example?

For two NFL starters? Serioiusly, neither was getting big bucks, you were better off keeping them for depth.

Trading Ayodele was the right thing to do. He wasn't going to start because we brought in Thomas and he did not want to stay. Fasano wouldn't have started here either and while he had a renaissance in Miami he was missing block and blitzpickups while he was here. He would have beaten out Curtis yay!!

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone call a draft a success because you got a completely replaceable JAG fullback and a kicker. Kudos on Folks, whiff the rest of the draft so far.

You should be hard pressed to call a draft a bust after 2 years as well.

Folk and Anderson are starters. You can throw JAG or other ad hominems out there all you want but our run and ST game suffers when he is out.

So I am assuming that you are trying to say that Spencer is a bust? And you don't care about the additional first rounder?

Because he is a QB with no burst and better players were available at the time.

If we want a WR draft a WR. Or if you absolutely must convert a QB do it in the 7th like Crayton. Its a waste of a 4th round pick.

No burst? Whatever you obviously don't know much about him. His ability to cut is superb. And Crayton isn't nearly the athlete that Stanback is.

The 4th is exactly the spot you pick high risk high reward athlete projects like him.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah, they're called the 1996-2003 NFL Drafts.

It's a lot more plausible than the idea that Jerry's just had a 12 year spell of "bad luck".

The 2003 draft was good. Actually so was the 2002. At least get your facts right. 1994 and 1995 were bad as well. We still have players on the squad from those drafts

But that doesn't show causation. That would be an effect. Your close though. Or are you trying to say that Gurode, Williams, Newman, Witten and James are the reason why we lost to Philly and those three playoff games? Actually the 2002 and 2003 drafts disprove your point.

Jerry's strategy of drafting backups during the mid to late 90s did cause a lot of problems during that time period.

But your claiming that as support for your position now and he does not draft like that anymore. Thus you have shown no causation for the here and now.

And no I don't call it bad luck. Thats your word. I also think you cherry pick the playoff stat and trump it as meaningful. Thats a fallacy to appealing to bias.

 

[yimyammer]

Hell, Larry Fitzgerald's father came out and said his son was a die-hard Cowboys fan and wanted to play for them...

I wondered when I heard this if this wasn't just a ploy to help his son get paid in Zona. It seems like Dallas has become the team where players want to get their last big contract before they retire and enjoy the breezy, low pressure coaching environment where no one gets cut, pushed or criticised.

 

[Bach]

Yeah, they're called the 1996-2003 NFL Drafts.

It's a lot more plausible than the idea that Jerry's just had a 12 year spell of "bad luck".

Not to mention Switzer, Gailey, Campo and now Wade. And then on top of it, Jerry meddling and controlling the staff and underming them at every turn just so he can be in charge and "do it his way".

Anyone still defending Jerry after all these years has got to be a moron of epic proportions or a family member.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

are we actually arguing who has the better eye for talent

Jerry Jones or Bill Parcells?

seriously?

SERIOUSLY?

 

[big dog cowboy]

I can pretty much sum up Jerry's reign as a GM pretty briefly.

Second longest streak in the NFL without a playoff win, behind only the Detroit Lions.

Any questions?

Just one, what about the Kansas City Chiefs playoff drought?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

HUH? You accused me as you always do of saying its the jerry does nothing right and parcells is great.

I clearly pointed out to you that I do not feel that way. And you start with your remarks and tell me to make a point worth a damn and I am pretty sure I did.

and no one gets credit for romo coming here. He saw the most pathetic qb situation in the league in quincy/hutch/stoerner and saw the quickest path to the field.

I am sure the fact that Jerry pays undrafted free agents more than any other owner didnt hurt and the fact that bill parcells is a legend and is willing to give young qb's a chance made Dallas attractive.

What parcells gets credit for when it comes to romo is, installing the work ethic, forcing to romo to get the most out of himself he could and surrounding him with terrific coaches in David lee, Tony sporano, Sean Payton, Todd Haley and early on Mo carthon. He wasnt rushed and he was brought up the old school way. that is what bill gets credit for.

no kidding, to add to that, Mike Shanahan offerd Romo more than Dallas did

 

[LucaBrasi]

That was a pretty long breakdown. I can pretty much sum up Jerry's reign as a GM pretty briefly.

Second longest streak in the NFL without a playoff win, behind only the Detroit Lions.

Any questions?

None for me. Thank You

 

[wileedog]

I say they haven't met the burden of proof and its specious that they have motivations via selling papers to keep the mania high. But hey panic is FUN!

I say the sky is purple. Prove me wrong.

So essentially its true because they told you so. Do you have anything else like specific examples. I am quite fond of those for some reason.

Until I get the back stage pass into the working of the team, I have to rely on the people who actually spend a heck of a lot more time in VR than you or I.

They could be completely wrong, that is true. But so could you, and you have a heck of a lot less to go on than they do.

Reeves hasn't played for us in over a year and we let him go if you remember. Jones salary actually escalates each year. We also know what we have with Jenkins and Scandrick. The fact that he got suspended means he is a risk to not be on the field very much.

The fact that he is locker room poison means more. Why is this so hard for you to admit? He showed up to practice in freaking pajamas once.

And while I love Scandrick we are no where near knowing anything on Jenkins, who was burned far more than Pacman was and also showed a propensity to, ah, make "business decisions" when it comes to tackling.

I can't stress this enough - if Pacman and his issues were no problem he would be solid value at his price tag, even if it escalated some. He played well enough and far better than any of the other 'depth' corners on the team. There is a reason he is not here, and your refusal to admit that doesn't change that.

Trading Ayodele was the right thing to do. He wasn't going to start because we brought in Thomas and he did not want to stay. Fasano wouldn't have started here either and while he had a renaissance in Miami he was missing block and blitzpickups while he was here. He would have beaten out Curtis yay!!

Why trade a good player for nothing? Whatever, minor stuff either way.

You should be hard pressed to call a draft a bust after 2 years as well.

Nor did I, not yet.

Folk and Anderson are starters. You can throw JAG or other ad hominems out there all you want but our run and ST game suffers when he is out.

Average fullbacks are a dime a dozen. You just are not going to sell me that a draft is better than it was because of a FB and a kicker.

How many teams have missed the playoffs and lamented afterwords "Oh, if only we had an average fullback!"

So I am assuming that you are trying to say that Spencer is a bust?

How many times do I have to say *IF* he has another poor year?

He has 4.5 sacks in two seasons and he was less than stellar against the run. Another less than 5 sack season and yes you have to start throwing out the B word.

And you don't care about the additional first rounder?

If the best thing that came out of your draft is another pick in the next draft, then it sucked.

No burst? Whatever you obviously don't know much about him. His ability to cut is superb.

As evidenced by his amazing special team return ability where he dazzled everyone with an above league average return rate and his ST TD's.

Oh wait, he looked like crap on STs.

And Crayton isn't nearly the athlete that Stanback is.

And yet Crayton has made a quick and steady transition to WR and Stanback is still working on route running.

The 4th is exactly the spot you pick high risk high reward athlete projects like him.

I disagree entirely. You want a project WR, you draft a raw small school WR in the 4th. You want a project QB, you draft a raw, unpolished QB in the 4th.

You want to take a QB and move him to WR you don't do it in the 4th.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I say the sky is purple. Prove me wrong.

Give me a spectrometer and I will. Anyway its not a priori so spare me.

Until I get the back stage pass into the working of the team, I have to rely on the people who actually spend a heck of a lot more time in VR than you or I.

They could be completely wrong, that is true. But so could you, and you have a heck of a lot less to go on than they do.

They don't all agree. If it was a consensus then you would have a point. Its the typical sensationalist spewing for your trough.

Try again but its obvious which side you will listen to. And as if Galloway and JFE really have an ear to the locker room. I am very sure they are on the top of VR people's list to talk to.

The fact that he is locker room poison means more. Why is this so hard for you to admit? He showed up to practice in freaking pajamas once.

Have a link to this I did a search of "terrell owens pajamas" and nothing was on the first two pages. Even if I were to buy that what does that have to do with being a troublemaker? Sounds more like a class clown to me.

And while I love Scandrick we are no where near knowing anything on Jenkins, who was burned far more than Pacman was and also showed a propensity to, ah, make "business decisions" when it comes to tackling.

BS he was burned more often than Pac. Maybe in the first half of the season but after Pac came back after suspension he was Glennesque out there. He likes to gamble and he paid for it a lot.

Jenkins was fine in coverage. He would make mistakes in zone coverage leaving his ma when he shouldn't but from a physical standpoint he showed he could do the job AND he got better as the season went on. Thats typical for a rookie QB.

I can't stress this enough - if Pacman and his issues were no problem he would be solid value at his price tag, even if it escalated some. He played well enough and far better than any of the other 'depth' corners on the team. There is a reason he is not here, and your refusal to admit that doesn't change that.

Why trade a good player for nothing? Whatever, minor stuff either way.

At least give a comparison or something not just this I say it is so so it must be true garbage. It is minor stuff but you use it to pile up your take. Its a stack of innuendo and bullcrap.

Pacman is one step away from a lifetime ban now that he got suspended again. The incident wasn't all that severe and he got 4 games. Even if he had been playing well that would still make his status a huge concern. Its like paying a huge risk.

Does that make him a locker room cancer? No it doesn't because every other indication was that he came to practice and meetings worked hard and kept his mouth shut.

Hes a drunk off the field not in the locker room.

Nor did I, not yet.

Way to skirt the issue. I am beginning to realize that you have no desire to actually debate anything. Instead you think everything you say should be self evident. Sure ignore that you said it was 'well on its way' to a failure.

Average fullbacks are a dime a dozen. You just are not going to sell me that a draft is better than it was because of a FB and a kicker.

Name 10 FBs that are better than him and qualify your statement. YOur word is far from gold. And they are 5th and 6th round draft picks. Yeah Folk and Anderson were busts and show failure.

How many teams have missed the playoffs and lamented afterwords "Oh, if only we had an average fullback!"

I don't know but the Chargers and Seahawks attribute a lot of success to theirs.

How many times do I have to say *IF* he has another poor year?

He has 4.5 sacks in two seasons and he was less than stellar against the run. Another less than 5 sack season and yes you have to start throwing out the B word.

Who are you to say he had a poor year and actually he showed major improvement against the run this past year. If you did not notice that youre just not paying attention. He got the starting nod over Ellis because of it.

If the best thing that came out of your draft is another pick in the next draft, then it sucked.

It was first rounder and three starters so far. Yeah thats awful.

[quoteAs evidenced by his amazing special team return ability where he dazzled everyone with an above league average return rate and his ST TD's.

Oh wait, he looked like crap on STs.[/quote]

He has no experience as a kick returner but he had one run where he hit the wedge and made a superb cut and scooted up past midfield. Just because he only averaged 22 YPR doesn't show anything. Go watch some youtube of him and get back to me. Its pretty obvious youre just talking out your backside.

And yet Crayton has made a quick and steady transition to WR and Stanback is still working on route running.

And this proves what? That if Stanback would have been picked in the 7th he would have developed faster. I am getting a better feel for oyou football acumen as time goes by.

I disagree entirely. You want a project WR, you draft a raw small school WR in the 4th. You want a project QB, you draft a raw, unpolished QB in the 4th.

You want to take a QB and move him to WR you don't do it in the 4th.

I don't really care what you think anymore. Go look up other 4th round draft picks and get some idea of what teams do at that point. Its when teams start taking chances. Injury risks are taken there.

You would have a point if you said Matt Jones made sense in the 4th. Your comment just shows how clueless you really are.

I really think this is the last time I will deign to respond to you. This assumption you have that whatever you think is self evident and should be taken for granted is pretty boring and a waste of time. You posit nothing.

If I do not respond its not because I think youre right or dont have a retort. Its becasue i Don;t like wasting my time. Bring something to the table and arguing is a great learning experience. With you its nothing at all.