CN: Whipping the Pistol -- Or, How Not to Get Pistol Whipped?

[dwmyers]

The pistol is a formation.

The phrase "read option" is an oxymoron, as *all* options involve a read of some kind.

More accurate would be "spread option", and I rather like the older "zone read".

D-

 

[DFWJC]

That Dallas defense was not even really the Dallas defesne with so many backups )or backups of backups) or injured players.

Just a hunch, but I suspect Sean Lee, Bruce Carter, Jay Ratliff, Barry Church, a non-crippled DeMarcus Ware, etc would make juuuust a bit of difference.

 

[5Stars]

That Dallas defense was not even really the Dallas defesne with so many backups )or backups of backups) or injured players.

Just a hunch, but I suspect Sean lee, Bruce Carter, Jay ratliff, Barry Church, a non-crippled DeMarcus ware, etc would make juuuust a bit of difference.

I doubt it, because as we all know, Romo lost that game. All those other players had nothing to do with the loss.

But, yeah, what we saw last year in RG21/2's first year is not going to happen again this season.

So, all you Commander fans, enjoy last year because it won't happen again, and if it does, you better pray that RG21/2 makes it through the season.

 

[Doomsday101]

I doubt it, because as we all know, Romo lost that game. All those other players had nothing to do with the loss.

But, yeah, what we saw last year in RG21/2's first year is not going to happen again this season.

So, all you Commander fans, enjoy last year because it won't happen again, and if it does, you better pray that RG21/2 makes it through the season.

I would not bank on that he is a good young QB and to put up the rushing yards they did shows consistency within the run game. If the skins can continue to do that then RGIII and the skins offense can pass as they choose not be forced to pass. Easier to throw when you want as opposed to throwing because you have to.

The skin becoming a better team hinges more on defense than offense.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That opens up the passing game, and RG3 has a thanksgiving day like performance every quarter

Nonsense.

If the RB is staying in for the run fake then you can account for him with a defender that is playing the run. The option only works if the option attacks different gaps. If you want to run the pitch option playing off the safety to attack the outside then you go right ahead.

That gives a clearer path for the LB to get shots at him. Now he is a great athlete but he isn't going to make people miss every time especially after he fails to do so a time or two.

It really comes down to whether a DT can demand a double team. If there isn't one then you are going to have issues no matter what. You don't need much trickery at that point.

If you are going to assign one guy to defend both options you are screwed. If you have two guys then you assign each one to an option. You tell whoever is assigned the QB to try and delay the read and plow the QB when he gets close no matter what. If he doesn't delay the read then don't get a flag.

Sure you get one on one matchups which can be favorable for the offense but when you put your QB as one of the possible matchups then you hit him. It's not rocket science.

Our issue was that Ware specifically was getting frustrated and was trying to headhunt freelance. Morris and even gimp Griffin were getting into the secondary pretty much untouched because of it.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Problem is it is not just to the outside as the RB like Morris used cut back lanes as the line would pull. It is not like the old time pitch option it is a bit more detailed than that and QB can just as easy throw out of the formation with little pressure should the end go outside. If he pinches hard to the inside the QB pitches out to the back.

I get that. You have the ILB to take care of middle runs. If the playside DT can demand a DT then he should be in position to make a play. If they want to go completely to the other side then pursuit is what it is.

It's all about discipline and winning your matchups which so happens to be what Kiffin is all about.

 

[5Stars]

I would not bank on that he is a good young QB and to put up the rushing yards they did shows consistency within the run game. If the skins can continue to do that then RGIII and the skins offense can pass as they choose not be forced to pass. Easier to throw when you want as opposed to throwing because you have to.

The skin becoming a better team hinges more on defense than offense.

Oh, no doubt he is a good QB, but if Shanahan & Son want to try that stuff like they did last year, I think they will be in for a big surprise.

 

[Doomsday101]

Nonsense.

If the RB is staying in for the run fake then you can account for him with a defender that is playing the run. The option only works if the option attacks different gaps. If you want to run the pitch option playing off the safety to attack the outside then you go right ahead.

That gives a clearer path for the LB to get shots at him. Now he is a great athlete but he isn't going to make people miss every time especially after he fails to do so a time or two.

It really comes down to whether a DT can demand a double team. If there isn't one then you are going to have issues no matter what. You don't need much trickery at that point.

If you are going to assign one guy to defend both options you are screwed. If you have two guys then you assign each one to an option. You tell whoever is assigned the QB to try and delay the read and plow the QB when he gets close no matter what. If he doesn't delay the read then don't get a flag.

Sure you get one on one matchups which can be favorable for the offense but when you put your QB as one of the possible matchups then you hit him. It's not rocket science.

Our issue was that Ware specifically was getting frustrated and was trying to headhunt freelance. Morris and even gimp Griffin were getting into the secondary pretty much untouched because of it.

QB is making the read before they even come close to him, he is not outside when he is making the read, if the end man comes down he will pitch it if the end moves outside the QB will run or pass. If you are using a man to cover the QB and a man to cover the pitch man then you are leaving an opening in the pass.

The pass is a key element of the pistol. All I need is for the inside LB of safety to leave the area to then have a TE or WR go into the open area for a pass.

The old fashion option was nothing more than the QB keeping the ball or pitching the ball but this offense uses the pass to go along with it. As mention above it is more of a spread option than a rushing option like the wishbone

 

[xwalker]

Another method to defend the read-option is early backfield penetration.

 

[Doomsday101]

Oh, no doubt he is a good QB, but if Shanahan & Son want to try that stuff like they did last year, I think they will be in for a big surprise.

I don't think so, RGIII injuries came when he failed to protect himself in the open field. If he slides or gets out of bounds then he is not taking the punishment. This is not a matter of hitting RGIII anytime they run it if you do then that is 15 yards roughing call. They are taking a league who loves protecting the QB and using it to their own advantage. Smart move if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong I hate the skins but I think people continue to look at the pistol the same was as they looked the the old time option where one guy to the RB and one took the QB but the read and pitch are taking place before the QB even gets to the outside and in many cases the defense opens the passing lane for the QB to throw it to the open area that is now clear.

To me the key is pretty much like any other and that is penetration and disruption by the defense. Blowing the play up before he gets started.

 

[Doomsday101]

Another method to defend the read-option is early backfield penetration.

I think that is a good way to defend any play

 

[DFWJC]

I think that is a good way to defend any play

Romo agrees.

 

[Califan007]

That Dallas defense was not even really the Dallas defesne with so many backups )or backups of backups) or injured players.

Just a hunch, but I suspect Sean lee, Bruce Carter, Jay ratliff, Barry Church, a non-crippled DeMarcus ware, etc would make juuuust a bit of difference.

Most likely...but I suspect that a 100% healthy RG3 would have made juuuust a little bit more of a difference ...

Besides, during the 1st 6 games of the season when Lee and Carter were playing, Ware was healthier and Church played in half of those games, the Cowboys ranked #15 in rushing yards allowed and #20 in rushing TDs allowed. For comparison sake, the Vikings at the time they played the Commanders were ranked #6 in terms of rushing yards allowed and had only allowed 1 rushing TD.

Griffin and Morris racked up 185 rushing yards and 3 TDs against them.

I'm guessing that a healthy RG3/Morris combo wouldn't have worried too much about the Cowboys at full(er) strength. And I think Lee's a bonafide stud.

 

[Doomsday101]

Romo agrees.

Yeah it works, if you can disrupt a play at the snap it is hard for any offense to move consistently. That is why the 85 Bears were one of the best in league history.

 

[Califan007]

The pass is a key element of the pistol. All I need is for the inside LB of safety to leave the area to then have a TE or WR go into the open area for a pass.

The old fashion option was nothing more than the QB keeping the ball or pitching the ball but this offense uses the pass to go along with it. As mention above it is more of a spread option than a rushing option like the wishbone

NFL.com has a video showing the Skins' offense doing just that (the part in bold) over and over again with consistent success...their write up said it was "almost laughable watching the Commanders offense" do that to opposing defenses (or words close to that).

 

[Doomsday101]

NFL.com has a video showing the Skins' offense doing just that (the part in bold) over and over again with consistent success...their write up said it was "almost laughable watching the Commanders offense" do that to opposing defenses (or words close to that).

That is the tough part if all you were defending was the running aspect then great take the end to get the QB and the LB or safety to get the pitch man but when you throw the pass into the mix then taking that LB or safety just allows for open space to run the TE or WR into the area for a simple pitch and catch.

 

[5Stars]

I don't think so, RGIII injuries came when he failed to protect himself in the open field. If he slides or gets out of bounds then he is not taking the punishment. This is not a matter of hitting RGIII anytime they run it if you do then that is 15 yards roughing call. They are taking a league who loves protecting the QB and using it to their own advantage. Smart move if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong I hate the skins but I think people continue to look at the pistol the same was as they looked the the old time option where one guy to the RB and one took the QB but the read and pitch are taking place before the QB even gets to the outside and in many cases the defense opens the passing lane for the QB to throw it to the open area that is now clear.

To me the key is pretty much like any other and that is penetration and disruption by the defense. Blowing the play up before he gets started.

No, I agree with all of this. However, and you and I know this a well.

Injuries are a part of the game, and I don't like players that take cheap shots at other players, but it does happen. We hear it all the time that if some opposing player has an injury, the other team is going to try and exploit it.

It's not right, but it does happen. So if the Commanders want to run him around like a chicken with his head cut off, there are going to be players trying to take a shot at his knee unintentional or not.

RG21/2 needs to first learn how to be a conventional pocket passer QB first, and then if he has a shot to break away, then go for it. But this offense that they are teaching him is going to hurt his career. Just look at Vick. He wants to run, go for it! But you will not last the season. IMO.

 

[xwalker]

I think that is a good way to defend any play

Romo agrees.

Yeah it works, if you can disrupt a play at the snap it is hard for any offense to move consistently. That is why the 85 Bears were one of the best in league history.

Yes, it is good against any play; however, with the read-option, the RB is not generally in a good position to block for the QB. Also, with the RB and QB bunched tightly together with the QB offset slightly to one side of the RB and the QB up near the line of scrimmage, early penetration leaves the QB in a vulnerable position compared to the positioning of the QB on a standard drop back pass.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

QB is making the read before they even come close to him, he is not outside when he is making the read, if the end man comes down he will pitch it if the end moves outside the QB will run or pass. If you are using a man to cover the QB and a man to cover the pitch man then you are leaving an opening in the pass.

The pass is a key element of the pistol. All I need is for the inside LB of safety to leave the area to then have a TE or WR go into the open area for a pass.

The old fashion option was nothing more than the QB keeping the ball or pitching the ball but this offense uses the pass to go along with it. As mention above it is more of a spread option than a rushing option like the wishbone

That is only if the QB is presented with what he wants to see. Spencer against Carolina did a great job of zoning the play as he approached it. That did two things. First it allowed his help to get in position by making the QB wait for his read. Second it allowed him to get close.

That is exactly why Washington ran it at Ware. Ware attacks and it was used against him. He didn't exhibit the proper patience and allow the play to come to him. When he went at it, he made the read easy and early.

The pass option is nothing new either. If you have the DT demanding a double team then you should have guys able to cover as well as play the run to the play side. You have the DE, OLB and play side safety. What should have been 3 or 4 yard runs got turned into 15 yarders because our guys at the POA were failing hard.

 

[5Stars]

That is only if the QB is presented with what he wants to see. Spencer against Carolina did a great job of zoning the play as he approached it. That did two things. First it allowed his help to get in position by making the QB wait for his read. Second it allowed him to get close.

That is exactly why Washington ran it at Ware. Ware attacks and it was used against him. He didn't exhibit the proper patience and allow the play to come to him. When he went at it, he made the read easy and early.

The pass option is nothing new either. If you have the DT demanding a double team then you should have guys able to cover as well as play the run to the play side. You have the DE, OLB and play side safety. What should have been 3 or 4 yard runs got turned into 15 yarders because our guys at the POA were failing hard.

Right! And this is one of the points that I was making to Dooms, that if an opposing team knows one of the the other teams best players is hurt, go after him. Ware was playing with basically one arm in that game.