CN: Whipping the Pistol -- Or, How Not to Get Pistol Whipped?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If the play is to the strong side and you are playing with the OLB over the TE then you have the OLB to take the TE, the DE and ILB for the RB and QB. The DE keeps everything inside and the ILB cleans up. You still have the SS and CB to deal with the pass if you try and run the WR to the inside or up the field. Having a guy with great range on the weakside like Bruce Carter certainly helps.

That all breaks down if you cannot force a double team because then the guard gets a free shot at the ILB which scuttles the defense.

This notion that the option is not defensible is asinine.

 

[xwalker]

Right! And this is one of the points that I was making to Dooms, that if an opposing team knows one of the the other teams best players is hurt, go after him. Ware was playing with basically one arm in that game.

Ware's injury was a big problem. It was unfortunate that they didn't have a reasonable backup to Ware. Victor Butler had some pass rush ability but just didn't play the run worth a darn.

 

[5Stars]

Ware's injury was a big problem. It was unfortunate that they didn't have a reasonable backup to Ware. Victor Butler had some pass rush ability but just didn't play the run worth a darn.

This is why I think I'm liking going back to the 4-3. Let your best pass rushers get as much pressure as they can, then let the LB's pick up the backend.

I think if you just use the defensive linemen to get after their butts, full out, it makes things more difficult for the QB and RB to try and trick you with some silly plays.

Pressure up the middle and from both sides and let the chips fall. The 4-3 that Landry ran with the Manster, Too Tall, Harvey Martin...go get em!

 

[Doomsday101]

If the play is to the strong side and you are playing with the OLB over the TE then you have the OLB to take the TE, the DE and ILB for the RB and QB. The DE keeps everything inside and the ILB cleans up. You still have the SS and CB to deal with the pass if you try and run the WR to the inside or up the field. Having a guy with great range on the weakside like Bruce Carter certainly helps.

That all breaks down if you cannot force a double team because then the guard gets a free shot at the ILB which scuttles the defense.

This notion that the option is not defensible is asinine.

By the same token any offense can be defended, hell the WCO can be stopped just as well but it is not going to be tossed out it is a good offense that works and so is the pistol, I don't see this as a fad that will go away. Can it be defensed? sure it can but it also puts a lot of pressure on defense.

 

[jterrell]

The read option as the Commanders ran it is not a pitch though. The mesh point is a hand off behind the LOS which is why the pistol and the read option work so well together.

So in the examples of RG3 and Vick, they aren't running and pitching as more so they are either faking the handoff and keeping, or giving the ball and faking their own run (in which case RG3 threw up his hands to say 'I don't have the ball' and never got touched)

The "beat up the QB strategy" really isn't going to be that viable

A few more words on this

http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-Commanders/talk/k-shanahan-pistol-key-everything

The beat up the QB game is VERY viable.
It is exactly what will happen.

That is why the read-option stuff will eventually be limited.
QBs are going to be hit hard when they make those read fakes whether they hand the ball off or not.

The piston is the formation most widely used right now in youth football in many areas and probably overall. I had my nephew install it for his K-1st grade team even. Its a 3 yard snap and tons of options of it. But at its heart it is basic wing t football with a 3 yard shotgun snap.

The read-option itself though is more complicated. VY ran that at UT to defeat USC. That's where Carroll found that play to be so deadly.
Also why adding VY here as a 3rd QB and Read-Option look guy makes so much sense.

The Skins and other teams will limit read-option stuff because it does get the QB hit and that takes a toll. Anyone think Brady or Manning ever get asked to make a read-option play go? This league is all about protecting the QB.

 

[jterrell]

By the same token any offense can be defended, hell the WCO can be stopped just as well but it is not going to be tossed out it is a good offense that works and so is the pistol, I don't see this as a fad that will go away. Can it be defensed? sure it can but it also puts a lot of pressure on defense.

the pistol isn't an offense it is just a formation.

it offers the benefits of a short shotgun while allowing a downhill runner behind the QB still.

the plays out of the pistol have largely been effective for running the ball and making short passes. it worked very well last year because it went against the grain of all the other NFL offenses which were spream em out passing offenses of some sort.

i do believe it will leave footprints in this game as a running formation for a long time. it isn't as gimmicky as the wildcat stuff but also isn't going to be a long-term base offense for many teams.

 

[Idgit]

...The Skins and other teams will limit read-option stuff because it does get the QB hit and that takes a toll. Anyone think Brady or Manning ever get asked to make a read-option play go? This league is all about protecting the QB.

Very good post and, I think, exactly right. But I will say one thing about the read-option in the NFL: it subjects the QB to a lot of hits, but it also widens the pool of players who can run the system in this league. If you get another 4-5 guys on NFL rosters who otherwise would not stick in this league because teams are more forgiving of lacking QB fundamentals or abilities in other areas, that offsets somewhat the effects of getting a starter injured. Granted, it's still a huge deterrent to lose a quality starter at QB, but if the system opens up NFL QB supply enough that teams like SF and WAS and SEA can afford to field decent backup QBs, it will help it stick. You're already seeing teams like NE opening up QB3 slots for what's probably that purpose, cutting a decent player like Kafka in the process.

 

[jterrell]

Very good post and, I think, exactly right. But I will say one thing about the read-option in the NFL: it subjects the QB to a lot of hits, but it also widens the pool of players who can run the system in this league. If you get another 4-5 guys on NFL rosters who otherwise would not stick in this league because teams are more forgiving of lacking QB fundamentals or abilities in other areas, that offsets somewhat the effects of getting a starter injured. Granted, it's still a huge deterrent to lose a quality starter at QB, but if the system opens up NFL QB supply enough that teams like SF and WAS and SEA can afford to field decent backup QBs, it will help it stick. You're already seeing teams like NE opening up QB3 slots for what's probably that purpose, cutting a decent player like Kafka in the process.

Very fair point there and you are correct. A guy like Wilson may continue to be asked to run it. 3rd round picks aren't irreplaceable but franchise QBs are.

The biggest thing is even a guy like Wilson may only be asked to run it early in their careers.

That's the rub with Vick. Can he run the offense at this age without getting knocked out of games in the 1st quarter.

I think it would be quite intriguing if a team ran two offense with moderate skill level QBs and kept defenses guessing while lessening the need for a top QB to win. Intriguing indeed. AND I fully realize that is a crazy long shot but young losing teams without a franchise QB have little to lose trying something "crazy".

 

[visionary]

Very good post and, I think, exactly right. But I will say one thing about the read-option in the NFL: it subjects the QB to a lot of hits, but it also widens the pool of players who can run the system in this league. If you get another 4-5 guys on NFL rosters who otherwise would not stick in this league because teams are more forgiving of lacking QB fundamentals or abilities in other areas, that offsets somewhat the effects of getting a starter injured. Granted, it's still a huge deterrent to lose a quality starter at QB, but if the system opens up NFL QB supply enough that teams like SF and WAS and SEA can afford to field decent backup QBs, it will help it stick. You're already seeing teams like NE opening up QB3 slots for what's probably that purpose, cutting a decent player like Kafka in the process.

what purpose is 'that'?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

By the same token any offense can be defended, hell the WCO can be stopped just as well but it is not going to be tossed out it is a good offense that works and so is the pistol, I don't see this as a fad that will go away. Can it be defensed? sure it can but it also puts a lot of pressure on defense.

I don't disagree. It will generate one on ones by virtue of the QB having to be accounted for. My point is all of the wide open receivers were a product of lack of preparation or discipline. Defenders are used to play action where they do not have to prepare for that extra threat from a QB run.

You know that with 4 games against this offense, there are going to be a lot of reps dedicated to said discipline. Ryan's preparation was lacking. That was obvious from the product.

 

[jterrell]

I don't disagree. It will generate one on ones by virtue of the QB having to be accounted for. My point is all of the wide open receivers were a product of lack of preparation or discipline. Defenders are used to play action where they do not have to prepare for that extra threat from a QB run.

You know that with 4 games against this offense, there are going to be a lot of reps dedicated to said discipline. Ryan's preparation was lacking. That was obvious from the product.

Wasn't about Ryan. It was lacking all over the league.

The offense caused problems for everyone same as the wildcat did in its first season of use.

 

[Doomsday101]

I don't disagree. It will generate one on ones by virtue of the QB having to be accounted for. My point is all of the wide open receivers were a product of lack of preparation or discipline. Defenders are used to play action where they do not have to prepare for that extra threat from a QB run.

You know that with 4 games against this offense, there are going to be a lot of reps dedicated to said discipline. Ryan's preparation was lacking. That was obvious from the product.

That would make sense if it were only the Cowboys that the skins were able to move the ball on via the Pistol but it wasn't. They lead the entire NFL in rushing, they stayed in great down and distance to be able to run or pass as they choose. As for RGIII he is not taking the ball outside then pitching at the last moment like some conventional option offense, the read is made quick allowing the RB to use cut back lanes which Shannahan has made a very good career out of be it Washington or in Denver. Add to that yes RGIII can run and only issue with injury is when he fails to get out of bounds or slide in open field, he is not taking the big hit as he pitches it and likely will not sice it is not like the old option. This is a very good offensive system and I don't think teams will be ditching anytime soon.

 

[jterrell]

That would make sense if it were only the Cowboys that the skins were able to move the ball on via the Pistol but it wasn't. They lead the entire NFL in rushing, they stayed in great down and distance to be able to run or pass as they choose. As for RGIII he is not taking the ball outside then pitching at the last moment like some conventional option offense, the read is made quick allowing the RB to use cut back lanes which Shannahan has made a very good career out of be it Washington or in Denver. Add to that yes RGIII can run and only issue with injury is when he fails to get out of bounds or slide in open field, he is not taking the big hit as he pitches it and likely will not sice it is not like the old option. This is a very good offensive system and I don't think teams will be ditching anytime soon.

Any time a QB runs a read or play-action fake he is open to being hit.

It isn't just when you are outside running a traditional wide option play. Pistol QBs do take more hits than your typical pro-style offense QBs do.

RG3 is already faced a career threatening injury. The Skins will not run him out there in read-option.

In a pistol where the QB is a run or pass option the referees can not protect them the same as they do in a traditional pocket. Defenses understand this and tee off. See Seattle versus Washington for example. That game totaled only 583 yards by both teams and had 11 second half points. That game will be amust watch for all teams this off-season for defending the pistol formation and the read-option plays.

 

[xwalker]

Any time a QB runs a read or play-action fake he is open to being hit.

It isn't just when you are outside running a traditional wide option play. Pistol QBs do take more hits than your typical pro-style offense QBs do.

RG3 is already faced a career threatening injury. The Skins will not run him out there in read-option.

In a pistol where the QB is a run or pass option the referees can not protect them the same as they do in a traditional pocket. Defenses understand this and tee off. See Seattle versus Washington for example. That game totaled only 583 yards by both teams and had 11 second half points. That game will be a must watch for all teams this off-season for defending the pistol formation and the read-option plays.

Yes, the QB is moving towards the line in the read-option vs dropping back away from the line in a standard pass set.

 

[Doomsday101]

Any time a QB runs a read or play-action fake he is open to being hit.

It isn't just when you are outside running a traditional wide option play. Pistol QBs do take more hits than your typical pro-style offense QBs do.

RG3 is already faced a career threatening injury. The Skins will not run him out there in read-option.

In a pistol where the QB is a run or pass option the referees can not protect them the same as they do in a traditional pocket. Defenses understand this and tee off. See Seattle versus Washington for example. That game totaled only 583 yards by both teams and had 11 second half points. That game will be amust watch for all teams this off-season for defending the pistol formation and the read-option plays.

QB get hit no matter what offense. Hell Romo takes a bigger beating the RGIII has. simeple fact the offense works. I don't like the Commanders but I'm not blind to what they can do with in it. RGIII is not going to drop back 600 times they can run the ball, Morris was the 2nd leading rusher in the NFL and as long as they are able to do that RGIII will take less abuse than Romo. RGIII mistakes was trying to leap a defender down field and dancing down the sideline instead of getting out of bounds.

League is not going to let you hit the QB after he pitches the ball without throwing a flag so this notion you hit him every time? yeah and get the 15 every time. As you said this league is about protecting the QB and they are not going to permit free shots on RGIII

 

[xwalker]

RGIII and the read-option get a lot of credit for the rushing yardage in Washington; however, Shanahan has has great rushing attacks in the past without the read-option.

 

[Doomsday101]

the pistol isn't an offense it is just a formation.

it offers the benefits of a short shotgun while allowing a downhill runner behind the QB still.

the plays out of the pistol have largely been effective for running the ball and making short passes. it worked very well last year because it went against the grain of all the other NFL offenses which were spream em out passing offenses of some sort.

i do believe it will leave footprints in this game as a running formation for a long time. it isn't as gimmicky as the wildcat stuff but also isn't going to be a long-term base offense for many teams.

I don't see it as a gimmick formation at all. Wildcat was nothing but a RB taking the snap with the OB outside few teams will have that RB throwing a pass so it really was 1 dimentional. I don't think you need a fast QB to run it Dalton ran it and no where close to the speed of RGIII, Florence who took over for RGIII not near the running RGIII is but had very good success with it.

I think people are underestimating the effect of the pistol. People at one time thought the shotgun was a gimmick now every one runs it.

 

[jterrell]

QB get hit no matter what offense. Hell Romo takes a bigger beating the RGIII has. simeple fact the offense works. I don't like the Commanders but I'm not blind to what they can do with in it. RGIII is not going to drop back 600 times they can run the ball, Morris was the 2nd leading rusher in the NFL and as long as they are able to do that RGIII will take less abuse than Romo. RGIII mistakes was trying to leap a defender down field and dancing down the sideline instead of getting out of bounds.

League is not going to let you hit the QB after he pitches the ball without throwing a flag so this notion you hit him every time? yeah and get the 15 every time. As you said this league is about protecting the QB and they are not going to permit free shots on RGIII

That's just not true.

The Cowboys and Romo allowed 75 QB hits last year. The Commanders allowed 80. That is hits behind the line of scrimmage and does not include all the hits RG3 took on run plays. Considering the Commanders OL was light years better that indicates the offense the Skins ran played into the additional hits.

Again, even where a QB like Luck took a TON of hits in a pro style offense it is a different thing then taking hits like you are a runner. You can't take out a pocket QB at the legs or the head. You can take out a guy moving forward as a runner in either fashion provided it isn't a flagrant head shot.

Romo got hit plenty but he wasn't out there with a torn ACL which is a RB or WR injury much moreso than a QB.

 

[jterrell]

I don't see it as a gimmick formation at all. Wildcat was nothing but a RB taking the snap with the OB outside few teams will have that RB throwing a pass so it really was 1 dimentional. I don't think you need a fast QB to run it Dalton ran it and no where close to the speed of RGIII, Florence who took over for RGIII not near the running RGIII is but had very good success with it.

I think people are underestimating the effect of the pistol. People at one time thought the shotgun was a gimmick now every one runs it.

I don't think it is a gimmick either.
It is my favorite formation.

But it is a new formation that defenses have to adjust to like they did the wildcat. It does have disadvantages for NFL teams that lower level teams won't worry about like taking QB hits.

As stated above I think it sticks and leaves footprints on the game but I do not think it is close to becoming the most popular formation for NFL teams or even a regular base for a minority of teams. I think it'll settle in as a package for a few teams.

Even on the collegiate level there were few really good pistol QBs.
It is a rare skill set.

 

[jterrell]

I don't see it as a gimmick formation at all. Wildcat was nothing but a RB taking the snap with the OB outside few teams will have that RB throwing a pass so it really was 1 dimentional. I don't think you need a fast QB to run it Dalton ran it and no where close to the speed of RGIII, Florence who took over for RGIII not near the running RGIII is but had very good success with it.

I think people are underestimating the effect of the pistol. People at one time thought the shotgun was a gimmick now every one runs it.

Also note Baylor didn't run the pistol. They ran a spread and added in elements of the zone read. Much less zone read without RG3 but they did run them some. RG3 was in shotgun regularly not a short drop but full gun packages.

Go back and look at Kaepernick at Nevada for true pistol formation stuff. Tight formations with a running base.

TCU did run a lot of piston stuff with Dalton. They were a traditional power running team with a QB good enough to throw it down the field. They controlled the clock and ran the ball mostly which are pistol staples.

Briles is a former Leach (Tech) guy and spread guru.