Bustaphobia...

peplaw06

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skinsscalper;1958833 said:
I can see your point to a certain extent. I think the fear this time around is the timing and value that we can get out of the current 2 #1s that we have this year. What I mean by that is the strength of this particular draft (CB,RB) in alignment with needs that we actually have and the availability of those positions exactly WHERE we draft. It's almost a perfect storm custom made for the Dallas Cowboys this year.

We have a need a RB. Check! There's value in the best RB class maybe in the history of the draft. CB? Check! We could end up nabbing a guy in the early 20's that could possibly be a top ten guy in ANY other weak CB class. The only real need that we have that isn't DEEP in this draft is WR. Which is why I can understand many wanting us to get the value there in the 1st (along with CB) and drafting a compliment to Barber in rounds 2 or 3 (which is conceivable with this year's depth).

If we blow our wad on one guy (presumably McFadden) then we are stuck with a tough decision of what need do we address in rounds 2-3 with a HUGE drop-off in talent in those need areas. That's IF we get McFadden for only our 2 #1s (I don't see that happening).

Your point is valid. We shouldn't be afraid to gamble and move up for a "can't miss". The problem is, I don't think anyone is convinced that McFadden is a "can't miss". I personally believe he has the highest bust factor of ANYONE in this entire draft. That's just me, though. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not any more qualified than any other poster as far as talent evaluation. It's just a gut thing. And my gut tells me McFadden isn't worth it, thus personally validating my own "fear of moving up" phenomenon.

Well we just disagree about McFadden's "bust factor" -- is that some kind of formula you made up?

But do you think the fact that it is a deep CB class gives you more or less nerve I guess to pull the trigger?

If you think we can get a good CB in the 2nd, then get a WR in free agency or by trade, filling the RB need with McFadden would look pretty good in my book. But personally, even if we can't get a WR by trade or FA, I think that the addition of McFadden would outweigh the addition of a rookie WR....
 

theogt

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Also, what's not mentioned in this analysis is the fact that RBs simply aren't that important to winning. The difference between an elite back and a solid back just doesn't mean much in terms of winning percentage.
 

big dog cowboy

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peplaw06;1958763 said:
Now I'm not advocating that we give up the farm to move up. But if the price is right... i.e. if we could get away with the two firsts (hell I'd throw in a 3rd-4th), I think the chances of hitting are better up in the Top 5-10.
I'd rather stay at 22 and 28 then give up three picks to move into the top 10. I don't think there is any player in this draft class worth that high a price.
 

skinsscalper

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peplaw06;1958950 said:
Well we just disagree about McFadden's "bust factor" -- is that some kind of formula you made up?

But do you think the fact that it is a deep CB class gives you more or less nerve I guess to pull the trigger?

If you think we can get a good CB in the 2nd, then get a WR in free agency or by trade, filling the RB need with McFadden would look pretty good in my book. But personally, even if we can't get a WR by trade or FA, I think that the addition of McFadden would outweigh the addition of a rookie WR....


The "bust factor", for me, would be what are we going to get out of it and how much is it going to cost in relationship with what a McFadden would bring to the team. In essence, risk vs. reward. The risk? Two #1 draft picks and insanely high cap consideration on a guy that has thus far been a one trick pony (a speed guy with a frail lower body). The reward? Some one to share the backfield with a RB that's already an All-Pro. Involve Barber in a trade to get McFadden and the move is even more risky. The potential for that whole thing to blow up in our faces is huge. Thus, my bust factor.

I, personally, don't think that McFadden would put this team over the top and into the Super Bowl. Whereas, considering this last season, quality depth at WR and CB may have.

Darren McFadden would cost almost any other team with a legitimate interest ONE DRAFT PICK. For us it's going to cost two. I don't see a single player in this entire draft worth two #1s. Surely not Darren McFadden.

If I thought we could get a decent CB in the 2nd and a Roy Williams or Fitzgerald in a trade or FA then it might make more sense. I don't think that we can. The drop-off in CB quality between pick number 22 (or 28) and 61 is HUGE. The trade for a RW or LF is going to cost a pick or two themselves. So now what? We've given away atleast a 2nd for RW (I'll use that as an example) and 2 #1s for McFadden. We still have a huge hole at CB depth and about three dollars in cap room to address it (saracastically speaking,of course). Along those same lines. What if we don't get Hamlin or Flo re-signed? All of a sudden LT and FS get quite a bit higher on the need lost don't they? Is McFadden still worth 2 #1s (and possibly more)?

McFadden would be worth more than a rookie WR. That, I will concede. But is he worth more than a WR, CB, and a serviceable RB to compliment our already Pro Bowl RB (which is quite possible what he would cost)? I'd prefer not to swap the meat of our draft for Herchel Walker (which is exactly what this whole thing wreaks of, to me. On a smaller scale, of course).

The fact that this whole draft falls right into our needs tells me that this is the wrong draft at the wrong time to get cute and ignore the opportunity to really get some quality depth and some guys to build the future around for the sake of swinging for the fences on a guy that this team, quite frankly, doesn't even need.

Your argument is compelling. No doubt about it. But as it stands, I think we are better off getting the value that this draft presents and standing pat with our picks. FA may have a twist or two that will completely change the landscape and my point of view but, as it stands, he isn't worth the investment.

Of course, McFadden could jump onto the NFL scene and light things up like Peterson and I could be sitting here a year later thinking: "****! I'm such an idiot. How could I NOT see this guy was going to be great?!" LOL. It's a tough call no matter how you look at it.;)
 

peplaw06

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Zaxor;1958932 said:
So lets say we gave up everything but the sign above the door for the very first pick in the draft.... Which should have the highest % of the "can't miss factor"

according to the names you gave us

JaMarcus Russell
Mario Williams
Alex Smith
Eli Manning
Carson Palmer
David Carr
Michael Vick
Courtney Brown
Tim Couch
Peyton Manning


Blue Chip player Pro Bowler (2 out of 10)
Incomplete (3 out of 10)
Major suckage (2 out of 10)
Not even in the league anymore (3 out of 10)

Now would you rather stake your chance on a SB that the one guy you draft is gonna be that 2 out of 10 Blue Chipper or would you rather a couple of shots at finding a guy that can help realize your dream of a SB...
Well go ahead and compare those guys to the #s 22 and 28 picks of the same years. If you really think that the groups of 22s and 28s are better than the group of #1s, then you need your head examined. Were any of those guys key ingredients in a Super Bowl win? If my count is right, only one of them has won a SB... RW McQuarters this year.

I don't see how Mario Williams and Eli Manning are "incomplete" either. Williams has played two seasons, and should have made the Pro Bowl this year. Eli has just won the Super Bowl. And Michael Vick was a pro bowler -- though his QB skills are debatable. It's unfortunate that he's a felon, but that's not a "bust" as you'd classically define one. It was his choices that have him out of the league right now, not his lack of talent.

I'd say 5 out of 9 were successful picks with Russell obviously yet to be determined. Show me another draft slot with a 56% success rate.
 

peplaw06

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theogt;1958957 said:
Also, what's not mentioned in this analysis is the fact that RBs simply aren't that important to winning. The difference between an elite back and a solid back just doesn't mean much in terms of winning percentage.
Not exactly where I intended for this to go. I stated at the beginning that this is an annual discussion, and not specific to McFadden, though I knew it would go there, because that's the present set of circumstances.

But since you mentioned it, exactly what position is it that has the highest correlation to winning percentage? Is it 3rd CB? Is it #2 WR? Aren't those really the only other two positions we're considering with our 2 firsts?
 

peplaw06

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skinsscalper;1959014 said:
The "bust factor", for me, would be what are we going to get out of it and how much is it going to cost in relationship with what a McFadden would bring to the team. In essence, risk vs. reward. The risk? Two #1 draft picks and insanely high cap consideration on a guy that has thus far been a one trick pony (a speed guy with a frail lower body). The reward? Some one to share the backfield with a RB that's already an All-Pro. Involve Barber in a trade to get McFadden and the move is even more risky. The potential for that whole thing to blow up in our faces is huge. Thus, my bust factor.
Frail lower body? Has he had a rash of leg injuries that I'm not aware of?

And judging by the past 10 years of picks at the 22 and 28 spots, what's the reward in those two positions? I don't think I ever advocated giving Barber in a trade... so you're preaching to the choir there. And as for any other pick other than the first rounders... I wouldn't throw in a second. I would consider a third, I'd definitely do a 4th. If you told me I could give up Marcus Spears, Bobby Carpenter and Skyler Green for McFadden, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I, personally, don't think that McFadden would put this team over the top and into the Super Bowl. Whereas, considering this last season, quality depth at WR and CB may have.
That's just a matter of opinion. And it's impossible to know.

Darren McFadden would cost almost any other team with a legitimate interest ONE DRAFT PICK. For us it's going to cost two. I don't see a single player in this entire draft worth two #1s. Surely not Darren McFadden.

If I thought we could get a decent CB in the 2nd and a Roy Williams or Fitzgerald in a trade or FA then it might make more sense. I don't think that we can. The drop-off in CB quality between pick number 22 (or 28) and 61 is HUGE. The trade for a RW or LF is going to cost a pick or two themselves. So now what? We've given away atleast a 2nd for RW (I'll use that as an example) and 2 #1s for McFadden. We still have a huge hole at CB depth and about three dollars in cap room to address it (saracastically speaking,of course). Along those same lines. What if we don't get Hamlin or Flo re-signed? All of a sudden LT and FS get quite a bit higher on the need lost don't they? Is McFadden still worth 2 #1s (and possibly more)?

McFadden would be worth more than a rookie WR. That, I will concede. But is he worth more than a WR, CB, and a serviceable RB to compliment our already Pro Bowl RB (which is quite possible what he would cost)? I'd prefer not to swap the meat of our draft for Herchel Walker (which is exactly what this whole thing wreaks of, to me. On a smaller scale, of course).
It's just a matter of preference, and I realize people are going to differ. But my ideal scenarios either way go something like this.

No trades
22 - Malcolm Kelly
28 - McKelvin, Cromartie or Jones
2nd round - If we go with Jones, then hope that Flowers or Cason fall this far, or if we go with CB at 28, hope that Rice falls this far.

Trades
McFadden for our firsts and a 4th (he would probably have to fall to pick 4-7 or so)
Roy Williams (maybe Fitzgerald) for our 2nd
In the 3rd take a CB who can step in and play Nickel right away, a Dejuan Tribble or Chevis Jackson.

If we're talking ideal scenarios, I think the second is better. Not to mention you have a lot more control with the trades. You can basically guarantee getting Williams and McFadden and you're at the mercy of other teams drafting on the 3rd rounder.

In the stand pat scenario, you're hoping everything falls exactly how you want it for three straight picks.

The fact that this whole draft falls right into our needs tells me that this is the wrong draft at the wrong time to get cute and ignore the opportunity to really get some quality depth and some guys to build the future around for the sake of swinging for the fences on a guy that this team, quite frankly, doesn't even need.

Your argument is compelling. No doubt about it. But as it stands, I think we are better off getting the value that this draft presents and standing pat with our picks. FA may have a twist or two that will completely change the landscape and my point of view but, as it stands, he isn't worth the investment.

Of course, McFadden could jump onto the NFL scene and light things up like Peterson and I could be sitting here a year later thinking: "****! I'm such an idiot. How could I NOT see this guy was going to be great?!" LOL. It's a tough call no matter how you look at it.;)
I agree if you don't think he's worth it. I just happen to think he is.
 

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Well, another thread confirms what we already know.....the draft is a crapshoot through and through. Once in a blue moon does a player roll around thats a lock.
 

theogt

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peplaw06;1959025 said:
Not exactly where I intended for this to go. I stated at the beginning that this is an annual discussion, and not specific to McFadden, though I knew it would go there, because that's the present set of circumstances.

But since you mentioned it, exactly what position is it that has the highest correlation to winning percentage? Is it 3rd CB? Is it #2 WR? Aren't those really the only other two positions we're considering with our 2 firsts?
Pass defense and pass offense for their respective sides of the ball (in terms of QB rating) have the highest correlation with winning percentage. They both have a very high correlation coefficient (.500+). Rushing YPA, offensively and defensively, has the lowest correlation coefficient (sub .100, IIRC). Sacks also have higher correlation with winning.

So, yes, I think a #3 corner or a #2 WR would be much more valuable than a RB splitting carries. And those are available for better values at #22 and #28.
 

skinsscalper

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peplaw06;1959054 said:
Frail lower body? Has he had a rash of leg injuries that I'm not aware of?

No, actually. And you do have a point. The kid hasn't been injury prone. He just seems so slight in the lower body. I'll admit, also, that my opinion is shaped a bit by Mike Mayock's evaluation of McFadden "going dead" in the legs on contact and his video examples of such. A year with Juraszek (sp?) could make him a powerhouse down below. Hopefully it wouldn't affect his greatest asset (speed).

And judging by the past 10 years of picks at the 22 and 28 spots, what's the reward in those two positions? I don't think I ever advocated giving Barber in a trade... so you're preaching to the choir there. And as for any other pick other than the first rounders... I wouldn't throw in a second. I would consider a third, I'd definitely do a 4th. If you told me I could give up Marcus Spears, Bobby Carpenter and Skyler Green for McFadden, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
When you put it that way, I couldn't come up with a valid argument if I wanted to. But, we don't know that the players that we would pick this season would flame out like the aforementioned. You effectively point out the risk of your view of the scenario, though. I certainly have to hand it to you there.

That's just a matter of opinion. And it's impossible to know.
That's true. And, admittedly maybe a a more reliable rushing compliment to Barber may have made a difference in that game also. As you said, we'll never know.

It's just a matter of preference, and I realize people are going to differ. But my ideal scenarios either way go something like this.

No trades
22 - Malcolm Kelly
28 - McKelvin, Cromartie or Jones
2nd round - If we go with Jones, then hope that Flowers or Cason fall this far, or if we go with CB at 28, hope that Rice falls this far.

Trades
McFadden for our firsts and a 4th (he would probably have to fall to pick 4-7 or so)
Roy Williams (maybe Fitzgerald) for our 2nd
In the 3rd take a CB who can step in and play Nickel right away, a Dejuan Tribble or Chevis Jackson.

If we're talking ideal scenarios, I think the second is better. Not to mention you have a lot more control with the trades. You can basically guarantee getting Williams and McFadden and you're at the mercy of other teams drafting on the 3rd rounder.
I'll be 100% honest and tell you that either of those scenarios wouldn't compel me to jump off the roof. The only thing that has me leery of the 2nd scenario is the impact that it would have on our cap situation and whether or not it would hamper our ability to re-sign Newman or Ware (or both) a year down the road. Williams won't come cheap and he won't be traded here without a long-term contract in place (at least if the Cowboys are smart). McFadden's contract will also be astronomical.

In the stand pat scenario, you're hoping everything falls exactly how you want it for three straight picks.
And therein lies the HUGE gamble in my scenario. However, it helps that there's a good chance that multiple players will be available at CB and RB where we pick in round 1 (CB) and round 2 (RB). WR is definitely a gamble. Every mock I have seen has WRs going all over the place. That's the toughest one to gauge at this point.

I agree if you don't think he's worth it. I just happen to think he is.
That's the killer, for me. Like I said before I would be SOOO disappointed if this kid came into the league and became the type of player that you WOULD do a Herchel Walker type deal for and we're standing there with our proverbial ***** in the wind. I stated in another post that I watched more McFadden this year after the hype of the Cleveland trade last year. I was hoping to get geeked up about the guy and our "new toy". Honestly, man, I just didn't see it. I ended up being more impressed with Felix Jones. I'll be the first to admit that Jones' effectiveness can be directly related to having McFadden take some of the beating, but Jones just seemed to be the better RB. Maybe not the better athlete, but to me the better RB. At this point, it makes more sense to take Jones and address other needs without mortgaging the cap and the bulk of the talent and the higher end of the draft pool. Then again, if I were an expert at this type of thing I probably wouldn't be sharing my wealth of knowledge on a message board, either. Either way, I want what ALL of us want. A Super Bowl Champ. Unfortunately, at this point, I have no idea what it's going to take to get us there.
 

EPL0c0

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theogt;1958775 said:
Here are the #8 picks over that time:

Jamaal Anderson
Donte Whitner
Antrel Rolle
DeAngelo Hall
Jordan Gross
Roy Williams
David Terrell
Plaxico Burress
David Boston
Greg Ellis

Not particularly exciting. The only consistent pro-bowler is the one most of our fans want to get rid of.
Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis? I don't wanna get rid of Greg Ellis...

hehe...sorry, a little fun on a boring football-less Sunday
 

peplaw06

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theogt;1959092 said:
Pass defense and pass offense for their respective sides of the ball (in terms of QB rating) have the highest correlation with winning percentage. They both have a very high correlation coefficient (.500+). Rushing YPA, offensively and defensively, has the lowest correlation coefficient (sub .100, IIRC). Sacks also have higher correlation with winning.

So, yes, I think a #3 corner or a #2 WR would be much more valuable than a RB splitting carries. And those are available for better values at #22 and #28.
If you want to talk about specific positions, you're stats are far too general.

Plus we had a high winning percentage last year. If our biggest holes are the #3 CB and #2 WR, then it would seem your stats didn't exactly bear out last season.
 

theogt

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peplaw06;1959130 said:
If you want to talk about specific positions, you're stats are far too general.
I disagree.

Plus we had a high winning percentage last year. If our biggest holes are the #3 CB and #2 WR, then it would seem your stats didn't exactly bear out last season.
The biggest reasons we weren't in the NFCCG were the failures of our #2 receiver and #3 CB.
 

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theogt;1959134 said:
I disagree.

The biggest reasons we weren't in the NFCCG were the failures of our #2 receiver and #3 CB.

Or the show...
 

khiladi

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theogt;1959134 said:
I disagree.

The biggest reasons we weren't in the NFCCG were the failures of our #2 receiver and #3 CB.

Or our offensive line... Miles Austin had a sure TD if his OL could just give him 1.2 seconds to actually throw the ball...
 

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peplaw06;1958763 said:
I'm getting a little tired of hearing all this talk about trading up, and I know most people are. But at the same time it's the offseason, what else are we going to discuss? With that in mind, another thing I'm getting tired of is all this fear about making the splash move during the draft.

I'm not speaking only about McFadden (this is an annual discussion), but that's the obvious example of the splash move this year. Everyone thinks the safe play is to stand pat at 22 and 28, rather than move up, because McFadden could be a bust. Well, yeah he could be a bust, but so could the guys we draft at 22 and 28.

Ask yourself right now whether you'd trade a Terence Newman or a DeMarcus Ware for Marcus Spears and Bobby Carpenter?

Here are the guys drafted at 22 and 28 over the last 10 years.

2007 - Brady Quinn (QB) and Joe Staley (OL)
2006 - Manny Lawson (LB) and Marcedes Lewis (TE)
2005 - Mark Clayton (WR) and Luis Castillo (DL)
2004 - JP Losman (QB) and Chris Gamble (DB)
2003 - Rex Grossman (QB) and Andre Woolfolk (DB)
2002 - Bryan Thomas (DL) and Jeremy Stevens (TE)
2001 - Will Allen (DB) and Derrick Gibson (DB)
2000 - Chris McIntosh (OL) and Rob Morris (LB)
1999 - Lamar King (DL) and Andy Katzenmoyer (LB)
1998 - Tebucky Jones (DB) and RW McQuarters (DB)

Now I'm not advocating that we give up the farm to move up. But if the price is right... i.e. if we could get away with the two firsts (hell I'd throw in a 3rd-4th), I think the chances of hitting are better up in the Top 5-10.

I don't think you can be afraid of moving up.

The draft is a crapshoot to be honest. Look at how many bust are in the top 10 and you soon realize that the entire first round is full of busts, doesnt matter if you are picking early of late really.
 

peplaw06

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Beast_from_East;1959185 said:
The draft is a crapshoot to be honest. Look at how many bust are in the top 10 and you soon realize that the entire first round is full of busts, doesnt matter if you are picking early of late really.

My point is the draft is a crapshoot. On that much we agree.

But I think your odds of finding busts go up as you move further down the first round.
 

theogt

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peplaw06;1959195 said:
My point is the draft is a crapshoot. On that much we agree.

But I think your odds of finding busts go up as you move further down the first round.
It seems to me that when you follow this line of thinking through, you just end up doing a statistical analysis of value and end up coming up with something similar to the draft value chart that's already available.
 

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peplaw06;1959195 said:
My point is the draft is a crapshoot. On that much we agree.

But I think your odds of finding busts go up as you move further down the first round.

Agreed.

I guess it boils down to this:

If #22 and #28 turn out to be Carp and Spears and McFadden turns out to be the next Peterson, we will be second guessing our decision to stay pat for a long time.

If #22 and #28 turn out to be Witten and Ware and McFadden turns out to be Reggie Bush with Reggie Bush contract, then we are screwed.

Peterson went #7 last year, do you think the first 6 teams are not kicking themselves right now?
 

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Beast_from_East;1959216 said:
Agreed.

I guess it boils down to this:

If #22 and #28 turn out to be Carp and Spears and McFadden turns out to be the next Peterson, we will be second guessing our decision to stay pat for a long time.

If #22 and #28 turn out to be Witten and Ware and McFadden turns out to be Reggie Bush with Reggie Bush contract, then we are screwed.

Peterson went #7 last year, do you think the first 6 teams are not kicking themselves right now?

I'm kinda leaning to this guy being another Reggie Bush..
 
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