Cowboys Sacred Cows

[Proximo]

I'm trying to keep this about Witten and his fans but you insist on making this about me and insults.

Nah, I was just trying to help you properly understand how to quantify and analyze the "rate" at which any player does anything....which you clearly needed some help on.

 

[robjay04]

Smh. Ok professor, if you say so it must be true.

It is absolutely true. You restructure someone throughout their career to the point where their base salary is peanuts, eventually you have to pay him the money that you owe him. His cap hit this year isn't because of his contract as much as it's by team design.

Complain about the cap strategy Dallas uses, complaining about his base contract at this point is just not a withstanding argument considering the fact he was underpaid in 2013, 2015 and 2016 to make room...now you have to pay him what he's due.

 

[robjay04]

Nah, I was just trying to help you properly understand how to quantify and analyze the "rate" at which any player does anything....which you clearly needed some help on.

I was pretty confused for a minute here. I was thinking you were talking to yourself but I guess I blocked whoever you are talking to.

I guess it was for good reason.

 

[JoeKing]

Nah, I was just trying to help you properly understand how to quantify and analyze the "rate" at which any player does anything....which you clearly needed some help on.

Thanks so very much.

 

[xwalker]

It is absolutely true. You restructure someone throughout their career to the point where their base salary is peanuts, eventually you have to pay him the money that you owe him. His cap hit this year isn't because of his contract as much as it's by team design.

Complain about the cap strategy Dallas uses, complaining about his base contract at this point is just not a withstanding argument considering the fact he was underpaid in 2013, 2015 and 2016 to make room...now you have to pay him what he's due.

They don't owe the player that money. The prorated money that shows up as a cap hit is money that the player has already received.

That extra cap hit can be offset by restructuring another players contract to push money into future years. Once that players money builds up they can restructure another players contact in the future to offset that. It never actually catches up to the team, because there is always money pushed into the future.

If you could get a 100K interest free 1-year loan and you were able to get a new loan for the same amount every year to payoff the previous loan, then you would never actually have to pay the money back. In reality loans have interest which makes that impossible, but there is no interest on money pushed forward under the salary cap.

 

[robjay04]

They don't owe the player that money. The prorated money that shows up as a cap hit is money that the player has already received.

That extra cap hit can be offset by restructuring another players contract to push money into future years. Once that players money builds up they can restructure another players contact in the future to offset that. It never actually catches up to the team, because there is always money pushed into the future.

If you could get a 100K interest free 1-year loan and you were able to get a new loan for the same amount every year to payoff the previous loan, then you would never actually have to pay the money back. In reality loans have interest which makes that impossible, but there is no interest on money pushed forward under the salary cap.

I know how the process works(I don't like how the Cowboys do it because I don't care for balloon loans but that is for another thread). The guy is saying the Jason Witten is not worth his base salary today. I am trying to explain, without much success, is that his base salary is so high today by design, not because of the original deal.

Absolutely Jason Witten is not worth his base salary but it is that high only because he played at a near minimum base salary for half of his contract. Now that he is in his final year, there is no way to shift money around to lower his cap number like we have done in the past. I don't know how to find his original breakdown of his contract but I would imagine that it looks nothing like how it was actually paid.

It is like someone signing up for a car loan with a balloon payment and then complaining that the final payment being a bad value. Absolutely you are paying bad value with that final payment but you were not complaining about the lower payments throughout the entire contract. I know there are more factors that come into place, I just feel that is a good example for someone complains about a restructured contract in the final year.

 

[xwalker]

I think the piss poor standard that the Cowboys have had historically is one of the reasons for our lack of success.. Gregory is a good example of that.

The Patriots don't have the best players, per se, but they are generally smart football players and are consistent at what they do.

IsEdelman as good as Dez athletically? Hell no. But he is a better football player in some areas including effort, consistency ad football IQ. He is a more precise route runner. That makes up to some degree for the difference in physical ability between Dez and Edelman.

I do think Red Ball is trying to move the team in that direction. But a pick on a guy like Gregory is not in line with that way of thinking. It is wild catting hoping to hit a gusher.

I would hold the standard, but I would not pay a premium for it. I would just draft according to the standard I want to uphold. And no I do not think Witten or Dez and several others are worth their current salary, or overall cap hit.

Great point about the Patriots and Edelman compared to Dez. It is very obvious that the Patriots put a high value on football IQ, especially at WR. The Cowboys coaches would like to do that also, but the front office has not managed to make it happens across the board. Beasley and Witten are super high football IQ guys. TWill is in the middle ground and puts in the effort to study the scheme, film etc. but does not have the natural smarts/instincts of Beasley/Witten. Dez is obviously the opposite of the Patriots receivers with a low football IQ.

Hopefully in the draft or free agency, the Cowboy find WRs with high football IQs. You can have guys with lower football IQs at some positions, but WR is not a good place for low F-IQ guys.

I will disagree to some extent on Gregory. Low football IQ is not really his problem. His issues are off-field (drugs, anxiety disorder, etc.). He is actually very intelligent. Jerry said that he had the highest SAT score of any player that they've drafted. Gregory comes across as very intelligent in interviews.

 

[Proximo]

I was pretty confused for a minute here. I was thinking you were talking to yourself but I guess I blocked whoever you are talking to.

I guess it was for good reason.

Indeed it was. No doubt about that.

 

[robjay04]

Great point about the Patriots and Edelman compared to Dez. It is very obvious that the Patriots put a high value on football IQ, especially at WR. The Cowboys coaches would like to do that also, but the front office has not managed to make it happens across the board. Beasley and Witten are super high football IQ guys. TWill is in the middle ground and puts in the effort to study the scheme, film etc. but does not have the natural smarts/instincts of Beasley/Witten. Dez is obviously the opposite of the Patriots receivers with a low football IQ.

Hopefully in the draft or free agency, the Cowboy find WRs with high football IQs. You can have guys with lower football IQs at some positions, but WR is not a good place for low F-IQ guys.

I will disagree to some extent on Gregory. Low football IQ is not really his problem. His issues are off-field (drugs, anxiety disorder, etc.). He is actually very intelligent. Jerry said that he had the highest SAT score of any player that they've drafted. Gregory comes across as very intelligent in interviews.

I think you need a mix of both with the receiving core and I think the Pats know that.

The best Patriots team of all time, in my opinion, is the team that had Randy Moss. Even though they lost in the Super Bowl, Moss brought another element to that offense. Moss was known for being a one trick pony who didn't always have the best effort, they tried to do the same thing with Ocho Cinco but that didn't work out. Even today, Gronk strikes me as a guy that relies more on his raw talent than his actual football IQ, same with Bennett. I think the Patriots know you need a group of those smart players to move the chains and give your QB a safety valve but you also need a couple players with overbearing physical gifts to put you over the top.

Larry Fitzgerald has both, he would've been an awesome Patriot.

Regardless, I don't think our the Patriot's offensive philosophy is much better, if at all, than ours. Their defensive scheme over the years has been though.

 

[xwalker]

Smh. Ok professor, if you say so it must be true.

I know how the process works(I don't like how the Cowboys do it because I don't care for balloon loans but that is for another thread). The guy is saying the Jason Witten is not worth his base salary today. I am trying to explain, without much success, is that his base salary is so high today by design, not because of the original deal.

Absolutely Jason Witten is not worth his base salary but it is that high only because he played at a near minimum base salary for half of his contract. Now that he is in his final year, there is no way to shift money around to lower his cap number like we have done in the past. I don't know how to find his original breakdown of his contract but I would imagine that it looks nothing like how it was actually paid.

It is like someone signing up for a car loan with a balloon payment and then complaining that the final payment being a bad value. Absolutely you are paying bad value with that final payment but you were not complaining about the lower payments throughout the entire contract. I know there are more factors that come into place, I just feel that is a good example for someone complains about a restructured contract in the final year.

Witten signed a 5-year, 37M contract with 2017 being the final year. He have received all of the 37M except for the 7.4M that is his scheduled base salary for 2017. His average pay over the first 4 years was 7.4M ( (37M-7.4M)/4) which also happens to be his salary for 2017.

His 2017 salary of 7.4M is not more than previous years because of restructuring. His 2017 cap hit (12.2M) is indeed more because of restructuring.

The extra cap hit money above his 7.4M salary is money has already been paid and was part of his previous years average pay of 7.4M per year. At this point only his base salary of 7.4M has any bearing on his value relative to what he is getting paid. Obviously, he was a better value at 7.4M per when he was younger than he is now; however, the Cowboys don't have a replacement for him. Also, he is a team leader and savvy veteran to have in the huddle with a very young QB and RB. They do need to find his replacement, but until that happens, they need to keep him. Unfortunately, the only other skill position offensive player that you might call a savvy veteran is Beasley and as a slot WR that does not play all the snaps. Also, a 5-8 non-Pro Bowl type guy probably doesn't have a big influence on the huddle anyway.

Paying 7.4M for 1 year is not a big deal for a savvy veteran, team leader, especially when you have a very young QB and RB and none of the other skill position players are savvy veterans. If his salary was 13M like Dez, then that gets into the price range where you can't keep the player unless he is a top producer.

 

[xwalker]

I think you need a mix of both with the receiving core and I think the Pats know that.

The best Patriots team of all time, in my opinion, is the team that had Randy Moss. Even though they lost in the Super Bowl, Moss brought another element to that offense. Moss was known for being a one trick pony who didn't always have the best effort, they tried to do the same thing with Ocho Cinco but that didn't work out. Even today, Gronk strikes me as a guy that relies more on his raw talent than his actual football IQ, same with Bennett. I think the Patriots know you need a group of those smart players to move the chains and give your QB a safety valve but you also need a couple players with overbearing physical gifts to put you over the top.

Larry Fitzgerald has both, he would've been an awesome Patriot.

Regardless, I don't think our the Patriot's offensive philosophy is much better, if at all, than ours. Their defensive scheme over the years has been though.

Yes, I don't know how to compare the philosophy of different teams per se.

My main take is that the Patriots WRs showed that high football IQ for WRs is a really great asset. When the Cowboys look for WRs in the draft or FA, I'm more concerned about football IQ than I might have been years ago. It's really difficult for us as fans to know the true football IQ of players in the draft. From a fan perspective it would be difficult to discern the difference in football IQ of Michael Irvin as compared to Dez when they were in college; however, now that we've know both so well, it's obvious that Irvin's had a drastically higher football IQ than Dez.

I think Randy Moss had a higher football IQ than it might seem. Beasley studied and worked out with Moss last off-season and was said to have learned a lot.

It's similar with Gronk. He comes across as a partying dummy, but I think his football IQ and football work habits are better than you might expect. It has been reported they he lives on endorsement money and does not spend any of his football salary. That indicates that he is smarter than he looks, but then again almost everyone on the planet is smarter then he looks.

I was a big fan of Cordarrelle Patterson in the draft a few years ago, but he has failed to live up to his ability because he has a low football IQ according to many reports.

 

[robjay04]

Witten signed a 5-year, 37M contract with 2017 being the final year. He have received all of the 37M except for the 7.4M that is his scheduled base salary for 2017. His average pay over the first 4 years was 7.4M ( (37M-7.4M)/4) which also happens to be his salary for 2017.

His 2017 salary of 7.4M is not more than previous years because of restructuring. His 2017 cap hit (12.2M) is indeed more because of restructuring.

The extra cap hit money above his 7.4M salary is money has already been paid and was part of his previous years average pay of 7.4M per year. At this point only his base salary of 7.4M has any bearing on his value relative to what he is getting paid. Obviously, he was a better value at 7.4M per when he was younger than he is now; however, the Cowboys don't have a replacement for him. Also, he is a team leader and savvy veteran to have in the huddle with a very young QB and RB. They do need to find his replacement, but until that happens, they need to keep him. Unfortunately, the only other skill position offensive player that you might call a savvy veteran is Beasley and as a slot WR that does not play all the snaps. Also, a 5-8 non-Pro Bowl type guy probably doesn't have a big influence on the huddle anyway.

Paying 7.4M for 1 year is not a big deal for a savvy veteran, team leader, especially when you have a very young QB and RB and none of the other skill position players are savvy veterans. If his salary was 13M like Dez, then that gets into the price range where you can't keep the player unless he is a top producer.

I stand corrected. I figured his base salary was higher as well due to the restructures.

Regardless I agree with your premise. It's pointless to complain about a player that has performed very well over the duration of his contract just because his final year is inflated partially by team design. You can complain about a contract when it's signed or after 2 seasons and they fail to come close to their pay grade(Tyrone Crawford).

 

[casmith07]

LOL wut?

Stopped reading right there.

Using the name Dez Bryant and the words "immune from criticism" in the same sentence is LAUGHABLE.

He is easily one the most polarizing and heavily criticized Cowboys "stars" since he was drafted. Especially on this board.

Sacred cow? Far from it.

Was going to post the same thing. People around here crush Dez on a regular basis.

 

[ActualCowboysFan]

He was called for a whopping 5 penalties in 2016, cut him immediately!

Constant bro. Some dude who thought Zeke was going to suck said so.