Could it be...

[Charles]

Belichick, Johnson, Walsh, Gibbs, Seifer and Shanahan all won at least two Super bowls in the modern era too, skippy.

But none of the above mentioned coaches resurrected 3 DIFFERENT NFL FRANCHISES, not to mention Parcells is working on his 4th.......

So while your smart enough to throw around a couple of great coaching names you completely missed the point................If you got it you'd realize why I nominated your post for "dumbest Post of the Year" :

Last I checked Parcells never won a Super Bowl in the salary cap age, never won one without Belichick,

Jimmy Johnson didn't win any Super Bowls in the salary Cap age, never won one without Dave Wanndest, Norve Tuner, Butch Davis so what?...........

Every great coach has a family tree and success still came after the tree brached out. The facts are Belicheck came from the Parcell's coaching tree .......not vice versa. Parcells resurrected Belicheck career after he failed miserably in Cleveland. Belicheck resusrected his career using talented players drafted by Parcells as a Defenisive Co-ordinator and as a Head coach.

quit on NE with them going to the Super Bowl,

That is like saying Jimmy Johnson quit on the Cowboys after they won 2 SuperBowls........ego's came into play between Parcells and the Patriots ownership/front office. But he still left a nucleus of talented players like Jimmy did, Kraft 1st hire after Parcells was bust.......Jerry Jones hire after Jimmy won him another SuperBowl.

Kraft went back to a guy who worked great under Parcells....Belichick. Belicheck would have not got that Patriots gig if it wasn't for the familiarity developed with the Patriots organization while working under Parcells.

and left the Jets before finishing the job, and passed on the Tampa job for what reason, hmm?

Maybe if you repeat yourself 100 times someone might believe Parcells didn't leave the Jets in a better situation.

Who was Parcells defensive Co-ordinator with the Jets? Why doesn't he get some of the blame.........doesn't Belicheck get some glory for the SuperBowl years.

You can't have it both ways..........

Is this what you call tearing apart........your posts have little to zero substance.

Your logic is based on him being the greatest IF he wins one in Dallas, you know how stupid that sounds? His resume is both good and bad, you refuse to see the negatives.

Actually, my logic is based on his resume, which is impecable and has never been equaled. He has resusrected 4 NFL franchises. The Cowboys had only won 15 games in 3 seasons. Parcells has proven he can take a franchise from the pits and make them respectable. Jerry Jones got the right man for the right job.

And IF Parcells is to win a SuperBowl in Dallas he will go down as arguably the greatest coach im modern NFL history because he'd have resurected 4 NFL franchise, been to 2 Superbowls pre salary Cap, 2 SuperBowls post salary Cap and 3 SuperBowl championships rings.

Even if he doesn't win a SuperBowl in Dallas, his arrival in Dallas will be pointed by any knowlegable football person, that that is when the change began.

You fail to recognize the obvious because you are putting your personal agendas before the good of the teeam. You critize Parcells resume because he refuses to play your favorite QB in Henson and makes scheme changes that you don't think are feasable.

Heck, even LaTuna admits his many faults. Which makes sense, because she is a thoughtful poster.

Is that all you've got. It that you interpretation of tearing me apart?

 

[dargonking999]

BTW we had won 15 games in the past three season, we have won 16 in the past two and had one playoff apperance, sorry to say but that isnt because BP brought in a whole new roster

 

[Charles]

BTW we had won 15 games in the past three season, we have won 16 in the past two and had one playoff apperance, sorry to say but that isnt because BP brought in a whole new roster

Wow a Head coach whom is being considered the problem by BZ is the sole reason we made that significant a leap.

The bottom line is winning

3 years prior to Parcells = 15 wins

2 years under Parcells = 16 wins...Including a Play-off berth

Folks that is bang for your buck.

Some needs to close this thread because BZ dumbness can't go un-checked :laugh1:

 

[Mash]

Parcells did inherit a mess here.....but the coaches before him had Jerry and Lacewell drafting....and cap hell from winning SB in the early 90's

Parcell did a nice job winning 10 games but we were lucky and fortunate enough to play some lousy teams that year and some had backup QB's starting.

Bill came here with money to spend and Jerry's blessing....Campo and Gailey had no say in their assistants or who was going to be drafted.

Bill has full control and the luxury of drafting high.....and a boat load of money to spend on FA's at his fingertips. We should expect more wins and talented players on this team.

But there is still alot of question marks for this team....we don't know how our rookies will pan out. I'm optismistic that a handfull will be solid players....but then again I thought we had some solid drafts before and very few panned out.

We have no idea on how Henry will play....ditto with Ferguson....Bill is trusting Zimmer to implement the 3-4 when its greek to him.....who knows what will happen there. Zimmer in no Belichick....Bill will soon find out.

All I know is that when you draft a player high.....bigger expectations are set....Newman hasn't met them IMHO....Williams played out of position so I will give him some slack. Ware needs to see the field and so does Spears.

We got a taste of what Julius is made of....but I want to see it for a full season....Our center Johnson is overrated on this forum....I thought he played okay....not spectacular. Teams still over power us and blitz us to death up the middle.....Gurode gets most of the blame....but I think Johnston deserves his equal share.

Our second year OL that Parcells drafted are big questions marks also and may be asked to play a position they didn't play in college. We brought in some stinkers like Wiley and George with Parcells stamp of approval.....we heard countless times how a player is looking great in TC and Billy is expecting big things from them and by the time the season is a 3rd over....those same players were released or never see the field because they suck.

I think Bill is a good coach....but I'm not in awe with him or his decision making.....This team should be better....now and 5 years from now....not "I'm too old to lose crap" or picking up washed up vets so we can be a .500 team.

With the resources Bill has....I expect more....lets see how this season pans out.

 

[blindzebra]

But none of the above mentioned coaches resurrected 3 DIFFERENT NFL FRANCHISES, not to mention Parcells is working on his 4th.......

So while your smart enough to throw around a couple of great coaching names you completely missed the point................If you got it you'd realize why I nominated your post for "dumbest Post of the Year" :

Jimmy Johnson didn't win any Super Bowls in the salary Cap age, never won one without Dave Wanndest, Norve Tuner, Butch Davis so what?...........

Every great coach has a family tree and success still came after the tree brached out. The facts are Belicheck came from the Parcell's coaching tree .......not vice versa. Parcells resurrected Belicheck career after he failed miserably in Cleveland. Belicheck resusrected his career using talented players drafted by Parcells as a Defenisive Co-ordinator and as a Head coach.

That is like saying Jimmy Johnson quit on the Cowboys after they won 2 SuperBowls........ego's came into play between Parcells and the Patriots ownership/front office. But he still left a nucleus of talented players like Jimmy did, Kraft 1st hire after Parcells was bust.......Jerry Jones hire after Jimmy won him another SuperBowl.

Kraft went back to a guy who worked great under Parcells....Belichick. Belicheck would have not got that Patriots gig if it wasn't for the familiarity developed with the Patriots organization while working under Parcells.

Maybe if you repeat yourself 100 times someone might believe Parcells didn't leave the Jets in a better situation.

Is this what you call tearing apart........your posts have little to zero substance.

Actually, my logic is based on his resume, which is impecable and has never been equaled. He has resusrected 4 NFL franchises. The Cowboys had only won 15 games in 3 seasons. Parcells has proven he can take a franchise from the pits and make them respectable. Jerry Jones got the right man for the right job.

You fail to recognize the obvious because you are putting your personal agendas before the good of the teeam. You critize Parcells resume because he refuses to play your favorite QB in Henson and makes scheme changes that you don't think are feasable.




Is that all you've got. It that you interpretation of tearing me apart?

So repeating the same drivel over and over is winning an argument? Please.

You keep saying impeccable and resurrected, the bottom line is winning championships is it not? How many has he won on this resurrection tour? I think you should look up impeccable in the dictionary.

You brought up the salary cap issue, incorrectly I might add, so I called you on it. In debate terms that is called scoring points with your argument.

But whatever floats your boat.

Time to quote and reply line by line, throw in a few instead of actually having a point, and maybe go back and pull a completely off topic quote or two just to further deflect attention from not having an argument.

 

[Scotman]

I wasn't going to wade in here, but why not.


If Parcells is the problem, what is your answer to the problem?

The 6-10 disaster last year was still a game better that the 5-11 we had been suffering for years.

Since Parcells has arrived, we've won 14 games. With our first win this next year, we'll have caught the Campo era. With the second win, we'll have surpassed it.

We've got hope this year. We could be getting better, couldn't we?

Heck, I hate it that Ellis is mad. I hate it that sometimes the good guys don't make the team or stick around. I rooted for Dantzler as much as anyone. But I would really like to win. While I don't want to do it with just any thug off the NFL street, I don't think you build a champion by catering to the sensitivities of players who've never pushed the team over the hump.

I LOVE Ellis. Plain and simple. He's been very solid for us. But he hasn't been a difference maker. He doesn't keep DC up all night on Saturday.

So, if the point of this thread is that Parcells is the problem, you need to also offer some solution to the problem. Answer these questions. Who would you have hired instead of Parcells that would have been better? Who would you hire now? Or, is Parcells only the problem because he isn't doing things the way you'd do them? If that's the case, make out your application. If you're hired, I guarantee I'll be rooting for you to be successful.

I hate losing. Period. We went 6-10. Blow things up as far as I'm concerned. We might lose a good player or two. We might take a step back in the process, too. But to stick to the status quo to avoid doing anything risky or hurting anyone's feelings just doesn't float my boat. How many years of 5-11 would we have had without Parcells? Sure it could have gotten better without him. But it surely could have gotten worse, too.
I'm excited about this coming year. I'm glad to be a Boy's fan right now. I have an excitement about the change that I haven't had in a long, long time.

I remember years ago how I felt about losing Landry, Staubach, Danny White...all the old time guys who made me love football. I remember the first time I saw TD in a Bronco uniform. Same type of thing I see now. But sometimes, you have to take drastic measures and take some chances to win the gold. I have no idea how old any of you are, but Jerry and Jimmy did not ride into Dallas on white horses and offer immediate salvation to the trophy-starved Boys. The was a growing pain or two back then as well...

Give Parcells the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[Alexander]

I wasn't going to wade in here, but why not.


If Parcells is the problem, what is your answer to the problem?

The 6-10 disaster last year was still a game better that the 5-11 we had been suffering for years.

Since Parcells has arrived, we've won 14 games. With our first win this next year, we'll have caught the Campo era. With the second win, we'll have surpassed it.

We've got hope this year. We could be getting better, couldn't we?

Heck, I hate it that Ellis is mad. I hate it that sometimes the good guys don't make the team or stick around. I rooted for Dantzler as much as anyone. But I would really like to win. While I don't want to do it with just any thug off the NFL street, I don't think you build a champion by catering to the sensitivities of players who've never pushed the team over the hump.

I LOVE Ellis. Plain and simple. He's been very solid for us. But he hasn't been a difference maker. He doesn't keep DC up all night on Saturday.

So, if the point of this thread is that Parcells is the problem, you need to also offer some solution to the problem. Answer these questions. Who would you have hired instead of Parcells that would have been better? Who would you hire now? Or, is Parcells only the problem because he isn't doing things the way you'd do them? If that's the case, make out your application. If you're hired, I guarantee I'll be rooting for you to be successful.

I hate losing. Period. We went 6-10. Blow things up as far as I'm concerned. We might lose a good player or two. We might take a step back in the process, too. But to stick to the status quo to avoid doing anything risky or hurting anyone's feelings just doesn't float my boat. How many years of 5-11 would we have had without Parcells? Sure it could have gotten better without him. But it surely could have gotten worse, too.
I'm excited about this coming year. I'm glad to be a Boy's fan right now. I have an excitement about the change that I haven't had in a long, long time.

I remember years ago how I felt about losing Landry, Staubach, Danny White...all the old time guys who made me love football. I remember the first time I saw TD in a Bronco uniform. Same type of thing I see now. But sometimes, you have to take drastic measures and take some chances to win the gold. I have no idea how old any of you are, but Jerry and Jimmy did not ride into Dallas on white horses and offer immediate salvation to the trophy-starved Boys. The was a growing pain or two back then as well...

Give Parcells the benefit of the doubt here.

Excellent post, Scotsman.

 

[Charles]

You brought up the salary cap issue, incorrectly I might add, so I called you on it. In debate terms that is called scoring points with your argument.

Actually I brought up the salary cap issue to prove the point that there aren't any teams in this era (salary cap era) that are able to sustain the level that the Giants had with Parcells in the 80s'.

Comprehension skills tend to lag when one is afflicted with dumbness.........

But whatever floats your boat.

Time to quote and reply line by line, throw in a few instead of actually having a point, and maybe go back and pull a completely off topic quote or two just to further deflect attention from not having an argument.

As usual little to zero substance.....

Have a nice day BZ

 

[Charles]

I wasn't going to wade in here, but why not.


If Parcells is the problem, what is your answer to the problem?

The 6-10 disaster last year was still a game better that the 5-11 we had been suffering for years.

Since Parcells has arrived, we've won 14 games. With our first win this next year, we'll have caught the Campo era. With the second win, we'll have surpassed it.

We've got hope this year. We could be getting better, couldn't we?

Heck, I hate it that Ellis is mad. I hate it that sometimes the good guys don't make the team or stick around. I rooted for Dantzler as much as anyone. But I would really like to win. While I don't want to do it with just any thug off the NFL street, I don't think you build a champion by catering to the sensitivities of players who've never pushed the team over the hump.

I LOVE Ellis. Plain and simple. He's been very solid for us. But he hasn't been a difference maker. He doesn't keep DC up all night on Saturday.

So, if the point of this thread is that Parcells is the problem, you need to also offer some solution to the problem. Answer these questions. Who would you have hired instead of Parcells that would have been better? Who would you hire now? Or, is Parcells only the problem because he isn't doing things the way you'd do them? If that's the case, make out your application. If you're hired, I guarantee I'll be rooting for you to be successful.

I hate losing. Period. We went 6-10. Blow things up as far as I'm concerned. We might lose a good player or two. We might take a step back in the process, too. But to stick to the status quo to avoid doing anything risky or hurting anyone's feelings just doesn't float my boat. How many years of 5-11 would we have had without Parcells? Sure it could have gotten better without him. But it surely could have gotten worse, too.
I'm excited about this coming year. I'm glad to be a Boy's fan right now. I have an excitement about the change that I haven't had in a long, long time.

I remember years ago how I felt about losing Landry, Staubach, Danny White...all the old time guys who made me love football. I remember the first time I saw TD in a Bronco uniform. Same type of thing I see now. But sometimes, you have to take drastic measures and take some chances to win the gold. I have no idea how old any of you are, but Jerry and Jimmy did not ride into Dallas on white horses and offer immediate salvation to the trophy-starved Boys. The was a growing pain or two back then as well...

Give Parcells the benefit of the doubt here.

Great post

Can the mods lock this thread before BZ soils this thread with another dumb reply

 

[blindzebra]

I wasn't going to wade in here, but why not.


If Parcells is the problem, what is your answer to the problem?

The 6-10 disaster last year was still a game better that the 5-11 we had been suffering for years.

Since Parcells has arrived, we've won 14 games. With our first win this next year, we'll have caught the Campo era. With the second win, we'll have surpassed it.

We've got hope this year. We could be getting better, couldn't we?

Heck, I hate it that Ellis is mad. I hate it that sometimes the good guys don't make the team or stick around. I rooted for Dantzler as much as anyone. But I would really like to win. While I don't want to do it with just any thug off the NFL street, I don't think you build a champion by catering to the sensitivities of players who've never pushed the team over the hump.

I LOVE Ellis. Plain and simple. He's been very solid for us. But he hasn't been a difference maker. He doesn't keep DC up all night on Saturday.

So, if the point of this thread is that Parcells is the problem, you need to also offer some solution to the problem. Answer these questions. Who would you have hired instead of Parcells that would have been better? Who would you hire now? Or, is Parcells only the problem because he isn't doing things the way you'd do them? If that's the case, make out your application. If you're hired, I guarantee I'll be rooting for you to be successful.

I hate losing. Period. We went 6-10. Blow things up as far as I'm concerned. We might lose a good player or two. We might take a step back in the process, too. But to stick to the status quo to avoid doing anything risky or hurting anyone's feelings just doesn't float my boat. How many years of 5-11 would we have had without Parcells? Sure it could have gotten better without him. But it surely could have gotten worse, too.
I'm excited about this coming year. I'm glad to be a Boy's fan right now. I have an excitement about the change that I haven't had in a long, long time.

I remember years ago how I felt about losing Landry, Staubach, Danny White...all the old time guys who made me love football. I remember the first time I saw TD in a Bronco uniform. Same type of thing I see now. But sometimes, you have to take drastic measures and take some chances to win the gold. I have no idea how old any of you are, but Jerry and Jimmy did not ride into Dallas on white horses and offer immediate salvation to the trophy-starved Boys. The was a growing pain or two back then as well...

Give Parcells the benefit of the doubt here.

This is what I like, thoughtful debate, too bad some have to go right to flaming.

I would have gone with a younger coach and hired a proven GM and built it long term. Of course that is what I would do, Jerry well...

Parcells came in with the I'm too old to lose mantra, which is fine if you win a championship with that plan. We are entering year 3 with an average QB backed up by two unproven young guys, a ton of rookies on defense, possibly a new base defense and several alienated veteran players. Not exactly a can't miss scenario for those too old to lose, especially when that coach has quit on teams before he got them championships before.

We may be right back to the starting line next year.

 

[Alexander]

I would have gone with a younger coach and hired a proven GM and built it long term. Of course that is what I would do, Jerry well...

I think he was also asking what do you do right now?

Call up Houston Nutt. I am sure he would take the job and he is younger.

Parcells came in with the I'm too old to lose mantra, which is fine if you win a championship with that plan. We are entering year 3 with an average QB backed up by two unproven young guys, a ton of rookies on defense, possibly a new base defense and several alienated veteran players. Not exactly a can't miss scenario for those too old to lose, especially when that coach has quit on teams before he got them championships before.

There are times that I think people discount Mr. Jones and overstate Parcells. He is the coach. The long term plans have to be approved by the GM, which in this case is Jones. Blame one, blame them both.

We may be right back to the starting line next year.

We very well could be.

But think about it this way. Jerry Jones and someone else? Or Jerry Jones and Bill Parcells. It should not be a very tough decision.

 

[blindzebra]

I think he was also asking what do you do right now?

Call up Houston Nutt. I am sure he would take the job and he is younger.



There are times that I think people discount Mr. Jones and overstate Parcells. He is the coach. The long term plans have to be approved by the GM, which in this case is Jones. Blame one, blame them both.



We very well could be.

But think about it this way. Jerry Jones and someone else? Or Jerry Jones and Bill Parcells. It should not be a very tough decision.

There is nothing we can do now, but see how it plays out. I hope I'm wrong about this ending ugly, too.

 

[blindzebra]

Great post

Can the mods lock this thread before BZ soils this thread with another dumb reply

It would be difficult to beat this one, but thanks for adding so much quality debate to the thread.

 

[Verdict]

Well, it would have been less painful in the long run had Bill come in and immediately set about cleaning house and installing his kind of ball.

But there were reasons why he could not do what he did in NY or NE.

The whole world was watching and predicting he and Jerry would quickly be divorced. We know there had to be some courtesy calls involved, like taking the time to see what he had in both Q and Hutch. Had Tuna acted too arrogantly, or even more aggressively, the press would have built it up into a JJ-BP war from the get-go.

There was so little depth that few could be cut. It's taken three years to even make a dent at offsetting previous atrocious drafts.

Bill couldn't just dismiss '03's defensive performance, not after it's statistical superiority and the mad love affair with Zim preventing him from going to Nebraska. From Day One, Tuna was talking about not wanting to have to blitz to get a rush, about wanting backers who were both fast AND big - his usual spiels - but even a Bill Parcells couldn't have insisted on installing the 3-4 LAST offseason. He didn't have enough draft picks or the consensus it was needed. I don't see overkill in this year's draft, just a realistic assessment of what it will take to make it work..half way measures would be the worst mistake.

Tuna is still working on getting the right staff togther, and it's taken this much time to clean out the personnel dept.

A lot of reasons why a quick pre-emptive strike was not possible here. And tho the roster was not as bare as it was in New England, it was way less competitive than what he inherited in New York.

PS. On Dex. His cap numbers, not just his size or age, had a lot to do with his ticket out. He's the ONLY player Bill has allowed to walk or let go who I think folks might have a legit gripe about.

I think there are two main reasons he did not purge the roster prior to his first season. First is he did not have personal knowledge of his players' abilities. Second, the salary cap effectively precludes wholesale change in a single season. The Salary cap can help a mediocre team go from worst to first in a year, but a team with poor talent is swarely behind the 8 ball until the roster can be systematically purged year by year under the cap.

 

[Alexander]

I think there are two main reasons he did not purge the roster prior to his first season. First is he did not have personal knowledge of his players' abilities. Second, the salary cap effectively precludes wholesale change in a single season. The Salary cap can help a mediocre team go from worst to first in a year, but a team with poor talent is swarely behind the 8 ball until the roster can be systematically purged year by year under the cap.

Reason three: Who thinks Jerry Jones, a man who once considered himself the architect of the 90s Cowboy dynasty, was simply going to hand over complete control right away?

He got the best coach. That was not enough. Now he had to release the reigns even more on the personnel side of things.

If there is one thing about Mr. Jones. You can never say he is a quick learner. He usually learns things the hard way (went through three rough coaches, was too loyal to his old stars, kept trying to recreate the old Cowboys, kept getting ex-baseball players for QB, reaching in drafts).

You could say last year was hitting bottom. Bill Parcells gave the Campo dowry more than enough time and it was just a case of Jones needing it proven to him.

 

[Scotman]

This is what I like, thoughtful debate, too bad some have to go right to flaming.

I would have gone with a younger coach and hired a proven GM and built it long term. Of course that is what I would do, Jerry well...

Parcells came in with the I'm too old to lose mantra, which is fine if you win a championship with that plan. We are entering year 3 with an average QB backed up by two unproven young guys, a ton of rookies on defense, possibly a new base defense and several alienated veteran players. Not exactly a can't miss scenario for those too old to lose, especially when that coach has quit on teams before he got them championships before.

We may be right back to the starting line next year.

Ok, I'll give you that one. We're not too far apart. I do regret that the Boys no longer have a coach with long tenure like Landry. I hate that. If the option would have been to go with a true GM and a young up-and-coming- coach, there would be merit to that. But it really wasn't an option IMO. Jerry has improved as a GM in the last 10 years. Stephen has a growing impact each year and that's a good thing for the Boys.

Bill came in willing to work with Jerry. More improtantly, Jerry was willing to work with Bill (and listen some to BIll). Any young hotshot coach would have struggled here until Jerry trusted them. No small feat.

Given that Jerry is the owner right now and not Stephen, would you want another head coach?

I think you and I agree that the coach always shares some of the blame. Rightfully so. But then, he must also get the credit for success in the same dosage. If we begin winning more games and showing a trend towards long-term improvement, you must admit that Bill is doing the right thing. I will be equally willing to admint that if we continue to be mired in the muck of 5-11 or 6-10 seasons, that Bill isn't doing the right thing.

Fair enough?

 

[blindzebra]

Ok, I'll give you that one. We're not too far apart. I do regret that the Boys no longer have a coach with long tenure like Landry. I hate that. If the option would have been to go with a true GM and a young up-and-coming- coach, there would be merit to that. But it really wasn't an option IMO. Jerry has improved as a GM in the last 10 years. Stephen has a growing impact each year and that's a good thing for the Boys.

Bill came in willing to work with Jerry. More improtantly, Jerry was willing to work with Bill (and listen some to BIll). Any young hotshot coach would have struggled here until Jerry trusted them. No small feat.

Given that Jerry is the owner right now and not Stephen, would you want another head coach?

I think you and I agree that the coach always shares some of the blame. Rightfully so. But then, he must also get the credit for success in the same dosage. If we begin winning more games and showing a trend towards long-term improvement, you must admit that Bill is doing the right thing. I will be equally willing to admint that if we continue to be mired in the muck of 5-11 or 6-10 seasons, that Bill isn't doing the right thing.

Fair enough?

With Jerry as owner we will never have a perfect situation at coach, so we must look for the best fit we can.

Parcells has done some good things, and hopefully Jerry has learned a lesson or two about the draft from this experience. I just don't see Parcells finishing the job, and hopefully we will be in better shape when he leaves than when he got here.

 

[jobberone]

You guys are making a big deal out of nothing. Let's wait until training camp starts and see a few preseason games before we come to conclusions on 3-4 or 4-3, or if Greg Ellis and Parcells are at irreversible odds with each other, or if the moon is made of cheese or not...

That's what I suggested. That makes too much sense and underutilizes all that broadband out there. Can't waste that.

They're having too much fun arguing with each other. Let them have their fun. They paid for some of it.

 

[dargonking999]

That's what I suggested. That makes too much sense and underutilizes all that broadband out there. Can't waste that.

They're having too much fun arguing with each other. Let them have their fun. They paid for some of it.

and also without these big debates then this message board woudl be just like the rest, no member dull and boring, with no one talking about anything