Cowboys Sacred Cows

[Verdict]

It's pretty easy. You pay Gronk just shy of a million dollars a game for his production. You pay Witten 7.4 million per year for his.

The argument is the same argument that I have been
making the whole time. They essentially play different roles on their team. Witten is the player who you want to move the chains, Gronk is who you want if you need a big play. Fact is, Dez gives our offense what Gronk gives to New England. It's not like our offense in general is lacking because of Witten.

If you don't think that Gronk moves the chains more effectively than Witten I don't think you are being remotely realistic.

 

[LocimusPrime]

Currently
Gronk > Wiiten

Careers if the both stopped playing today
Witten > Gronk

Careers if Gronk plays another 4-5 years
Gronk > Wiiten

If you are GM and starting a team today:
Gronk > Wiiten

If you looking for an Albertsons discount 10% on Cowboys Sunday's
Witten > Gronk

 

[LandryFan]

Sacred cow.

If one wants to say JW is old and slow and not worth his contract or that so and so is better, that's fine with me. I may even agree with him on that opinion. But when that person starts throwing out bogus penalty "rates" to back his opinion and clearly doesn't understand the concept of comparable rates, I'll disagree. I would feel that way regardless of whether you're talking about Witten or the bottom of the roster guy. That's all really. Witten isn't a sacred cow, IMO...give me a half decent draft pick for him and I'll strongly consider letting you have him. The people on this site go overboard on wanting to label every poster either as a "homer" or a "hater" and every player as "sacred" or a "stiff". Most of the time, none of that applies when you get right down to it, but that doesn't stop people from trying to make it apply.

 

[robjay04]

If you don't think that Gronk moves the chains more effectively than Witten I don't think you are being remotely realistic.

Witten has what...100 more catches? If you judge the whole 5 years, you would be in denial to say Gronk moves the chains as effectively as Witten has. It's really not even close over the whole 5 years...that's ok though, Patriots rely on their receivers more to move the chains, they rely on Gronk more when they need touchdowns.

I'm done with this argument. I've made my case. Based on his availability, production and intangibles---Jason Witten was worth every penny of his contract. If you want to make threads comparing Crawford's contract to Suh then fine. You are comparing a very good, durable leader to this team to a great player that makes more but can't stay healthy---and saying Witten is a bad value.

If anything, Gronk may be underpaid a bit but since he can't stay on the field...you're paying a million per game so it seems about right.

I love Gronk as a player but I'll defend Witten to the death. They don't make players like that anymore and he has earned every penny of his contract.

 

[Verdict]

I get that you're not comparing Witten to Gronk talent-wise, but rather that you're looking at value. I just don't think you're seeing the flipside of the this.

Witten earns $7.4M avg. annually and Gronk gets $9M avg. annually. Those numbers are relatively close.

It could easily be argued that looking at their relatively similar/close annual average salaries that based off production, Witten is either overpaid or Gronk is underpaid. It would be a much different argument if Gronk was earning $14-15M per season.

If one wants to say JW is old and slow and not worth his contract or that so and so is better, that's fine with me. I may even agree with him on that opinion. But when that person starts throwing out bogus penalty "rates" to back his opinion and clearly doesn't understand the concept of comparable rates, I'll disagree. I would feel that way regardless of whether you're talking about Witten or the bottom of the roster guy. That's all really. Witten isn't a sacred cow, IMO...give me a half decent draft pick for him and I'll strongly consider letting you have him. The people on this site go overboard on wanting to label every poster either as a "homer" or a "hater" and every player as "sacred" or a "stiff". Most of the time, none of that applies when you get right down to it, but that doesn't stop people from trying to make it apply.

If that is your perception, my guess is that you don't look at Witten much differently than I do. He is still a good player, valuable, and who can still contribute to this organization, but who is ALSO overpaid relative to our overall cap.

I disagree with your assessment about how many people here view their sacred cow, Jason Witten. There are many people on this board who think Jason Witten is above criticism, that however much of the cap he takes up is fine and that it is equivalent to blasphemy for any complaint at all about him to be voiced in the slightest manner. Moreover many of those same people believe he should be able to play as long as he wants to at whatever salary he asks for because they think he has "earned that right". Those same people will be clammoring for us to extend Witten long term for whatever he asks for because we need to "pay the man" .

You are probably realistic. Many on this board are not remotely realistic, nor objective.

 

[Trendnet]

Careers if Gronk plays another 4-5 years
Gronk > Wiiten

Currently Gronk is 118 catches behind Witten at this respective point in their careers. Gronkowski hasn't played a full season since 2011.

Yea, no. Gronkowski won't surpass Witten at any point.

 

[Verdict]

Currently Gronk is 118 catches behind Witten at this respective point in their careers. Gronkowski hasn't played a full season since 2011.

Yea, no. Gronkowski won't surpass Witten at any point.

I would assume that the touchdown rate and average length of pass would favor Gronk significantly.

 

[LandryFan]

Witten has what...100 more catches? If you judge the whole 5 years, you would be in denial to say Gronk moves the chains as effectively as Witten has. It's really not even close over the whole 5 years...that's ok though, Patriots rely on their receivers more to move the chains, they rely on Gronk more when they need touchdowns.

I'm done with this argument. I've made my case. Based on his availability, production and intangibles---Jason Witten was worth every penny of his contract. If you want to make threads comparing Crawford's contract to Suh then fine. You are comparing a very good, durable leader to this team to a great player that makes more but can't stay healthy---and saying Witten is a bad value.

If anything, Gronk may be underpaid a bit but since he can't stay on the field...you're paying a million per game so it seems about right.

I love Gronk as a player but I'll defend Witten to the death. They don't make players like that anymore and he has earned every penny of his contract.

Maybe I don't understand the concept of "sacred cow", but just for the record: If a "sacred cow" player is defined as a player that has played his heart out, given everything he has every day, practices what he preaches and leads by example, all while compiling some all-time great stats at his position and is a player that any fan can be proud to claim as one of theirs, then yes, he is a "sacred cow". He will very likely be in the HOF and most certainly will be in the ROH. He may be old and slow, but he's an inspiring team leader and still presents significant value to the team.

 

[Verdict]

Witten has what...100 more catches? If you judge the whole 5 years, you would be in denial to say Gronk moves the chains as effectively as Witten has. It's really not even close over the whole 5 years...that's ok though, Patriots rely on their receivers more to move the chains, they rely on Gronk more when they need touchdowns.

I'm done with this argument. I've made my case. Based on his availability, production and intangibles---Jason Witten was worth every penny of his contract. If you want to make threads comparing Crawford's contract to Suh then fine. You are comparing a very good, durable leader to this team to a great player that makes more but can't stay healthy---and saying Witten is a bad value.

If anything, Gronk may be underpaid a bit but since he can't stay on the field...you're paying a million per game so it seems about right.

I love Gronk as a player but I'll defend Witten to the death. They don't make players like that anymore and he has earned every penny of his contract.

This sort of thinking is what is wrong with the Cowboys and why we can't get over the hump. You want to laud Witten and pay him for what he has historically done. That doesn't wing games NOW. What his production NOW is what we are talking about and his cap hit relative to that.

Would you rather have 6 first downs all by Witten and a field goal/punt, or two first downs by Gronk and a TD. I have an idea what you would take, but I would take Gronk and the 6 points every time.

 

[Verdict]

Maybe I don't understand the concept of "sacred cow", but just for the record: If a "sacred cow" player is defined as a player that has played his heart out, given everything he has every day, practices what he preaches and leads by example, all while compiling some all-time great stats at his position and is a player that any fan can be proud to claim as one of theirs, then yes, he is a "sacred cow". He will very likely be in the HOF and most certainly will be in the ROH. He may be old and slow, but he's an inspiring team leader and still presents significant value to the team.

Past production isn't winning games now. Yes he is one of the greatest ever to play the position. But his cap number is too high for his current production.

 

[robjay04]

This sort of thinking is what is wrong with the Cowboys and why we can't get over the hump. You want to laud Witten and pay him for what he has historically done. That doesn't wing games NOW. What his production NOW is what we are talking about and his cap hit relative to that.

Would you rather have 6 first downs all by Witten and a field goal/punt, or two first downs by Gronk and a TD. I have an idea what you would take, but I would take Gronk and the 6 points every time.

Cowboys offense historically scores as much as the Patriots. I don't even understand the points you're making. It would be one thing to call out a guy on a bad offense but during the last 5 years he has been a vital piece of some very good, efficient offenses.

I also don't think you understand the salary cap. Is he worth his cap figure now? No way...why is it like that? Because he took less of a cap hit in the earlier years of his contract so we could get under the cap. Now since it's the last year of his contract, it's time to oh him the money we pushed into the future.

 

[robjay04]

Past production isn't winning games now. Yes he is one of the greatest ever to play the position. But his cap number is too high for his current production.

His cap number is only that high due to restructures. The team pushed his money into the future to get under the cap. Over the course of his contract, has he been worth the investment? Absolutely.

 

[Verdict]

Maybe I don't understand the concept of "sacred cow", but just for the record: If a "sacred cow" player is defined as a player that has played his heart out, given everything he has every day, practices what he preaches and leads by example, all while compiling some all-time great stats at his position and is a player that any fan can be proud to claim as one of theirs, then yes, he is a "sacred cow". He will very likely be in the HOF and most certainly will be in the ROH. He may be old and slow, but he's an inspiring team leader and still presents significant value to the team.

Why don't people have the expectation that every guy on the Cowboys roster will "play his heart out", will show up for practice every day and lead by example? Why should we be paying extra for that? Shouldn't that be a bona fide occupational qualification to even be on the Cowboys roster? You guys set your standards far too low

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Splitting hairs between two HoF at different points in their careers sure seems worthwhile.

 

[Verdict]

His cap number is only that high due to restructures. The team pushed his money into the future to get under the cap. Over the course of his contract, has he been worth the investment? Absolutely.

What he was worth in prior years is irrelevant to this year. This isn't about pro rated money. He isn't worth his base salary now.

 

[LandryFan]

Past production isn't winning games now. Yes he is one of the greatest ever to play the position. But his cap number is too high for his current production.

And I am certainly not arguing that point. I just didn't want to give the impression that I think he is less than one of the all-time Cowboys players. He is that, in my book.

 

[LocimusPrime]

Currently Gronk is 118 catches behind Witten at this respective point in their careers. Gronkowski hasn't played a full season since 2011.

Yea, no. Gronkowski won't surpass Witten at any point.

He already passed him in TDs with 68 to 63. He has 6055 yds. Plays another 4-5 years and those yds and TDs will add up.

But I see your point on receptions. But much more goes into career: yds, receptions, TDs, pro-bowls, Super Bowls ect

 

[Verdict]

And I am certainly not arguing that point. I just didn't want to give the impression that I think he is less than one of the all-time Cowboys players. He is that, in my book.

You will not get any argument from me on that point. I agree with that point. This isn't about any of that.

 

[robjay04]

What he was worth in prior years is irrelevant to this year. This isn't about pro rated money. He isn't worth his base salary now.

And that statement shows you know nothing about the salary cap.

His base is only that high this season because he made 2.5 base the two years before...combined.

This is what we did last season.

http://www.espn.com/blog/dallas-cow...cture-jason-wittens-contract-create-cap-space

We have done this 3 times to make room. As you see, the past years are absolutely relevant since this was all done by design.

 

[LandryFan]

Why don't people have the expectation that every guy on the Cowboys roster will "play his heart out", will show up for practice every day and lead by example? Why should we be paying extra for that? Shouldn't that be a bona fide occupational qualification to even be on the Cowboys roster? You guys set your standards far too low

I never said we should pay extra for that. If every player was as dedicated to his craft as JW, this team would likely be unbeatable. I can expect others to be as dedicated as JW has been and provide the leadership that JW has throughout his career all I want to, but I will be disappointed because, by human nature, most won't/aren't capable of doing that.
If you don't consider him to be superior to most players when it comes to being a leader and demonstrating a superior work ethic, then that's your opinion and I'll just disagree with it. If you realistically expect that all other players are capable of doing those things at his level then I'll simply disagree with that, too.
As for us setting standards, we can all set whatever standards we want and it won't matter. If your player expectation standards are really higher than mine or anybody else's, how will that affect the player(s) you're applying those standards to? (Ans: It won't) Nor would my lower expectations have any bearing on any player. They're going to perform to the expectations they have of themselves, good or bad, high or low.