Could Okie State leapfrog Alabama?

[Cythim]

Bullcrap. Both the computers and the human polls disagree with you. If you want to apply exclusively objective criteria, then OU, K-State and Baylor are ranked 5, 6 (tie) and 13. Arkansas, PSU and Auburn are ranked 6 (tie), 23 and unranked.

You are still using subjective data to create your rankings. The biggest flaw with the BCS and the FBS is that the schedules between Alabama and OSU are so completely different there cannot be an objective comparison made between them.

You're making yourself look silly for arguing something that both the human polls and the computer polls disagree with strongly.
And OSU beat better teams than Alabama did - at least according to every poll except your own personal one they did.

Thank you for the personal attack, I'll ask you not to do it again if you want to continue this discussion. The human polls obviously agree with me strongly because they have Alabama ranked 2nd and OSU ranked 5th.

In other sports, there's no such tiebreaker "strength of teams you lost to" but we do see "strength of victory" quite frequently. The only one hung up on that single loss here is you. The rest of us know that the teams they beat are more important than the team they lost to.

Sports that use strenght of schedule and strength of victory have at most 32 teams to compare or more than 12 games with similarites in schedules. OSU and Alabama have no similiar opponents and the opponents of their opponents are too dissimilar to compare. If I was the only one hung up on that single loss ever poll would already have OSU ranked 2nd and we would not be having this discussion.

 

[jterrell]

OKST should get the NC shot if they win.

Yes, they have one loss and to a worse team than LSU but it came the day after a major tragedy for OSU.

I have no desire to re-watch a 9-6 affair where Bama couldn't even get a field goal from the 35 yard line in OT.

I'd rather see an entertaining and fresh game than a re-played slugfest from two schools who the opponents every wrinkle.

Bama had a weaker sched than OKST and doesn't deserve some de facto re-match.

If LSU loses they probably still deserve the nod but Bama? Nope. Totally different scheds ironically.

 

[jterrell]

You are still using subjective data to create your rankings. The biggest flaw with the BCS and the FBS is that the schedules between Alabama and OSU are so completely different there cannot be an objective comparison made between them.



Thank you for the personal attack, I'll ask you not to do it again if you want to continue this discussion. The human polls obviously agree with me strongly because they have Alabama ranked 2nd and OSU ranked 5th.



Sports that use strenght of schedule and strength of victory have at most 32 teams to compare or more than 12 games with similarites in schedules. OSU and Alabama have no similiar opponents and the opponents of their opponents are too dissimilar to compare. If I was the only one hung up on that single loss ever poll would already have OSU ranked 2nd and we would not be having this discussion.

Bottom line is Bama played Kent State, Georgia Southern and North Texas in non-conference before the one quality tilt with the weak offense of Penn State.

They also didnt play the top two teams in the SEC East. They played Tennesee, Miss St, Ole Miss who combined for 3 wins total in the SEC. That is alot of garbage on the schedule by any account.

And any SEC team BENEFITS from perception of a tough SEC.

LSU played a very tough sched and deserve respect. Bama had a weak sched this yea in part by luck and in part by design.

 

[Cythim]

Bottom line is Bama played Kent State, Georgia Southern and North Texas in non-conference before the one quality tilt with the weak offense of Penn State.

They also didnt play the top two teams in the SEC East. They played Tennesee, Miss St, Ole Miss who combined for 3 wins total in the SEC. That is alot of garbage on the schedule by any account.

And any SEC team BENEFITS from perception of a tough SEC.

LSU played a very tough sched and deserve respect. Bama had a weak sched this yea in part by luck and in part by design.

The only difference in conference schedule between LSU and Alabama is one playing Vanderbilt and the other playing Kentucky. In non-conference the only difference is LSU playing Oregon and Alabama playing Georgia Southern. Oklahoma State's non-conferece schedule (Arizona, Tulsa and the Ragin Cajuns) is more like Alabama's than LSU's. Lets compare OSU and Bama team by team and see how they stack up.

LSU - Oklahoma: Easy to say Alabama wins
Arkansas - Kansas State: Another win for Bama
Penn State - Baylor: Baylor's big loss to TAMU puts them behind, another Bama win
Auburn - Missouri: The Tigers beat South Carolina on the road while the other Tigers lost to Arizona State on the road. I'm giving Bama the win
Florida - Texas: Florida had one of the toughest SEC schedules this year but finishing this season with a loss at home to Florida State causes me to push this in Texas' favor. OSU takes their first schedule victory.
Mississippi State - Texas A&M: Both teams lost to a bunch of good teams, but Miss St's best win was Kentucky while TAMU knocked off Baylor. Win goes ot OSU.

I am going to stop right bere because the rest of the teams just don't matter. Alabama's four toughest games were better than Oklahoma State's four toughest games. Add in the fact that OSU lost to a team that will probably finish the season at 6-6 and there is no way they deserve to be in ahead of Alabama. I've said before that I do not want to see the rematch, but this forum has been preaching fairness in the selection process and the only fair thing to do right now is give Alabama a rematch.

 

[tyke1doe]

Only Alabama can give LSU a challenge. LSU would blow anyone else (OSU, Stanford) away.

LSU v. Alabama for all the marbles.

 

[Rogah]

You are still using subjective data to create your rankings.

I'm not being mean but I don't think you know what the word "subjective" means. The human polls are subjective. The computers, by definition, are not.

Thank you for the personal attack, I'll ask you not to do it again if you want to continue this discussion.

I said you're making yourself look silly. If you can't handle that comment without whining, then I suggest you stop participating in this forum entirely because that comment is very tame compared to what we normally see.

The human polls obviously agree with me strongly because they have Alabama ranked 2nd and OSU ranked 5th.

Correct, because as I've stated many times the human polls are too biased against teams with recent losses. But clearly the human polls rate OSU's victories higher than Alabama's.

Sports that use strenght of schedule and strength of victory have at most 32 teams to compare or more than 12 games with similarites in schedules.

Right. And sports that use "strength of the team that beat you" as their tiebreaker are... are.... oh wait, no sport does that.

 

[Cythim]

I'm not being mean but I don't think you know what the word "subjective" means. The human polls are subjective. The computers, by definition, are not.

The computers are still subjective because humans set the criteria they use. If they were not subjective every computer would give the same result.

I said you're making yourself look silly. If you can't handle that comment without whining, then I suggest you stop participating in this forum entirely because that comment is very tame compared to what we normally see.

You attacked me to discredit my comments. Don't do it.

Correct, because as I've stated many times the human polls are too biased against teams with recent losses. But clearly the human polls rate OSU's victories higher than Alabama's.

Yuu have nothing to back either claim. An early season loss for a team like OSU could potentially be devastating in the polls. Wisconsin and Oregon lost all hope at a National Title when they lost to Michigan State and LSU early in the season. An OSU loss to Iowa State would likely have dropped them too far out of contention instead of only falling 4 spots.

The human polls also clearly rate Alabama's victories higher because Alabama was the higher rated team before they lost to LSU and after OSU lost to Iowa State. The only time OSU was higher was when they had fewer losses than Alabama.

Right. And sports that use "strength of the team that beat you" as their tiebreaker are... are.... oh wait, no sport does that.

Strength of schedule was taken out of the BCS formula because it was inaccurate. Who a team loses to is always considered in rankings, this is why Alabama only dropped behind OSU and Stanford after losing to LSU while OSU dropped four spots when losing to Iowa State. I find it hilarious that I always hear the argument that a team should not fall in the polls unless they lose yet here people are asking for Alabama to move down because the only game they've lost is to the best team in the country.

 

[Rogah]

The computers are still subjective because humans set the criteria they use. If they were not subjective every computer would give the same result.

Like I said, you just don't know what the word "subjective" means.

Yuu have nothing to back either claim. An early season loss for a team like OSU could potentially be devastating in the polls.

I have my knowledge of college football and a healthy dose of common sense. Going into yesterday's games, OSU was behind VA Tech by 2 spots in the coaches poll and 1 spot in the Harris (despite behind ahead of them by 7 spots in the compuiter polls). Suppose we took OSU and VA Tech and had them play the exact same games with the exact same results, only we moved OSU's loss to early October and VA Tech's loss to late November. Anyone who thinks OSU would still be behind VA Tech in the Harris and Coaches Poll simply has no clue whatsoever.

I bet anything that in the Harris and Coaches poll rankings we see later today, VA Tech will be at the bottom (or at the very best 2nd to last) of BCS-conference 2-loss teams. And why? Because their loss was so recent. And I bet Oklahoma and Michigan State drop to the bottom (or, at best, 2nd and 3rd to last) of BCS conference 3-loss teams for the same reason.

Strength of schedule was taken out of the BCS formula because it was inaccurate.

Every single computer uses strength of schedule in their determinations. Obviously the different systems use it different ways, and some go as far as looking at the strength of a team's opponents' opponents.

I find it hilarious that I always hear the argument that a team should not fall in the polls unless they lose

Well I've never made that argument so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Cythim]

Like I said, you just don't know what the word "subjective" means.

Are you going to back up this claim or just continue repeating it?

 

[Rogah]

Are you going to back up this claim or just continue repeating it?

What is there to back up? I know what "subjective" versus "objective" means whereas your usage of those terms shows you don't. Beyond that we're just going to have to agree to disagree and I'm done discussing this particular point. Since you're the type that always has to have the last word, go for it....

 

[Cythim]

What is there to back up? I know what "subjective" versus "objective" means whereas your usage of those terms shows you don't. Beyond that we're just going to have to agree to disagree and I'm done discussing this particular point. Since you're the type that always has to have the last word, go for it....

That is the response I expected from you, you can't back it up and refuse to continue the discussion because you know you've hit a dead end. This is what happens when you attack the person and not the idea.

The very nature of a poll, making a judgment based on opinion, is very clearly subjective. Even computers are using opinion because the programmer has to decide what to include in the judgment and how much weight to give it.