Clarence Hill on Twitter: Per PFF, "Only two elite players. All RBs ranked as below average

[superonyx]

completely out of context, the PFF rankings only reflect 2014performance. Seriously, at least know what you're arguing against before you go criticizing it

Let me help you out.....this is what the rankings are based on...

1. The grade given is for now – it’s not a prediction of future development. While it’s primarily based on last year (or their last year of action) it does include more than just a nod to their career. For example, if a corner played well up until 2014 and then stunk, we’ll take account of his better years as well. Further, this is an opinion based series, as a group we have had a series of discussions to weigh up which rating to give each player. No one in PFF believes the overall grades are absolutely definitive and neither should you. For example, how should one weight the relative receiving and blocking skills of a tight end? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Looks like they are taking careers into consideration. Also it's an opinion based series as noted above.
What was it you were saying about not understanding what the ranking are based on?

 

[ftghb]

Since this is only last years performance please explain how Brees, Rapistburger, Brady could be rated above Romo. Romo had a higher QB rating than every one of them. His team had a better W-L and he had a better completion percentage and TD-INT percentage.

Your point is even less valid if this is only based on last year.

at what point, do you stop and think that maybe the supporting cast had something to do with that? Certainly, if his passing volume way wayy below the rest of the other aforementioned qb, does that not lend itself to the argument that they didn't need romo to throw as much in order to win? esp. considering they had an oline that produced an 1800 yard rusher?

I don't know what you're trying to argue here with AP OPY. There are other things that a running back is responsible for that PFF take into account for quality of rb that the OPY voters certainly do not. Pass protection, maximizing yards....i think you'll find many people here who watched games last year say that demarco murray left some big runs on the table. PFF doesn't miss those things and takes them into account when grading a player. Simply put, provided enough opportunities, a player can accrue amazing numbers; that doesn't necessarily speak to quality of play though

 

[ftghb]

Let me help you out.....this is what the rankings are based on...

1. The grade given is for now – it’s not a prediction of future development. While it’s primarily based on last year (or their last year of action) it does include more than just a nod to their career. For example, if a corner played well up until 2014 and then stunk, we’ll take account of his better years as well. Further, this is an opinion based series, as a group we have had a series of discussions to weigh up which rating to give each player. No one in PFF believes the overall grades are absolutely definitive and neither should you. For example, how should one weight the relative receiving and blocking skills of a tight end? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Looks like they are taking careers into consideration. Also it's an opinion based series as noted above.
What was it you were saying about not understanding what the ranking are based on?

Does any of this actually apply to the qbs we are talking about? Roethlisberger, Brees and to a lesser extent romo, have all been regarded as top flight qbs in this league with fairly large sample sizes to draw conclusions on. Did any of those aforementioned qbs happen to stink in prior years? If the rankings are largely based on 2014, barring any major fluctuations from previous years, how does your comment even apply?

Ofc these are opinions, they grade each play on a subjective basis. So are scouting reports and coaches tapes. They do these evaluations on a play by play, game basis.

 

[superonyx]

at what point, do you stop and think that maybe the supporting cast had something to do with that? Certainly, if his passing volume way wayy below the rest of the other aforementioned qb, does that not lend itself to the argument that they didn't need romo to throw as much in order to win? esp. considering they had an oline that produced an 1800 yard rusher?

I don't know what you're trying to argue here with AP OPY. There are other things that a running back is responsible for that PFF take into account for quality of rb that the OPY voters certainly do not. Pass protection, maximizing yards....i think you'll find many people here who watched games last year say that demarco murray left some big runs on the table. PFF doesn't miss those things and takes them into account when grading a player. Simply put, provided enough opportunities, a player can accrue amazing numbers; that doesn't necessarily speak to quality of play though

Provided enough opportunities does not equal 4.7 YPC and 50 receptions like Murray was able to achieve. There wasn't much of a question last season that Murray was the "Elite" back in the league. You don't win AP Offensive Player of the Year, First team all Pro, and MVP candidate and not have had a season that would qualify as elite.

All you need to know if that Drew Brees was rated as Elite over Romo to realize this is just purely an opinion piece that leans heavily on Opinions.

 

[superonyx]

Does any of this actually apply to the qbs we are talking about? Roethlisberger, Brees and to a lesser extent romo, have all been regarded as top flight qbs in this league with fairly large sample sizes to draw conclusions on. Did any of those aforementioned qbs happen to stink in prior years? If the rankings are largely based on 2014, barring any major fluctuations from previous years, how does your comment even apply?

Ofc these are opinions, they grade each play on a subjective basis. So are scouting reports and coaches tapes. They do these evaluations on a play by play, game basis.

The issue isn't about the other QB's as much as it is about Romo. Romo has been an elite QB every season and since they are looking at 2014 as having the most weight then Romo would have elevated himself into the category with these "elite" QB's.

 

[ftghb]

Provided enough opportunities does not equal 4.7 YPC and 50 receptions like Murray was able to achieve. There wasn't much of a question last season that Murray was the "Elite" back in the league. You don't win AP Offensive Player of the Year, First team all Pro, and MVP candidate and not have had a season that would qualify as elite.

All you need to know if that Drew Brees was rated as Elite over Romo to realize this is just purely an opinion piece that leans heavily on Opinions.

I don't necessarily hold that to be true either, considering romo's usage rate was well below the other top 5 qbs. remember those early years when felix jones had nearly a 10 ypc average? He did it on so few carries, and that number dropped dramatically as his carries went up. I tend to believe that with more volume, romo's numbers will regress towards his career averages.

 

[superonyx]

I don't necessarily hold that to be true either, considering romo's usage rate was well below the other top 5 qbs. remember those early years when felix jones had nearly a 10 ypc average? He did it on so few carries, and that number dropped dramatically as his carries went up. I tend to believe that with more volume, romo's numbers will regress towards his career averages.

Haha...please tell me you are not comparing Romo last season to Felix Jones in a back up role.
You do realize that Romo had 69% completion percentage with 3700 yards last year. This is with missing some time also. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. First you say Murray was only good because he had so many opportunities (a point that I easily carved up) and now you want to cut Romo down because he wasn't used enough...so in both cases you are choosing to ignore the actually productivity or efficiency of either player. So which one is it? What matter most?

Btw....If Romo went back down to his career averages he would still have finished higher than all but 1 of those QB's. His career QB rating is second all time.

 

[erod]

PFF is such a waste of time. Bunch of paste-eating dorks who've never been on a date.

 

[Jstopper]

yes, yac is most certainly is factored into ypa. It is simply the total number of yards acrued divided by the number of pass attempts. It makes no distinction between a screen pass that goes for 99 yards or a 99 yd td that traveled 60 yards through the air. I'm actually shocked that two other people agreed with you.

Maybe I have the name of the stat wrong but I read on more than 1 article that whatever stat measures a qb throw distance without wr yards and Romo led the league in it. Thought it was ypa

 

[JDSmith]

Maybe I have the name of the stat wrong but I read on more than 1 article that whatever stat measures a qb throw distance without wr yards and Romo led the league in it. Thought it was ypa

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-air-yards/2014/

Romo leads in air yards per attempt.

edit: I did a little additional math to take it a step further, and since Rodgers and the guy from Pittsburgh were brought up.

Air Yards Per Completion:
Romo 6.68
Rodgers 6.42
Rothlwhatever 6.32

 

[JDSmith]

Peyton and Luck air it out more than Romo, their air yards per completion are higher than his. But since Tony completes a higher percentage his aypa is still higher.

 

[ftghb]

Haha...please tell me you are not comparing Romo last season to Felix Jones in a back up role.
You do realize that Romo had 69% completion percentage with 3700 yards last year. This is with missing some time also. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. First you say Murray was only good because he had so many opportunities (a point that I easily carved up) and now you want to cut Romo down because he wasn't used enough...so in both cases you are choosing to ignore the actually productivity or efficiency of either player. So which one is it? What matter most?

Btw....If Romo went back down to his career averages he would still have finished higher than all but 1 of those QB's. His career QB rating is second all time.

i never said murray is 'so good'. You, specifically, brought up the OPY argument, but behind that oline and getting 400 carries, I never indicated that getting 1800 yards for him was phenomenal. You're the murray cocksucker, not me; so stop putting words in my mouth.

like i said, the other elite qbs throwing the ball as often as they do suffer more from a efficiency standpoint, but in this instance, the volume of counting stats weighs heavier in the other qbs favor. In some cases, you have qbs producing nearly 1000 more yards through the air, and average <1 yard per attempt despite romo's high efficiency, ultra low volume numbers?

Roethlisberger and Rodgers were clearly the cream of the crop when weighing both counting stats AND efficiency. For example, rodgers had nearly 100 more attempts and still threw 4 less interceptions than tony? Roethlisberger, nearly 200 more attempts and threw the same number of interceptions as tony? and both produced more than 600 yards passing than romo....(in roethlisberger's case: 1,200!)

 

[superonyx]

i never said murray is 'so good'. You, specifically, brought up the OPY argument, but behind that oline and getting 400 carries, I never indicated that getting 1800 yards for him was phenomenal. You're the murray cocksucker, not me; so stop putting words in my mouth.

like i said, the other elite qbs throwing the ball as often as they do suffer more from a efficiency standpoint, but in this instance, the volume of counting stats weighs heavier in the other qbs favor. In some cases, you have qbs producing nearly 1000 more yards through the air, and average <1 yard per attempt despite romo's high efficiency, ultra low volume numbers? Roethlisberger and Rodgers were clearly the cream of the crop when weighing both counting stats AND efficiency. For example, rodgers had nearly 100 more attempts and still threw 4 less interceptions than tony and 4 more touchdowns? Roethlisberger, nearly 200 more attempts and threw the same number of interceptions as tony?

I never said that you said anything about Murray being "so good". You misread my post. You actually dismissed Murray and used his many carries as the justification for doing so. You ignored his high 4.7 YPC or his 50 receptions. You are having a hard time comprehending and keeping your head pointed in a consistent direction.

It's pretty simple. You say Murray wasn't elite because he had so many carries. Yet you will not apply the same logic to bring Rapisburger or any of the QB's down. Why are you diminishing Murray due to attempts yet praising the "elite" QB's because they have more attempts and yards?

Back to the QB's. You use a single stat to attempt to elevate Rodgers or Rapisburger over Romo yet you ignore that Romo had better efficiency. You call Romo's season "ultra low volume". Brady was labeled as Elite. He had about 300 yards more than Romo. Was that also Ultra Low Volume? Is throwing 33 touchdowns Ultra Low Volume? If Romo would have played a half season or had 2000 yards passing then I could see your point. However ignoring his superior efficiency to every QB in the league by calling 3700 yards 33 TD's "ultra low volume" just makes you sound like a fool.

I surely don't need to put words in your mouth. You do a good enough job of that on your own.
What are you an Steelers fan?

 

[coult44]

.....ONE YEAR!!!

Doesn't matter.. That's a very bad and week argument. If you're a first team all pro at your position, nobody is better. Last year, nobody was better than Smith and Martin. Some say Pouncey was better than Fred, so I guess. But elite doesn't mean experienced.

 

[ftghb]

I never said that you said anything about Murray being "so good". You misread my post. You actually dismissed Murray and used his many carries as the justification for doing so. You ignored his high 4.7 YPC or his 50 receptions. You are having a hard time comprehending and keeping your head pointed in a consistent direction.

It's pretty simple. You say Murray wasn't elite because he had so many carries. Yet you will not apply the same logic to bring Rapisburger or any of the QB's down. Why are you diminishing Murray due to attempts yet praising the "elite" QB's because they have more attempts and yards?

Back to the QB's. You use a single stat to attempt to elevate Rodgers or Rapisburger over Romo yet you ignore that Romo had better efficiency. You call Romo's season "ultra low volume". Brady was labeled as Elite. He had about 300 yards more than Romo. Was that also Ultra Low Volume? Is throwing 33 touchdowns Ultra Low Volume? If Romo would have played a half season or had 2000 yards passing then I could see your point. However ignoring his superior efficiency to every QB in the league by calling 3700 yards 33 TD's "ultra low volume" just makes you sound like a fool.

I surely don't need to put words in your mouth. You do a good enough job of that on your own.
What are you an Steelers fan?

Okay, that makes more sense. Your choice of wording "First you say Murray was only good " threw me off. That makes it an easier point for me to argue. The dude had the most yards in the league before contact. Approximately half his yards he essentially got for free. I don't know what to do with the 50 receptions part, is that supposed to be good or something? for 413 yards and 7 ypc average, that's not all that dissimilar from year's past. LeVeon bell had 816 yards receiving, what's your point? Marshawn lynch and arian foster had not dissimilar YCo (yards after contact) despite 200 less carries than murray. Murray also graded out negatively in blocking compared to the "elites". You know, the stuff that i said doesn't factor into voter's minds when considering OPY?

I didn't mention brady in my argument. But with him DVOAs and quality of receivers do come into play. So even if he had worse counting stats + efficiency compared to the top guys, the fact that he had a worse offensive line, worse receivers, worse supporting cast than romo will affect that final outcome. And again, more than 150 pass attempts + 400 more yards and same number of interceptions as romo?

 

[superonyx]

Okay, that makes more sense. Your choice of wording "First you say Murray was only good " threw me off. That makes it an easier point for me to argue. The dude had the most yards in the league before contact. Approximately half his yards he essentially got for free. I don't know what to do with the 50 receptions part, is that supposed to be good or something? for 413 yards and 7 ypc average, that's not all that dissimilar from year's past. LeVeon bell had 816 yards receiving, what's your point? Marshawn lynch and arian foster had not dissimilar YCo (yards after contact) despite 200 less carries than murray. Murray also graded out negatively in blocking compared to the "elites". You know, the stuff that i said doesn't factor into voter's minds when considering OPY?

I didn't mention brady in my argument. But with him DVOAs and quality of receivers do come into play. So even if he had worse counting stats + efficiency compared to the top guys, the fact that he had a worse offensive line, worse receivers than romo will affect that final outcome.

The only back I saw this website label elite was Marshawn Lynch btw. So Leveon Bell isn't elite either.

But since I am getting too tired to continue this debate I will say this.
The more one looks at stats and picks and chooses which ones should matter when determining which players are Elite the more obvious it is that the only thing that led to them leaving Romo out of the Elite list is their opinions which the media has done a masterful job of only looking at the negative plays in Romo's season. There is absolutely zero statistical justification to call the other QB's elite and exclude Romo. He has thrown the ball plenty in his career. He has the 2nd highest QB efficiency rating in league history. He has the most 4th quarter comeback victory of active QB's, he has the highest QB rating in the 4th qtr in league history.

The man is absolutely Elite and leaving him off the list makes your list about as valuable as a piece of used toilet paper the day after Taco Tuesday.

 

[ftghb]

The only back I saw this website label elite was Marshawn Lynch btw. So Leveon Bell isn't elite either.

But since I am getting too tired to continue this debate I will say this.
The more one looks at stats and picks and chooses which ones should matter when determining which players are Elite the more obvious it is that the only thing that led to them leaving Romo out of the Elite list is their opinions which the media has done a masterful job of only looking at the negative plays in Romo's season. There is absolutely zero statistical justification to call the other QB's elite and exclude Romo. He has thrown the ball plenty in his career. He has the 2nd highest QB efficiency rating in league history. He has the most 4th quarter comeback victory of active QB's, he has the highest QB rating in the 4th qtr in league history.

The man is absolutely Elite and leaving him off the list makes your list about as valuable as a piece of used toilet paper the day after Taco Tuesday.

http://i.imgur.com/4Hhmuyy.png --- not arguing, but there's the breakdown for the 'elites' at the rb position. Leveon bell is prob not elite because his prior production doesn't justify it, but based on 2014, he was absolutely one of the best. (edit: THE best)

And I guess how do you define 'elite'? I throw my cutoff at top 3. Romo has certainly been consistently very good over the years, but has he ever had a knock your socks off year like manning in '13, rodgers in '12, brees in '11 or brady in '07, where he was just absolutely better than everybody at the position?

 

[superonyx]

http://i.imgur.com/4Hhmuyy.png --- not arguing, but there's the breakdown for the 'elites' at the rb position. Leveon bell is prob not elite because his prior production doesn't justify it, but based on 2014, he was absolutely one of the best. (edit: THE best)

And I guess how do you define 'elite'? I throw my cutoff at top 3. Romo has certainly been consistently very good over the years, but has he ever had a knock your socks off year like manning in '13, rodgers in '12, brees in '11 or brady in '07, where he was just absolutely better than everybody at the position?

Here is how I look at Elite... Who would you rather have as your QB for the season you are about to play? The only guy who is close is Rodgers for me. I would not replace Romo with that fat turd up in Pittsburgh, I wouldn't replace him with Brees, or Manning. With Romo you get consistency combined with game winning ability.

If I am only looking at top 3 then Romo is Elite. I have to rank him as number 1 or 2 currently. Surely higher than Brees at this point.

 

[ftghb]

Here is how I look at Elite... Who would you rather have as your QB for the season you are about to play? The only guy who is close is Rodgers for me. I would not replace Romo with that fat turd up in Pittsburgh, I wouldn't replace him with Brees, or Manning. With Romo you get consistency combined with game winning ability.

If I am only looking at top 3 then Romo is Elite. I have to rank him as number 1 or 2 currently. Surely higher than Brees at this point.

well, i don't want to really go there considering all the other aforementioned quarterbacks have superbowl rings.............

And I'm not anymore of a roethlisberger fan than you are, but he had pretty ridiculous year in 2014. 67% passing with a 8.15 YPA and nearly 5,000 yards playing most of his games in those ****** outdoor stadiums. The only thing I would say romo really had on him was lack of passing touchdowns, and well......dez bryant is a statistical anomaly.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Here is how I look at Elite... Who would you rather have as your QB for the season you are about to play? The only guy who is close is Rodgers for me. I would not replace Romo with that fat turd up in Pittsburgh, I wouldn't replace him with Brees, or Manning. With Romo you get consistency combined with game winning ability.

If I am only looking at top 3 then Romo is Elite. I have to rank him as number 1 or 2 currently. Surely higher than Brees at this point.

I think its all subjective. You ask a Packers fan he's going to take Rodgers over Romo. You ask a Aint's fan they will take Brees over Romo. IMO, all of these guys are all on the same level. Aaron is the only one i'd put in a category by himself but I believe Brady, Rivers, Romo, Roethlisberger, Cam.....you can win in this league with either one of them.