Chance Warmack, Jonathan Cooper and Travis Frederick

[darthseinfeld]

I think these three players really should teach ppl to have patience for draft picks and let them touch the field before calling them busts or all pros. Leading up to the draft so many posters on both this website and the ranch were calling Cooper and Warmack "can't miss" products and declaring Jerry a fool if he didn't trade up and grab one of these future hall of famers. Instead we trade DOWN and pickup some lowly slow noname center from Wisconsin Frederick. Jerry and Garrett were lambasted destroyed dragged through the mud how stupid could they be reaching for this scrub and letting the two great guards get swiped from under their noses?!?! Stupid stupid front office.

Fast forward 4 years and Fredrick is a 3 time all pro center meanwhile the other two are both on different teams than they were drafted by (all 3 are in the NFC east now coincidentally). I think we as posters fall in love with players and think we know how to assemble a superbowl winning roster every year but come on guys let's be real these guys do get paid to be scouts for a reason. I bring this up to say that I know the FO knows a hell of a lot more than me and I believe in our draft picks and trust they will be home runs like we have been hitting recently. GO COWBOYS!!!

Warmack for my expirence is a great example of why to not listen to one opinion, but the whole range of opinions on a player. I was on a another forum at the time and Warmack had built up as the next Larry Allen. There was one highly respected poster that looked at some film, and started saying that not only did he have a high bust potential, but he isnt near the tier others have him in. Pointed out how lazy he played at times and how inconsistent his footwork was. Nobody listened, because they had it in there head that he was this transcendent OG prospect

 

[KingintheNorth]

McClay (and every other FO person) would have kicked their sister to draft Cooper and Warmack over Frederick that year.

Everyone was wrong, including us.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Warmack was highly touted by some but only as an OG and not as an OT he was seen more of a run blocker IIRC and not Pass blocking guy.

Cooper coming out raised a great deal up the draft board due to his athletic skill and mobility for such a big man. Injuries seem to have robbed him of that whether robbing him physically, mentally or both.

The beard was seen as the best OC in the draft but many did not have him as a first rounder.

Also the problem with so many people during the draft with Dallas taking him was not really the idea of taking him where they did...it was how it all went down with the scouts having the DT Shariff Floyd as a top 5-10 player on the board and then the DC Rod coming in and saying, at the time of the draft, that he was not the type of DT he wanted. So it through the whole draft war room into a tizzy. Where Jerry and Stephen were actually trying to calm one of the Draft guys, Tom C. IIRC, down because he was so angry. Jason was sitting there with a disgusted but not saying anything.

We really got lucky that a few things happened. One...that Rod said Floyd was not his kind of DT that he wanted for his defense. That after the trade down Travis was still there. He was the last olinemen they wanted and had a 1st round grade on. People sometimes forget that there was a big run on offensive line players and the cowboys wanted one and they gambled that if they traded down they could still get one...The mind blowing part is that Frederick was the 9th Olinemen taken in that first round...9th. And frankly one would say the best one or at least just as good as any other one taken in the first round of that draft. Heck even the first two players in that draft were olinemen.

 

[jrumann59]

Warmack was highly touted by some but only as an OG and not as an OT he was seen more of a run blocker IIRC and not Pass blocking guy.

Cooper coming out raised a great deal up the draft board due to his athletic skill and mobility for such a big man. Injuries seem to have robbed him of that whether robbing him physically, mentally or both.

The beard was seen as the best OC in the draft but many did not have him as a first rounder.

Also the problem with so many people during the draft with Dallas taking him was not really the idea of taking him where they did...it was how it all went down with the scouts having the DT Shariff Floyd as a top 5-10 player on the board and then the DC Rod coming in and saying, at the time of the draft, that he was not the type of DT he wanted. So it through the whole draft war room into a tizzy. Where Jerry and Stephen were actually trying to calm one of the Draft guys, Tom C. IIRC, down because he was so angry. Jason was sitting there with a disgusted but not saying anything.

We really got lucky that a few things happened. One...that Rod said Floyd was not his kind of DT that he wanted for his defense. That after the trade down Travis was still there. He was the last olinemen they wanted and had a 1st round grade on. People sometimes forget that there was a big run on offensive line players and the cowboys wanted one and they gambled that if they traded down they could still get one...The mind blowing part is that Frederick was the 9th Olinemen taken in that first round...9th. And frankly one would say the best one or at least just as good as any other one taken in the first round of that draft. Heck even the first two players in that draft were olinemen.

Man can you imagine the teeth gnashing if we drafted floyd. Who IMHO is a bust.

 

[haleyrules]

People can say what they want about Frederick and his draft position....but he has sure worked out well for the Cowboys!!

 

[Stash]

Warmack was highly touted by some but only as an OG and not as an OT he was seen more of a run blocker IIRC and not Pass blocking guy.

Cooper coming out raised a great deal up the draft board due to his athletic skill and mobility for such a big man. Injuries seem to have robbed him of that whether robbing him physically, mentally or both.

The beard was seen as the best OC in the draft but many did not have him as a first rounder.

Also the problem with so many people during the draft with Dallas taking him was not really the idea of taking him where they did...it was how it all went down with the scouts having the DT Shariff Floyd as a top 5-10 player on the board and then the DC Rod coming in and saying, at the time of the draft, that he was not the type of DT he wanted. So it through the whole draft war room into a tizzy. Where Jerry and Stephen were actually trying to calm one of the Draft guys, Tom C. IIRC, down because he was so angry. Jason was sitting there with a disgusted but not saying anything.

We really got lucky that a few things happened. One...that Rod said Floyd was not his kind of DT that he wanted for his defense. That after the trade down Travis was still there. He was the last olinemen they wanted and had a 1st round grade on. People sometimes forget that there was a big run on offensive line players and the cowboys wanted one and they gambled that if they traded down they could still get one...The mind blowing part is that Frederick was the 9th Olinemen taken in that first round...9th. And frankly one would say the best one or at least just as good as any other one taken in the first round of that draft. Heck even the first two players in that draft were olinemen.

I think that's a really fair and accurate summary of what happened. While the organization certainly deserves credit for what they did, the fact that Warmack and Cooper were drafted ahead of them helped to determine what they did. If either of those guys was still on the board, the Cowboys would have drafted them. I know they've said as much on Cooper, that's on record.

Sometimes, it's the moves you don't make.

 

[Montanalo]

Warmack was highly touted by some but only as an OG and not as an OT he was seen more of a run blocker IIRC and not Pass blocking guy.

Cooper coming out raised a great deal up the draft board due to his athletic skill and mobility for such a big man. Injuries seem to have robbed him of that whether robbing him physically, mentally or both.

The beard was seen as the best OC in the draft but many did not have him as a first rounder.

Also the problem with so many people during the draft with Dallas taking him was not really the idea of taking him where they did...it was how it all went down with the scouts having the DT Shariff Floyd as a top 5-10 player on the board and then the DC Rod coming in and saying, at the time of the draft, that he was not the type of DT he wanted. So it through the whole draft war room into a tizzy. Where Jerry and Stephen were actually trying to calm one of the Draft guys, Tom C. IIRC, down because he was so angry. Jason was sitting there with a disgusted but not saying anything.

We really got lucky that a few things happened. One...that Rod said Floyd was not his kind of DT that he wanted for his defense. That after the trade down Travis was still there. He was the last olinemen they wanted and had a 1st round grade on. People sometimes forget that there was a big run on offensive line players and the cowboys wanted one and they gambled that if they traded down they could still get one...The mind blowing part is that Frederick was the 9th Olinemen taken in that first round...9th. And frankly one would say the best one or at least just as good as any other one taken in the first round of that draft. Heck even the first two players in that draft were olinemen.

Great summary! My recollection of the draft conversation at that time was that Frederick was a decent player but probably more of a second or third round prospect. The knock on the Cowboys was draft value and most of the draft experts felt Frederick in the first was poor value. Whether good planning or luck, it is nice to have a draft day success.

 

[xwalker]

I think these three players really should teach ppl to have patience for draft picks and let them touch the field before calling them busts or all pros. Leading up to the draft so many posters on both this website and the ranch were calling Cooper and Warmack "can't miss" products and declaring Jerry a fool if he didn't trade up and grab one of these future hall of famers. Instead we trade DOWN and pickup some lowly slow noname center from Wisconsin Frederick. Jerry and Garrett were lambasted destroyed dragged through the mud how stupid could they be reaching for this scrub and letting the two great guards get swiped from under their noses?!?! Stupid stupid front office.

Fast forward 4 years and Fredrick is a 3 time all pro center meanwhile the other two are both on different teams than they were drafted by (all 3 are in the NFC east now coincidentally). I think we as posters fall in love with players and think we know how to assemble a superbowl winning roster every year but come on guys let's be real these guys do get paid to be scouts for a reason. I bring this up to say that I know the FO knows a hell of a lot more than me and I believe in our draft picks and trust they will be home runs like we have been hitting recently. GO COWBOYS!!!

I was not a big fan of Warmack.

I loved Cooper talent, especially for the zone scheme, but I would never use a top 10 pick on a Guard.

I loved the Frederick pick. I was surprised because I originally thought Callahan would look for super quick and lightweight players but it turned out his Zone scheme scheme was a mix of zone/man and he was not infatuated with lighter weight OL like Alex Gibbs was with his zone scheme. Plus Fred lost weight from his college days and is plenty quick.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I think these three players really should teach ppl to have patience for draft picks and let them touch the field before calling them busts or all pros. Leading up to the draft so many posters on both this website and the ranch were calling Cooper and Warmack "can't miss" products and declaring Jerry a fool if he didn't trade up and grab one of these future hall of famers. Instead we trade DOWN and pickup some lowly slow noname center from Wisconsin Frederick. Jerry and Garrett were lambasted destroyed dragged through the mud how stupid could they be reaching for this scrub and letting the two great guards get swiped from under their noses?!?! Stupid stupid front office.

Fast forward 4 years and Fredrick is a 3 time all pro center meanwhile the other two are both on different teams than they were drafted by (all 3 are in the NFC east now coincidentally). I think we as posters fall in love with players and think we know how to assemble a superbowl winning roster every year but come on guys let's be real these guys do get paid to be scouts for a reason. I bring this up to say that I know the FO knows a hell of a lot more than me and I believe in our draft picks and trust they will be home runs like we have been hitting recently. GO COWBOYS!!!

Patience pays off in the draft. Case in point with Cooper. He was a guy we supposedly wanted and couldn't get because he was drafted so high. And a few years later he's on the team and may not even start.

Same with Manziel (regardless of what doofus Peter King says, it was a joke that either he was oblivious to or reported because of the narrative)....Manziel has been available for years and we do anything to NOT have him on this team.

It's not really about 'talent' and an 'eye for talent' as Manziel pretty much went where most scouts thought he was going to go and Cooper went where we thought he was going to go. It's a lot about the development of talent and the player being able to stay healthy and out of trouble early in his career. If one of those things doesn't happen (poorly developed or injured or gets in trouble) the player's career can easily be lost and never reach anywhere near his potential.

*That* is what makes the draft a bit of a crapshoot. You still need to follow sound drafting strategy, but if you don't have the right coaching in place or a player gets injured or gets in trouble, it's going to be all for not.





YR

 

[Jstopper]

I was not a big fan of Warmack.

I loved Cooper talent, especially for the zone scheme, but I would never use a top 10 pick on a Guard.

I loved the Frederick pick. I was surprised because I originally thought Callahan would look for super quick and lightweight players but it turned out his Zone scheme scheme was a mix of zone/man and he was not infatuated with lighter weight OL like Alex Gibbs was with his zone scheme. Plus Fred lost weight from his college days and is plenty quick.

I remember the countless threads on warmack and Cooper they really had the fan base split in half. And on draft day only myself and a few others defended the Frederick pick.

 

[diefree666]

After the debacle that was Costa I wanted a REAL NFL center and was overjoyed to get Fredrick. I did not care where he was drafted. This VALUE BS is just that.

 

[gimmesix]

That's why I hate drafting for need. You end up missing out on transcendent players in your organization. Frederick already looks like the best center in Cowboys history. Better than Stepnoski, Fitzgerald, Shiver (lol)....

I don't think drafting purely for need is the way to go, but I think the idea of strictly BPA is too restricting.

I like that the Cowboys tier their players because I don't think you can purely rank most of them 1-whatever. There's just not always a discernible difference between Player A and Player B to value one over the other as BPA. The Cowboys had Frederick in a "second-round" tier. There were several players within that tier Dallas could have gone with, but the need for an offensive lineman drove the selection. In fact, Dallas had several linemen kind of lumped together, which motivated the trade down.

So I guess what I'm saying is that don't hate drafting for need if it's not a reach. If you have a player at a position you need on an equal level with one you don't, then you take the player you need.

 

[big dog cowboy]

And on draft day only myself and a few others defended the Frederick pick.

I remember defending the pick. I also remember those who were banging on his 40 time.

 

[erod]

I don't think drafting purely for need is the way to go, but I think the idea of strictly BPA is too restricting.

I like that the Cowboys tier their players because I don't think you can purely rank most of them 1-whatever. There's just not always a discernible difference between Player A and Player B to value one over the other as BPA. The Cowboys had Frederick in a "second-round" tier. There were several players within that tier Dallas could have gone with, but the need for an offensive lineman drove the selection. In fact, Dallas had several linemen kind of lumped together, which motivated the trade down.

So I guess what I'm saying is that don't hate drafting for need if it's not a reach. If you have a player at a position you need on an equal level with one you don't, then you take the player you need.

I'm always for BPA, but sure, there are times when there's a virtual "tie" between two or more players. Then, you go need among those choices.

I just hate reaching for need when superior players are on the board.

 

[gimmesix]

I'm always for BPA, but sure, there are times when there's a virtual "tie" between two or more players. Then, you go need among those choices.

I just hate reaching for need when superior players are on the board.

I think it happens a lot. Take 2016, as an example. According to a leaked board, Elliott was No. 1 on Dallas' board, followed by Ramsey, Tunsil and Bosa. An argument could be made that there is not enough separation between those players for any of them to be considered BPA. Dallas ended up going with Elliott, but a good argument easily could be made for Ramsey being the pick or Bosa if he had made it to our pick. Who wants to nitpick that group?

If Elliott, Ramsey and Bosa had been gone, then Tunsil is the top BPA on this board, but would anyone have wanted him taken over the minor drop in talent that might have existed between him as the third-best player and Wentz as the seventh or him and Floyd as the eighth?

 

[erod]

I think it happens a lot. Take 2016, as an example. According to a leaked board, Elliott was No. 1 on Dallas' board, followed by Ramsey, Tunsil and Bosa. An argument could be made that there is not enough separation between those players for any of them to be considered BPA. Dallas ended up going with Elliott, but a good argument easily could be made for Ramsey being the pick or Bosa if he had made it to our pick. Who wants to nitpick that group?

If Elliott, Ramsey and Bosa had been gone, then Tunsil is the top BPA on this board, but would anyone have wanted him taken over the minor drop in talent that might have existed between him as the third-best player and Wentz as the seventh or him and Floyd as the eighth?

Elliott is making a massively bigger impact on football games than Ramsey or Bosa. I thought it was an easy choice.

 

[gimmesix]

Elliott is making a massively bigger impact on football games than Ramsey or Bosa. I thought it was an easy choice.

OK. How about if we had had a top-flight RB, do you still take Elliott since he was No. 1 on your board?

Another example: In 1989, Tony Mandarich was considered the No. 1 player in the draft, but Dallas went with Troy Aikman. It ended up being a Super Bowl-making decision for the Cowboys. If Dallas had went strictly BPA, then Mandarich was the choice, However because Dallas both needed to find its franchise QB and the gap between the players wasn't much, the choice Dallas made was the right one ... even if the fates of the players had been reverse.

Now, there are other examples when the team clearly reached for a position of need and left a higher-tiered or higher-ranked player on the board. Sometimes that has worked (Floyd vs. Frederick) and sometimes it hasn't (Quincy Carter vs. Shaun Rogers, who I wanted when he slipped to our pick).

 

[erod]

OK. How about if we had had a top-flight RB, do you still take Elliott since he was No. 1 on your board?

Nope, that's when you trade down and rack up picks.

 

[diefree666]

Nope, that's when you trade down and rack up picks.

what if there is no good offer?

 

[erod]

what if there is no good offer?

There's always an offer for a player of that caliber.