Could You Be Talked Into Vontaze Burfict and Melvin Ingram?

[Hoofbite]

I don't really care for Burfict's attitude.

I didn't even know who he was a while back so I checked out some videos of him.

He looks to be a hell of a player but he also looks to be a huge d-bag. Always posturing up and asserting his "toughness".

He likes to get up off the ground after making a tackle and step over the guy he just tackled.

He just seems like a headache for both the team he is playing against and the team he is playing for.

His antics remind me of LaRon Landry. Make a hard tackle 7 yards down field on 1st down, get up and start strutting and posing. Almost like he thinks he just made a tackle for loss.

Burfict will probably come in, rely too heavily on his ability and end up drawing stupid flags and making as many stupid mistakes as he does good plays.

Seems like a hell of an athlete but also seems undisciplined.

 

[realtick]

I don't really care for Burfict's attitude.

I didn't even know who he was a while back so I checked out some videos of him.

He looks to be a hell of a player but he also looks to be a huge d-bag. Always posturing up and asserting his "toughness".

He likes to get up off the ground after making a tackle and step over the guy he just tackled.

He just seems like a headache for both the team he is playing against and the team he is playing for.

His antics remind me of LaRon Landry. Make a hard tackle 7 yards down field on 1st down, get up and start strutting and posing. Almost like he thinks he just made a tackle for loss.

Burfict will probably come in, rely too heavily on his ability and end up drawing stupid flags and making as many stupid mistakes as he does good plays.

Seems like a hell of an athlete but also seems undisciplined.

Burfict has some well known maturity issues, but from all accounts he's done some growing up and is playing under control this season.

I think you can insulate and temper some of those traits on a veteran team. You wouldn't want to put him on a young rebuilding team. I think he would do well on a team like ours with solid veteran presence in Ware, Spears and Ratliff. Playing next to a guy like Sean Lee doesn't hurt either.

 

[MarionBarberThe4th]

That's exactly what I love about him. He scares guys and gets in their heads.

He reminds me of a less disciplined, but way more athletic james Harrison. he's going to be a very well known player for his style.

31 fan bases are going to hate him.

 

[BAT]

Burfict has some well known maturity issues, but from all accounts he's done some growing up and is playing under control this season.

I think you can insulate and temper some of those traits on a veteran team. You wouldn't want to put him on a young rebuilding team. I think he would do well on a team like ours with solid veteran presence in Ware, Spears and Ratliff. Playing next to a guy like Sean Lee doesn't hurt either.

THIS is the reason Ray Lewis dropped the year he came out too.

 

[realtick]

That's exactly what I love about him. He scares guys and gets in their heads.

He reminds me of a less disciplined, but way more athletic james Harrison. he's going to be a very well known player for his style.

31 fan bases are going to hate him.

I agree this team needs a dose of aggression and nastiness. It's football; I want offensive players to have a player like Burfict in the back of the minds.

 

[MarionBarberThe4th]

Not a classic performance. He did show at times that hes more interested in contact than just about anything.

He did show good speed in chasing their athletes, but they spread it out so much it was tough for him to show-off. I thought his personal foul was purely rep. The kid barely stepped out of bounds and kept running.

 

[Dough Boy]

I'm not that enamored with Melvin Ingram.

have you seen him play. He had 9 sacks last year. Is the best defensive player thus far in the SEC. I think he has scored 3 TD's thus far. He plays DT & DE and came to SC as a LB. He is just a football player.

 

[realtick]

have you seen him play. He had 9 sacks last year. Is the best defensive player thus far in the SEC. I think he has scored 3 TD's thus far. He plays DT & DE and came to SC as a LB. He is just a football player.

Yeah I've seen him play. Have you? Are you just looking at a statsheet and his college bio?

My comments were focused on how he projects as a prospect, not how he is currently playing as a college player.

 

[Dough Boy]

Yeah I've seen him play. Have you? Are you just looking at a statsheet and his college bio?

My comments were focused on how he projects as a prospect, not how he is currently playing as a college player.

My wife is an alum. I've watched every game his played at SC. EVERY GAME.

He projects as an athletic freak at the next level. Again, how many 276lbs def lineman are on their teams 'all hands team' for onside kicks.

He is very quick footed and could play multiple positions. I think he is too small to play DT at the next level. He could play OLB in a 3-4 or DE in a 4-3. He could also project as an ILB in a 3-4 in the Levon Kirkland or Trotter (Philly) role as a down hill sledge hammer. I think his best position is going to be OLB in a 3-4. I think in a scheme that runs multiple fronts (i.e., Dallas, NE, Jets, Baltimore) he will only be limited by the Def Coord imagination. He can play anywhere along the long and is great at dropping back into coverage.

I've not seen many big mean with his pure athleticism. His fake punt run for a TD was as good as any you will see. What 270lb players hurtles a man, and races 60 yards for a TD?

That's how I think he projects as a pro. Again, I've watched every game his played. Not read some bio or stat sheet.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

We already have two high picks invested at ILB.

We aren't going to use another.

and honestly, he isn't the elite talent that some believe he is. he gets called for too many personal foul hits, over pursues in the run game and isn't a sure tackler.

he's a late first/early second round talent right now.

 

[realtick]

My wife is an alum. I've watched every game his played at SC. EVERY GAME.

He projects as an athletic freak at the next level. Again, how many 276lbs def lineman are on their teams 'all hands team' for onside kicks.

He is very quick footed and could play multiple positions. I think he is too small to play DT at the next level. He could play OLB in a 3-4 or DE in a 4-3. He could also project as an ILB in a 3-4 in the Levon Kirkland or Trotter (Philly) role as a down hill sledge hammer. I think his best position is going to be OLB in a 3-4. I think in a scheme that runs multiple fronts (i.e., Dallas, NE, Jets, Baltimore) he will only be limited by the Def Coord imagination. He can play anywhere along the long and is great at dropping back into coverage.

I've not seen many big mean with his pure athleticism. His fake punt run for a TD was as good as any you will see. What 270lb players hurtles a man, and races 60 yards for a TD?

That's how I think he projects as a pro. Again, I've watched every game his played. Not read some bio or stat sheet.

Well, that's great. That's your analysis on him. So what is your beef with my take other than I'm not salivating over him as you are? Our takes aren't that much different.

He's playing at around 280 lbs (listed at 278) predominantly at DE with his hand on the ground. At that spot and at that weight he's quicker than your typical college offensive linemen, as he should be at that weight/size.

Again...If he comes out for the draft and his size is the same (6'2" 280 lbs), he'll be truely a tweener. He's pretty quick for a lineman, but if you're trying to project him as is to OLB, I don't see the type of dynamic speed/quickness/athleticism needed for the move.

I think his best move would be to drop down into the high 250s/low 260s range ala Lamar Woodley. I think he projects a lot better as an OLB at that size than trying to max out his frame and playing as a DE at the next level.

Interestingly, with his hand on the ground, he's slow off the snap (see video below). Again, I think he's best standing up, dropping some weight and moving to OLB in a 34.

[youtube]iN0qbLJK9ro[/youtube]

 

[Dough Boy]

Well, that's great. That's your analysis on him. So what is your beef with my take other than I'm not salivating over him as you are? Our takes aren't that much different.

He's playing at around 280 lbs (listed at 278) predominantly at DE with his hand on the ground. At that spot and at that weight he's quicker than your typical college offensive linemen, as he should be at that weight/size.

Again...If he comes out for the draft and his size is the same (6'2" 280 lbs), he'll be truely a tweener. He's pretty quick for a lineman, but if you're trying to project him as is to OLB, I don't see the type of dynamic speed/quickness/athleticism needed for the move.

I think his best move would be to drop down into the high 250s/low 260s range ala Lamar Woodley. I think he projects a lot better as an OLB at that size than trying to max out his frame and playing as a DE at the next level.

Interestingly, with his hand on the ground, he's slow off the snap (see video below). Again, I think he's best standing up, dropping some weight and moving to OLB in a 34.

[youtube]iN0qbLJK9ro[/youtube]

Here is a point that you made to me that you should attempt to apply to yourself. You have one clip where he gets off the ball slow and you want to use that to justify your "slow off the snap" deal.

Unlike you, I've watched every game he's played and I can assure you of this, you are the only 'Scout' in the world that would say he is slow off the snap. Instead of going off bio's and stats and youtube vids, try watching the kid play.

2. DE Melvin Ingram: South Carolina (6-2, 271)
A shorter, compact defender with a long set of arms, an explosive pop into contact and knows how to get after the quarterback in a number of ways. Plays fast in tight quarters and possesses an impressive pass-rushing repertoire.

 

[Dough Boy]

Well, that's great. That's your analysis on him. So what is your beef with my take other than I'm not salivating over him as you are? Our takes aren't that much different.

[quote = Draft Soup]
Player Name: Melvin Ingram

Position: Defensive End

School: South Carolina

Height: 6’2

Weight: 276

Melvin Ingram is getting his first taste at consistent starting action for the Gamecocks in 2011, and he’s making a huge impact.

He was a reserve linebacker as a freshman, and then lost had to redshirt his sophomore season after breaking his foot in an off-field incident.

As a junior he played linebacker and defensive end, but only started one game. However, despite not starting he still registered nine sacks.

Strengths
Ingram is an incredible athlete who has solid straight line speed to match above average strength. Ingram’s athleticism allows him to be versatile as he’s played linebacker, defensive end, and defensive tackle.

He has a quick first step when pass rushing, and has a decent arsenal of pass rush moves, including a spin and rip then swim.His awareness is fantastic as he always knows where the football is, and his high motor allows him to find it and make a play. He does a nice job in contain, and caps the end in run plays, forcing the play inside.

Weaknesses

Ingram is sometimes over zealous when making a play and outruns it, or over plays it. He will sometimes miss and opportunity to take down the quarterback by not wrapping up.

He needs to break down in open space and make a tackle. Ingram has been prone to arm tackles, and he won’t get away with that at the next level.

Ingram needs to be more confident in his bull rush, but getting more strength will also help. Too often does he try and “juke” his opposition and will get shut down.

Only above average strength hurts him as he’s prone to getting blocked by tight ends, and pushed out of the play. I’d also like to see Ingram play with more of a mean streak and ruthlessness.

Overall

Ingram’s overall ability and potential is fantastic, and he could become an elite pass rusher with better technique and strength at the next level.

His size is similar to former Michigan and current Pittsburgh Steelers standout Lamar Woodley. His pass rushing ability is somewhat comparable as well, although Woodley was a bit more ruthless.

Ingram has first round talent, and will have to put on a show at the combine to get there. Look for him to be one of the most hyped players going into the 2012 NFL Draft assuming he continues his streak of big plays for the Gamecocks.

[/QUOTE]

 

[realtick]

Here is a point that you made to me that you should attempt to apply to yourself. You have one clip where he gets off the ball slow and you want to use that to justify your "slow off the snap" deal.

Unlike you, I've watched every game he's played and I can assure you of this, you are the only 'Scout' in the world that would say he is slow off the
snap. Instead of going off bio's and stats and youtube vids, try watching the kid play.

"Try watching the kid play?" Loooool, I have watched the kid play in full games (I have one of his games on DVR as a matter of fact) and just provided some footage of him being slow off the snap.

You want to show me printed words as if that's proof, loooool.

Hilarious.

I've given you actual clips of his play (both the good and bad) that show him repeatedly coming slow off the snap.

Do you want to debate what you're seeing in the clips? Or, do you find more comfort in printed words than what's happening on the field?

I could show you "scouting reports" of Bobby Carpenter that made him seem like a future HOF.

 

[realtick]

[quote = Draft Soup]
Player Name: Melvin Ingram

He has a quick first step when pass rushing, and has a decent arsenal of pass rush moves, including a spin and rip then swim.

Looool, fantastic!!!

Now, let's talk about what's actually being shown on the field.

I didn't even rewatch the same clip all the way through, but look at him coming off the snap at the :01, :36 and :45 second marks.

 

[Dough Boy]

WOW!!!!!! One whole game.

I can't watch your video at work. But I don't need to watch it, I've seen him play more than one game.

You should not be so high on yourself; you are looking very immature right now. I've watched him play. Live. I've watched him since his freshman year. I provided a scouting report that verified what my eyes saw. I didn't need the report as I've seen him play more than one game.

I'm not into internet sparing, so we can agree to disagree.

 

[realtick]

WOW!!!!!! One whole game.

I can't watch your video at work. But I don't need to watch it, I've seen him play more than one game.

You should not be so high on yourself; you are looking very immature right now. I've watched him play. Live. I've watched him since his freshman year. I provided a scouting report that verified what my eyes saw. I didn't need the report as I've seen him play more than one game.

I'm not into internet sparing, so we can agree to disagree.

Lol, yes, I'm being "immature," so says the guy who has forwarded me a random "scouting" report and appeals to "trust me, I've seen him play."

Guess what? I've seen him play too. There is also video available for everyone to see of him on the web.

I've provided time stamps to highlight exactly what I'm talking about. Now, I understand you can't watch them at work but you're being ignorant if you want to just appeal to your own authority without even looking at the evidence provided.

 

[Dough Boy]

Lol, yes, I'm being "immature," so says the guy who has forwarded me a random "scouting" report and appeals to "trust me, I've seen him play."

Guess what? I've seen him play too. There is also video available for everyone to see of him on the web.

I've provided time stamps to highlight exactly what I'm talking about. Now, I understand you can't watch them at work but you're being ignorant if you want to just appeal to your own authority without even looking at the evidence provided.

Well ignorant is the wrong choice of words. Ignorant refers to a lack of knowledge. I think you mean stubborn. And I've been called that before so no harm on that. I will watch it when I get home from work.

I still think you are missing my point. I will concede that you will find plays where he is slow off the snap. You will find plays where Ware is slow off the snap. My point, if you follow his career you will not conclude he is slow off the ball. You will deduce that those plays are the exception and not the rule. If a guy has 300 plays over the course of the year and he is slow outbthe gate on 10, would you conclude he is slow off the ball? Of course not. I've seen enough plays from him to know he is not slow out the gate.

 

[realtick]

Well ignorant is the wrong choice of words. Ignorant refers to a lack of knowledge. I think you mean stubborn. And I've been called that before so no harm on that. I will watch it when I get home from work.

I still think you are missing my point. I will concede that you will find plays where he is slow off the snap. You will find plays where Ware is slow off the snap. My point, if you follow his career you will not conclude he is slow off the ball. You will deduce that those plays are the exception and not the rule. If a guy has 300 plays over the course of the year and he is slow outbthe gate on 10, would you conclude he is slow off the ball? Of course not. I've seen enough plays from him to know he is not slow out the gate.

Ignorance is also a state of being without knowledge. And if you're willfully ignoring evidence contrary to your claims, you're being ignorant. Sorry, but it appeared like you just wanted to lean upon your "I've watched every game, so that trumps anything you say..." argument instead of even looking at the examples I gave you.

That's not name calling, that's just a descriptive term.

Anyways, the plays I gave you are out of one game, Alabama vs. South Carolina: :01, :36, :45, 1:34, 1:46 and 2:40 marks.

That's just in one game, not 10 plays out of 300! That doesn't mean he's slow off the snap in general. It does mean that he can be slow off the snap. Let me tell too, in the examples I gave it's dramatically slow. And no, you can attempt to drag D. Ware into this, but D. Ware is never slow off the snap at least six times in one game.

 

[Dough Boy]

Ignorance is also a state of being without knowledge. And if you're willfully ignoring evidence contrary to your claims, you're being ignorant. Sorry, but it appeared like you just wanted to lean upon your "I've watched every game, so that trumps anything you say..." argument instead of even looking at the examples I gave you.

That's not name calling, that's just a descriptive term.

Anyways, the plays I gave you are out of one game, Alabama vs. South Carolina: :01, :36, :45, 1:34, 1:46 and 2:40 marks.

That's just in one game, not 10 plays out of 300! That doesn't mean he's slow off the snap in general. It does mean that he can be slow off the snap. Let me tell too, in the examples I gave it's dramatically slow. And no, you can attempt to drag D. Ware into this, but D. Ware is never slow off the snap at least six times in one game.

I’m not going to agree to your definition of ignorant. Being ignorant is not a bad thing; it just means that you do not have sufficient knowledge in a particular area. There are many things I'm ignorant about. I can't understand the tax code; the use of the AMT baffles me. I argue over language and its use everyday at work. I don't view this site for anything work related!!!

I did watch your video. He was very slow of the ball on plays that you mentioned. What you did not mention was that a few of those plays where he was slow off the ball, he still registered a sack.

Looking at those plays, I could see how someone who only watched that game would conclude he was slow of the snap. I guess I have the vantage point of watching more than one game and come to a different conclusion. I would also point out that those plays and I'm wondering have you recorded any games this year and if you have, have you seen a similar habit of him coming off the ball late. I've watched live games, but have not focused on this aspect of his game.

Last thing, you totally missed my D. Ware interjection.