Can't wait to see Jaylon Smith on the field

[waldoputty]

Doc I know this has been talked about to death, but with the recent news that he's able to lift his foot and toes im just wondering what exactly are the major events he has left in terms of him getting back to normal functionality? I'm getting my PhD in tropical medicine, so if you could point me in the direction of any papers that discuss the specifics of the final stages of this type of recovery id very much be interested in learning more about it.

My best guess would be that the axons are now structurally sound and the action potentials are delivering 100% capacity or close to it, is the main issue now localized at the neuromuscular junction?

I'm from a virology background so I'm somewhat familiar with the nervous system, although obviously no expert of the clinical side

Thanks

My understanding is that if the structure of the peroneal nerve is repaired and structurally sound, it's not a question of IF he will regain 100% functionality but more a question of WHEN. Axon repair was the main unknown at the time of his injury, correct?

in case doc does not see this, he has said before that 100% nerve function is not required for 100% functional recovery. i have family members who researched nerve recovery and they said the same thing.

 

[speedkilz88]

Isn't there one tomorrow May 5-7 and he's participating?

Spags said they moved it to next week.

 

[tyke1doe]

Haha yeah I'm no MD, although there are certainly MDs in my program. I'm scrictly researcher/scientist track. There's not many programs of the sort within the US , I wound up at Tulane by way of NYC.

We're more infectious disease orientated, specifically those that emerge from tropical regions like Africa and South America. TB, Zika, Dengue, Yellow Fever, Ebola, HIV, etc. My interest is of the zoonotic type, those that jump from animal to human. Spillover was a great documentary put out on the topic a few years ago from PBS I believe, well worth the hour of your time if you're interested in the topic and last I checked it's still up on YouTube.

It definitely strikes up some interesting conversion when I mention it in passing. I've had people assume a wide range of what it really is, from CDC researcher to medical marijuana grower hahaha

Thanks for explaining. I had the same question myself.

 

[tyke1doe]

in case doc does not see this, he has said before that 100% nerve function is not required for 100% functional recovery. i have family members who researched nerve recovery and they said the same thing.

I recall him saying it too.

 

[newera]

I love the potential in Jaylon.

I just really hope he's able to be half as special as a lot of members here claim he could have/will be.

If I just read this board, I'd be expecting to see the next coming of Lawrence Taylor/Jack Lambert!

Here's to hoping though!

I am concerned that the year long wait/hype has possibly set expectations too high (absence makes the heart grow fonder). His athleticism and overall talent are obvious but there are parts of his game, not including anything injury related, that have me slightly concerned about playing him at mike linebacker.

First and foremost, he does not shed blocks well. Once a blocker gets their hands on him (even tight ends), he usually stays blocked until the ballcarrier is past him. Something that compounds this problem is that he has a tendency to sit back and read instead of attacking off of the snap. This allows time for blockers to get to him and you see him catching blocks rather than attacking, stacking, and shedding. What is interesting is that when he fires off of the ball at the snap, such as when he blitzes, he shows the ability to attack blockers and make the play at or behind the line of scrimmage (the center from USC can testify to this). When he is kept clean, he chases ballcarriers down and generally makes the tackle.

This brings me to my next point. From the games I watched, I didn't see a linebacker who squares up and explodes through ball carriers when he hits most of the time. He is more of a drag down tackler. Don't get me wrong, he usually gets the guy down when he gets there, but it's not generally the type of bone-jarring hit that stops a runner dead in his tracks (outside of the Texas game where made a few of these types of tackles). I don't think of this as a weakness necessarily, just something that I could see fans complaining about.

Finally, for all of the talent he possesses, he didn't really create many turnovers in college. In his three years at Notre Dame, he had 1 interception, forced 3 fumbles (one per year), and recovered 3 fumbles. I bring this up because the organization placed an emphasis on guys that make plays on the ball this offseason. He did have 10 passes defensed in his career though. This is an area that he may improve on, but it is something to consider.

Overall, I believe Dallas is getting a potentially great linebacker and I'm excited to see him play, but he has some things that he needs to work on (as most do) if he is to reach a level that matches the hype of many Cowboys fans. I have no doubts that teams will have a hard time running outside against he and Lee, but I worry about what might happen if teams try to run right at him up the middle. I believe that he will be very good in coverage right off of the bat (he seems to have excellent zone awareness in particular) and will be a real threat as a blitzer both up the middle and off of the edge. I just caution everyone to give him time to get back into the flow of the game and the time to work on/correct the potential flaws in his game that were present even before the injury.

 

[Doc50]

Doc I know this has been talked about to death, but with the recent news that he's able to lift his foot and toes im just wondering what exactly are the major events he has left in terms of him getting back to normal functionality? I'm getting my PhD in tropical medicine, so if you could point me in the direction of any papers that discuss the specifics of the final stages of this type of recovery id very much be interested in learning more about it.

My best guess would be that the axons are now structurally sound and the action potentials are delivering 100% capacity or close to it, is the main issue now localized at the neuromuscular junction?

I'm from a virology background so I'm somewhat familiar with the nervous system, although obviously no expert of the clinical side

Thanks

My understanding is that if the structure of the peroneal nerve is repaired and structurally sound, it's not a question of IF he will regain 100% functionality but more a question of WHEN. Axon repair was the main unknown at the time of his injury, correct?

Ok.......done with AM patients. Had 2 consecutive with acute vestibulitis, puking their guts out and room spinning. Feels just like a bad drunk.

It's always possibly that the stretched nerve sheath has some microscopic damage somewhere along its path, thereby causing a slightly muted or incomplete innervation distally. Some lay people have misinterpreted the process as the nerve "growing" all the way to the toes, and expecting complete function for the entirety of that distance. It's more of a process of internal nerve repair, whose progress has been very encouraging.

Your premise is mostly correct. Cellular function of the large peroneal nerve has been almost completely restored by now, as evidenced by the the ability to dorsiflex the foot and extend the toes. As each individual microscopic branch of the nerve begins processing signals, it is awakening and begins approaching full function. The innervation of the muscle provide movement, and repetition under resistance provides strength.

He may start OTA's with a brace, but I doubt that he needs it by opening day.

I think we're going to be impressed with the strength he has in the important musculature of the foreleg, and the knee is not even a consideration at this point given the time and aggressive rehab since his surgery.

 

[waldoputty]

I am concerned that the year long wait/hype has possibly set expectations too high (absence makes the heart grow fonder). His athleticism and overall talent are obvious but there are parts of his game, not including anything injury related, that have me slightly concerned about playing him at mike linebacker.

First and foremost, he does not shed blocks well. Once a blocker gets their hands on him (even tight ends), he usually stays blocked until the ballcarrier is past him. Something that compounds this problem is that he has a tendency to sit back and read instead of attacking off of the snap. This allows time for blockers to get to him and you see him catching blocks rather than attacking, stacking, and shedding. What is interesting is that when he fires off of the ball at the snap, such as when he blitzes, he shows the ability to attack blockers and make the play at or behind the line of scrimmage (the center from USC can testify to this). When he is kept clean, he chases ballcarriers down and generally makes the tackle.

This brings me to my next point. From the games I watched, I didn't see a linebacker who squares up and explodes through ball carriers when he hits most of the time. He is more of a drag down tackler. Don't get me wrong, he usually gets the guy down when he gets there, but it's not generally the type of bone-jarring hit that stops a runner dead in his tracks (outside of the Texas game where made a few of these types of tackles). I don't think of this as a weakness necessarily, just something that I could see fans complaining about.

Finally, for all of the talent he possesses, he didn't really create many turnovers in college. In his three years at Notre Dame, he had 1 interception, forced 3 fumbles (one per year), and recovered 3 fumbles. I bring this up because the organization placed an emphasis on guys that make plays on the ball this offseason. He did have 10 passes defensed in his career though. This is an area that he may improve on, but it is something to consider.

Overall, I believe Dallas is getting a potentially great linebacker and I'm excited to see him play, but he has some things that he needs to work on (as most do) if he is to reach a level that matches the hype of many Cowboys fans. I have no doubts that teams will have a hard time running outside against he and Lee, but I worry about what might happen if teams try to run right at him up the middle. I believe that he will be very good in coverage right off of the bat (he seems to have excellent zone awareness in particular) and will be a real threat as a blitzer both up the middle and off of the edge. I just caution everyone to give him time to get back into the flow of the game and the time to work on/correct the potential flaws in his game that were present even before the injury.

this man needs to be burnt at the stake and have all his likes stripped

 

[newera]

this man needs to be burnt at the stake and have all his likes stripped

Oh come on, its taken me a long time to accrue the small amount I've gotten. Given my rate of posts, I may never reach this level again haha. But seriously, I'm not anyone who thinks of myself as even a novice when it comes to this kind of stuff. I welcome conversation about these views, I just wanted to set a level of expectation for myself, and then felt like I should share my observations. I know that there will undoubtedly be people on both extreme ends of the spectrum judging him as soon as he sets foot on the field, but I hope to reach those in the middle that are willing to take time before making a determination of what he is and will be.

 

[Ranching]

Tropical Medicine...sounds like exotic drink mixes to keep people very happy....

I'll buy the first round. Salud!

 

[Ranching]

Did someone say, "tropical medicine?"

Here! Here!

Edit: damn, wrong thread..

is that Gregory in the background?

 

[waldoputty]

Oh come on, its taken me a long time to accrue the small amount I've gotten. Given my rate of posts, I may never reach this level again haha. But seriously, I'm not anyone who thinks of myself as even a novice when it comes to this kind of stuff. I welcome conversation about these views, I just wanted to set a level of expectation for myself, and then felt like I should share my observations. I know that there will undoubtedly be people on both extreme ends of the spectrum judging him as soon as he sets foot on the field, but I hope to reach those in the middle that are willing to take time before making a determination of what he is and will be.

lol, it is good to have people who are open minded.

 

[TheFinisher]

Ok.......done with AM patients. Had 2 consecutive with acute vestibulitis, puking their guts out and room spinning. Feels just like a bad drunk.

It's always possibly that the stretched nerve sheath has some microscopic damage somewhere along its path, thereby causing a slightly muted or incomplete innervation distally. Some lay people have misinterpreted the process as the nerve "growing" all the way to the toes, and expecting complete function for the entirety of that distance. It's more of a process of internal nerve repair, whose progress has been very encouraging.

Your premise is mostly correct. Cellular function of the large peroneal nerve has been almost completely restored by now, as evidenced by the the ability to dorsiflex the foot and extend the toes. As each individual microscopic branch of the nerve begins processing signals, it is awakening and begins approaching full function. The innervation of the muscle provide movement, and repetition under resistance provides strength.

He may start OTA's with a brace, but I doubt that he needs it by opening day.

I think we're going to be impressed with the strength he has in the important musculature of the foreleg, and the knee is not even a consideration at this point given the time and aggressive rehab since his surgery.

Thanks doc,

Really appreciate it, and correct me if I'm wrong but based on your above post I believe the summary below is on the right track of what we were dealing with,

"If the extent of nerve injury is severe enough to disrupt its axonal contents, a series of physiologic changes known as Wallerian degeneration follow to ensure removal and reformation of the nerve's damaged portion. The distal, degenerating portion of the axon undergoes stereotyped morphological changes and is subsequently digested by Schwann cells to pave the way for regenerating axons from the proximal portion.

Demyelinating neuropathy characteristically shows a reduction in conduction velocity and prolongation of distal and F-wave latencies, whereas axonal neuropathy shows a reduction in amplitude."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4329247/

I highlighted the bold because Im also guessing when Jerry was revealing the positive increases (believe he said 5x increase of what they were seeing compared to tests they ran a few weeks prior) that they were directly or indirectly measuring increases in amplitude at the innervation site. Now I'm not sure the method they're using for these tests, but I'm assuming it's quantitatively describing the increase of electrical innervation at the NMJ or muscle fibers. Which is fantastic news.

There seems to be much confusion and misinformation within the media reporting this story. I'm hoping the fans who take the time to understand the injury realize much of the "doom and gloom" of his recovery outlook that has been tossed around is mostly based on inaccuracies. His recovery appears to be going as well, if not better, than the original optimistic prognosis.

I've been mostly bothered by the concrete assumption that he will need the AFO for the upcoming season. Based on what I understand, and the progress he's made, I absolutely agree with you that it's looking more likely than not that we won't be needing it.

 

[Doc50]

Thanks doc,

Really appreciate it, and correct me if I'm wrong but based on your above post I believe the summary below is on the right track of what we were dealing with,

"If the extent of nerve injury is severe enough to disrupt its axonal contents, a series of physiologic changes known as Wallerian degeneration follow to ensure removal and reformation of the nerve's damaged portion. The distal, degenerating portion of the axon undergoes stereotyped morphological changes and is subsequently digested by Schwann cells to pave the way for regenerating axons from the proximal portion.

Demyelinating neuropathy characteristically shows a reduction in conduction velocity and prolongation of distal and F-wave latencies, whereas axonal neuropathy shows a reduction in amplitude."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4329247/

I highlighted the bold because Im also guessing when Jerry was revealing the positive increases (believe he said 5x increase of what they were seeing compared to tests they ran a few weeks prior) that they were directly or indirectly measuring increases in amplitude at the innervation site. Now I'm not sure the method they're using for these tests, but I'm assuming it's quantitatively describing the increase of electrical innervation at the NMJ or muscle fibers. Which is fantastic news.

There seems to be much confusion and misinformation within the media reporting this story. I'm hoping the fans who take the time to understand the injury realize much of the "doom and gloom" of his recovery outlook that has been tossed around is mostly based on inaccuracies. His recovery appears to be going as well, if not better, than the original optimistic prognosis.

Correct.

The Wallerian degeneration and transformation is dependent on fully functional schwann cells, and that is difficult to independently assess. Therefore, some uncertainty always exists until the healing process has nicely progressed.

The misinformation has mostly just been from a misinterpretation of data, in most cases simply a lack of understanding of what's being said and written. Essentially no professional has changed his or her opinion on the diagnosis or prognosis of this case from day 1.

Patience is a virtue.

 

[Doc50]

I am concerned that the year long wait/hype has possibly set expectations too high (absence makes the heart grow fonder). His athleticism and overall talent are obvious but there are parts of his game, not including anything injury related, that have me slightly concerned about playing him at mike linebacker.

First and foremost, he does not shed blocks well. Once a blocker gets their hands on him (even tight ends), he usually stays blocked until the ballcarrier is past him. Something that compounds this problem is that he has a tendency to sit back and read instead of attacking off of the snap. This allows time for blockers to get to him and you see him catching blocks rather than attacking, stacking, and shedding. What is interesting is that when he fires off of the ball at the snap, such as when he blitzes, he shows the ability to attack blockers and make the play at or behind the line of scrimmage (the center from USC can testify to this). When he is kept clean, he chases ballcarriers down and generally makes the tackle.

This brings me to my next point. From the games I watched, I didn't see a linebacker who squares up and explodes through ball carriers when he hits most of the time. He is more of a drag down tackler. Don't get me wrong, he usually gets the guy down when he gets there, but it's not generally the type of bone-jarring hit that stops a runner dead in his tracks (outside of the Texas game where made a few of these types of tackles). I don't think of this as a weakness necessarily, just something that I could see fans complaining about.

Finally, for all of the talent he possesses, he didn't really create many turnovers in college. In his three years at Notre Dame, he had 1 interception, forced 3 fumbles (one per year), and recovered 3 fumbles. I bring this up because the organization placed an emphasis on guys that make plays on the ball this offseason. He did have 10 passes defensed in his career though. This is an area that he may improve on, but it is something to consider.

Overall, I believe Dallas is getting a potentially great linebacker and I'm excited to see him play, but he has some things that he needs to work on (as most do) if he is to reach a level that matches the hype of many Cowboys fans. I have no doubts that teams will have a hard time running outside against he and Lee, but I worry about what might happen if teams try to run right at him up the middle. I believe that he will be very good in coverage right off of the bat (he seems to have excellent zone awareness in particular) and will be a real threat as a blitzer both up the middle and off of the edge. I just caution everyone to give him time to get back into the flow of the game and the time to work on/correct the potential flaws in his game that were present even before the injury.

One of our previous threads on Jalen was a poll on his expected level of play this year (where is that?)

I think most were fairly conservative in their rookie year estimations.

 

[waldoputty]

One of our previous threads on Jalen was a poll on his expected level of play this year (where is that?)

I think most were fairly conservative in their rookie year estimations.

were the 5x increase for ekg measurement - but we dont know the starting point?

here you go doc:

1 Injured/cut - bodi, pjthedoors, rkell87, marionbarberthe4th, section444, baz
1.5 - tm119
2 Backup - starboyz83
2.5 - chrisinarizona,
3 Starter - cowboyblue22, rockdoc, theherd
3.25 - theranchsucks, ghst187
3.5 - joshjwp, cowboysyankslakers, mcompact, ghostofpelleur, hardhittin'witten, tyle1doe, michaelwinicki
3.75 - ka0ik
4 - Marginal Probowl - wavingmonkey, gmoney112, iamliko22, waldoputty, howboutdemcowboys31, shaketiller, eric_h, mahoney_bill, beast_from_east
4.5 -sdcowboy85, daillest88, davida
5 Solid Probowl - bigdogcowboy, rat2k8, bluestar
6 Generational - rgv_clos, scotman, gameover, xwalker (made joke?), phildadon86, dallasdw00ds0n

statistically, the bell curve is still centered around 3.75 (3.5 and 4 are tied with 7 and 9 votes respectively), though there are good-sized peaks on both extremes of the bell curve which is highly unusual statistically...
curve has also 2 large peaks at the 2 extremes due to fans' excitement (6 votes for generational player) and the slow decay on the other end due to continuing disbelief (6 votes for injury/cut)...

unclear answers from: t-ro, stilltheguru88, mrtxstar, ccboy, maverick84, ksadler1, viman96, reddyuta, cowboys22, haleyrules, jerryrage

 

[tm1119]

Nice video and all but that skill set doesn't exactly translate to our defense aside from the 3 or 4 blitz calls Rod might make a game (assuming he's our starting MIKE of course).

I'm much more worried about his ability to stop the run in the middle and cover TE's/RB's. Not saying Jaylon can't do those things, just pointing out that this is a weird video to get excited about considering he was essentially playing a different position than we would in our D

 

[newera]

One of our previous threads on Jalen was a poll on his expected level of play this year (where is that?)
I think most were fairly conservative in their rookie year estimations.

I certainly hope that the reactions come camp and the regular season reflect that trend. As I said, I think he will, if healthy, provide an upgrade in coverage and overall athleticism on the defense. I just hope that people realize that even at 100% he wasn't a perfect prospect. There were parts of his game that needed work, and I just would like to see him given time to improve on those things before throwing out the "bust", or "wasted draft pick" labels.

 

[waldoputty]

I certainly hope that the reactions come camp and the regular season reflect that trend. As I said, I think he will, if healthy, provide an upgrade in coverage and overall athleticism on the defense. I just hope that people realize that even at 100% he wasn't a perfect prospect. There were parts of his game that needed work, and I just would like to see him given time to improve on those things before throwing out the "bust", or "wasted draft pick" labels.

lol negative stars coming after stripped of stars

 

[newera]

were the 5x increase for ekg measurement - but we dont know the starting point?

here you go doc:

1 Injured/cut - bodi, pjthedoors, rkell87, marionbarberthe4th, section444, baz
1.5 - tm119
2 Backup - starboyz83
2.5 - chrisinarizona,
3 Starter - cowboyblue22, rockdoc, theherd
3.25 - theranchsucks, ghst187
3.5 - joshjwp, cowboysyankslakers, mcompact, ghostofpelleur, hardhittin'witten, tyle1doe, michaelwinicki
3.75 - ka0ik
4 - Marginal Probowl - wavingmonkey, gmoney112, iamliko22, waldoputty, howboutdemcowboys31, shaketiller, eric_h, mahoney_bill, beast_from_east
4.5 -sdcowboy85, daillest88, davida
5 Solid Probowl - bigdogcowboy, rat2k8, bluestar
6 Generational - rgv_clos, scotman, gameover, xwalker (made joke?), phildadon86, dallasdw00ds0n

statistically, the bell curve is still centered around 3.75 (3.5 and 4 are tied with 7 and 9 votes respectively), though there are good-sized peaks on both extremes of the bell curve which is highly unusual statistically...
curve has also 2 large peaks at the 2 extremes due to fans' excitement (6 votes for generational player) and the slow decay on the other end due to continuing disbelief (6 votes for injury/cut)...

unclear answers from: t-ro, stilltheguru88, mrtxstar, ccboy, maverick84, ksadler1, viman96, reddyuta, cowboys22, haleyrules, jerryrage

I would say it seems fairly reasonable to hope for Jaylon to be a decent starter so those results are encouraging. Now it just remains to be seen if his play style matches up to what people are envisioning. It's possible for him to be a decent starter but not be what people thought he would be, if that makes sense.

 

[diefree666]

I would say it seems fairly reasonable to hope for Jaylon to be a decent starter so those results are encouraging. Now it just remains to be seen if his play style matches up to what people are envisioning. It's possible for him to be a decent starter but not be what people thought he would be, if that makes sense.

considering the fire and determination of Jaylon Smith= you seem to completely discount that.