Craig Morton vs Roger Staubach/Gary Hogeboom vs Danny White-How Did You Feel?

[KJJ]

White had a melt down? Philly ran for 181 on the defense Philly was able to control the clock and the game. Dallas as a team was getting older you had guys like Randy White heading towards the end of their careers and the players we hoped would develop did not this was not the same championship caliber team that Roger helped

Randy White was heading towards the end of his career? In 1980 Randy White was in the prime of his career at 27 years old. You might want to get your facts straight. Dorsett, Drew Pearson and Tony Hill were all in their 20's in 1980. The defense got shredded that day in Philly but not being able to move the ball offensively contributed to Philly getting the opportunities. I'm not putting the entire game on Danny but let's face it he was DREADFUL!

 

[DWhite Fan]

Maybe had White completed a little more than 38.7% of his passes that day it might have opened up a few lanes for Dorsett. :toast:

Maybe if Dorsett had had a better game, the Eagles would have had to worry about the run and that would have opened up the passing game more.

Maybe if the defense could have stopped the run better, Dallas' offense would have had more opprotunities to score.

Maybe if Dallas' offensive line had blocked better, White and Dorsett would have had better performances.

But I guess to you those factors didn't have any bearing on the game.
:blind:

 

[KJJ]

Yes sir, I a saying he was special. Winning in the NFL is special. IF you don't believe that, just ask Detroit. I am not saying he was better than Roger. I am saying that those 80s losses where the result of a lot more than just Danny.

Curious, with your logic, I guess you think Don Meredith was a choker too?

Of course you think he was special look at your username. LOL You're probably the president of his fan club. Arguing with someone as bias as you is a waste of time. Danny White was not a "special" player...get real!

 

[DWhite Fan]

Of course you think he was special look at your username. LOL You're probably the president of his fan club. Arguing with someone as bias as you is a waste of time. Danny White was not a "special" player...get real!

But someone as unbiased as you doesn't have an agenda.....right

Someday you will get a clue :laugh2:

 

[Doomsday101]

Randy White was heading towards the end of his career? In 1980 Randy White was in the prime of his career at 27 years old. You might want to get your facts straight. Dorsett, Drew Pearson and Tony Hill were all in their 20's in 1980. The defense got shredded that day in Philly but not being able to move the ball offensively contributed to Philly getting the opportunities. I'm not putting the entire game on Danny but let's face it he was DREADFUL!

Dallas was dreadful and yes you are putting all on white as so many do because they think the QB is a 1 man show they are not they can't win games alone nor could roger or any QB. Lastly not talking about just the 1980 season where we made it to the NFC Championship game which was an improvement over the 1979 season where we got beat by LA in the wildcard

 

[KJJ]

Maybe if Dorsett had had a better game, the Eagles would have had to worry about the run and that would have opened up the passing game more.

Maybe if the defense could have stopped the run better, Dallas' offense would have had more opprotunities to score.

Maybe if Dallas' offensive line had blocked better, White and Dorsett would have had better performances.

But I guess to you those factors didn't have any bearing on the game.
:blind:

The Cowboys offense couldn't move the ball a lick that day. Danny couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and the running game wasn't working. Had he been able to complete a few decent passes it might have opened up the running game a little. Danny had that deer in the headlights look that he always had in big games. The guy never beamed confidence. All the excuses you're making never had to be made when Staubach was leading the team.

 

[KJJ]

But someone as unbiased as you doesn't have an agenda.....right

Someday you will get a clue :laugh2:

Dude I'm not the one with the DWhite username and Danny White avatar. I'm an objective fan and you my friend are incredibly BIAS!

 

[KJJ]

Dallas was dreadful and yes you are putting all on white as so many do because they think the QB is a 1 man show they are not they can't win games alone nor could roger or any QB. Lastly not talking about just the 1980 season where we made it to the NFC Championship game which was an improvement over the 1979 season where we got beat by LA in the wildcard

I'm not putting it all on White and if I was I'm outspoken enough to say it. I'm certainly putting alot on him because he was DREADFUL! Let's face it he completed less than 38% of his passes and his passer rating for the game was 38.0. No team is going to win a title game when their QB has that kind of day. We were talking about the 1980 NFC title game and Randy White and most of the corp group of players were under 30. The 79 playoff game the Cowboys lost to Rams was a result of two freak plays the last coming in the final 2 minutes. That was a competitive game the Cowboys should have won.

 

[Doomsday101]

I'm not putting it all on White and if I was I'm outspoken enough to say it. I'm certainly putting alot on him because he was DREADFUL! Let's face it he completed less than 38% of his passes and his passer rating for the game was 38.0. No team is going to win a title game when their QB has that kind of day. We were talking about the 1980 NFC title game and Randy White and most of the corp group of players were under 30. The 79 playoff game the Cowboys lost to Rams was a result of two freak plays the last coming in the final 2 minutes. That was a competitive game the Cowboys should have won.

Yes you are putting it on White I don't see where you place it on anyone else.

White choked but no one else did?

 

[Tricericon]

No team is going to win a title game when their QB has that kind of day.

Actually, as bad as White was in that game, he outplayed Jaworski...

 

[KJJ]

Actually, as bad as White was in that game, he outplayed Jaworski...

Granted Jaworski was even worse but Philly was able to run the ball all day and it led to a win. Montgomery had a big TD run right out of the gate on Philly's first series and it set the tone for the game. When you win especially a title game there's no finger pointing no matter how bad your QB plays. Like I said I'm not putting that game entirely on White but he did play poorly and it led to a loss. The Cowboys went on to lose the next 2 NFC title games and the Cowboys slowly began to decline as did White's career. The Cowboys were never the same team with him at QB as they were with Staubach. The team always rallied around Staubach because they believed in him. Even in the big games the Cowboys lost under Staubach Roger kept them in those games and you always felt like the Cowboys still had a chance to win no matter how far behind they got. The team would never quit with Roger leading them. It was never that way with White at QB because teams knew they could rattle him they didn't respect him and his own teammates started losing confidence in him.

Teams would disrespect the Cowboys when they would get them down with White at QB but they never dared disrespect the team with Staubach at the helm because they knew the Cowboys were never out of it with him at QB. I remember an interview with Joe Theismann talking about the great 79 comeback Staubach had against his Commanders. Theismann said even when they had the Cowboys down by 14 points with just over 3 minutes to play every player on their sidelines was holding their breath because they feared Staubach in that situation.

 

[DWhite Fan]

Granted Jaworski was even worse but Philly was able to run the ball all day and it led to a win.

You are priceless!

On Dallas's side, you rip Danny for not opening things up for Dorsett, but then, on Philly side, you say it was good that Montgomery was able to take the pressure off Jaworski.

A little wishy-washy aren't you :laugh1:

 

[KJJ]

Yes you are putting it on White I don't see where you place it on anyone else.

White choked but no one else did?

The QB is always going to take the most heat when they play poorly and their team loses it comes with territory. The defense played terrible that day and White couldn't move the offense. There was never an air of confidence about White he always had that look of fear in his eyes everytime he walked up to the line of scrimmage looking over the defense. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind his teammates didn't have near the same confidence in him as they did in Staubach. We all got spoiled watching the greatness of Staubach for a decade and White simply couldn't make the plays when it mattered most. The opportunities were there but he wasn't Joe Montana or Roger Staubach.

 

[JackMagist]

I was a Staubach fan from the first time he stepped on the field. Morton was good, he led two different teams to the SB and not many QB's have done that, in fact I think he is the only one. But I still preferred Staubach because Morton did not have the "it" factor that Staubach had.

As for White and Hogenbloom (as Landry called him) I loved Danny White. Had the ball bounced just a little differently for him he would have won at least one SB and could have won several. Hogeboom had a quick release and a strong arm but that was it. He locked in on receivers and never learned the subtleties of the position. Had he understudied White a couple of extra years he might have been a very good QB but that was not the case.

 

[KJJ]

You are priceless!

On Dallas's side, you rip Danny for not opening things up for Dorsett, but then, on Philly side, you say it was good that Montgomery was able to take the pressure off Jaworski.

A little wishy-washy aren't you :laugh1:

I never "ripped" Danny for not opening things up for Dorsett I simply pointed out had he been able to make a few plays it might have opened up a few lanes for Dorsett. The Cowboys got their backs put against the wall right off the bat on Philly's first series with Montgomery's long TD run. Vermeil had that team so fired up they were about to bust. If you go back and review that game Danny missed on a few plays that were there that could have possibly gotten things going for the Cowboys. Jaworski was no better than Danny White he proved that 2 weeks later in the SB tossing 3 picks to the same player. I'm not down on White for just that one game it's the fact he couldn't get the team over the hump when they were so close year after year. The title game loss to the 49ers the following year in a game White actually played well in bothered me more than any stinker performance he ever had. Who knows where his career might have gone had Pearson not been brought down by his jersey in the final seconds or if he could have gotten the Cowboys in position to kick the game winner instead of fumbling. He always made the big mistake at the worst time. It was either a fumble or an untimely pick that would do the Cowboys in. Dude no offense but of all the great players the Cowboys had why so infatuated with Danny White? LOL

 

[Chuck 54]

I was always a huge Danny White fan...my type of player, and he broke several of Staubach's records and just couldn't get over the hump for a championship.

As for Staubach/Morton, I was actually a Craig Morton fan at first...I liked him...he was a big, strong armed, quiet guy, and Staubach was a rough around the edges, smaller, running QB.

Obviously, I was totally wrong, but I'll admit that during the years of controversy which saw Morton starting, staubach starting, and the two alternating starts during the regular season, I was pulling for Morton to be the guy who won the battle.

I was never sorry to be on the losing side of that controversy since my team ended up winning two SB's.

 

[DWhite Fan]

I never "ripped" Danny for not opening things up for Dorsett I simply pointed out had he been able to make a few plays it might have opened up a few lanes for Dorsett. The Cowboys got their backs put against the wall right off the bat on Philly's first series with Montgomery's long TD run. Vermeil had that team so fired up they were about to bust. If you go back and review that game Danny missed on a few plays that were there that could have possibly gotten things going for the Cowboys. Jaworski was no better than Danny White he proved that 2 weeks later in the SB tossing 3 picks to the same player. I'm not down on White for just that one game it's the fact he couldn't get the team over the hump when they were so close year after year. The title game loss to the 49ers the following year in a game White actually played well in bothered me more than any stinker performance he ever had. Who knows where his career might have gone had Pearson not been brought down by his jersey in the final seconds or if he could have gotten the Cowboys in position to kick the game winner instead of fumbling. He always made the big mistake at the worst time. It was either a fumble or an untimely pick that would do the Cowboys in. Dude no offense but of all the great players the Cowboys had why so infatuated with Danny White? LOL

Your comments from the first post you made are identical to the the ones I dealt with when Danny played. See, I have never claimed Danny was better than Roger. I liked Staubach, but Danny was my favorite Cowboy from the day he put the jersey on (I have always been a fan of the under dog) I am not claiming Danny was the best to ever play, but I have heard crap spoke about him forever. I defended him then, I defend him now. The man was a damn good QB who never has received the respect he deserves. He took the team to 3 straight title matches and I know, more than anyone, no SBs. Would you rather have had Hogeboom, Carano, or Pelluer? White was a hell of alot better than Morton.

But, here is one for you. I have all the resect in the world for Don Meredith. But, why is Meredith in the ROH and White isn't? Meredith won as many titles as Danny (0). Meredith dropped two NFL Championship games (same as NFC Championship) to the Packers in 1967 (Don threw the INT into the endzone that ended the one played in Dallas) Is Meredith a "choker?"

But you cannot judge a QB only on titles. Was Fran Tarkenton a bad QB? He has no rings to show for his career. How about Dan Marino? Dan Fouts? What about Jim Kelly?

I am like a mule about this, and I will be the rest of my life. Do I expect to change the minds of individuals who hold an opinion of White like you? Not at all. You are totally entitled to your opinion. But as long as I have the ability, I will defend the man.

You name me one QB who could have followed Roger and done any better? I said it earlier, and I will say it again. Danny's only crime was not being Roger Staubach. I will say this too, if Romo's career ends no more successfully than the one Danny had (Romo will win a SB before its over), I will say Tony was a damn good QB too.

:starspin

 

[DWhite Fan]

I was always a huge Danny White fan...my type of player, and he broke several of Staubach's records and just couldn't get over the hump for a championship.

As for Staubach/Morton, I was actually a Craig Morton fan at first...I liked him...he was a big, strong armed, quiet guy, and Staubach was a rough around the edges, smaller, running QB.

Obviously, I was totally wrong, but I'll admit that during the years of controversy which saw Morton starting, staubach starting, and the two alternating starts during the regular season, I was pulling for Morton to be the guy who won the battle.

I was never sorry to be on the losing side of that controversy since my team ended up winning two SB's.

Craig Morton wasn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be. Was he better than Roger? Heck no! Landry made the right choice in 1971. But Craig had the unfortunate luck to be the QB of "Next Year's Champions" He had some good years with Dallas and with Denver. But in the city of Dallas, it is either SB rings or Bust. I wouldn't have had it any other way, but I did feel sad for Craig in SB XII.

I still wonder, if Morton had gotten a win over the Colts in SB V, would Landry have picked Roger in '71? Unlike some, I don't lay the loss in SB V on Morton alone. I think Reeves should have caught that last Morton pass that ended up an INT. I think Dallas recovered Thomas' fumble on the goal line that the Refs GAVE to Baltimore. I STILL do not believe Renfro touched that pass the went to Mackey for the 75 yard TD.

I do not think Dallas would have had as much success in the 70s with Craig, but they would have been competitive at the least.

:starspin

 

[KJJ]

Your comments from the first post you made are identical to the the ones I dealt with when Danny played.

That's because alot of fans were frustrated with Danny so you can see I'm not in minority. The biggest problem Danny faced was having to follow Staubach. Probably no player in Cowboys history did more for the Cowboys than Roger. Before Staubach came along it was one heartbreak after another for the Cowboys. They were called bridesmaids and next years champions. When Staubach took over everything changed. He was the one who finally got the team over the hump and turned them into America's Team. Ice water didn't flow through Danny's veins the way it did with Staubach. Fans became very frustrated with Danny's ill timed mistakes and his inability to get the team over the hump in those 3 consecutive title games. The fumble against the 49ers in the 81 title game hung a black cloud over his career and I'm sure to this day that game and fumble still haunts him. I became fed up with him after that title loss and I know alot of fans did. Through the years fans have eased up on Danny and most of it is because they felt sorry for him. Time can heal alot of wounds especially when the Cowboys have a talented QB like Romo who couldn't even win a playoff game until last season. The fact that Danny got the team to title games made him look a little better to fans knowing he got team farther than Romo has.

But, here is one for you. I have all the resect in the world for Don Meredith. But, why is Meredith in the ROH and White isn't? Meredith won as many titles as Danny (0). Meredith dropped two NFL Championship games (same as NFC Championship) to the Packers in 1967 (Don threw the INT into the endzone that ended the one played in Dallas) Is Meredith a "choker?"

White was a better QB than Meredith in my opinion. Meredith was only a 50% career passer and his numbers wouldn't even sniff HOF consideration. He suffered from some of the big mistakes like Danny and the fans use to boo Meredith unmercifully. It was the booing by the fans that drove him into retirement he said so in an interview. As time went on fans started softening on Meredith and alot of it had to do with his popularity on Monday Night Football. He became an icon on that show and I honestly believe his after football popularity is what got him enshrined into the Cowboys ROH. The criteria for the ROH was alot different back then than it is now. Back then the Cowboys wanted to honor some of the players that helped establish the Cowboys as a contender. This is why Don Perkins was put in the ROH. Perkins had some very average career stats. He never once rushed for a 1000 yards and like Meredith will never be in consideration for the HOF. Bob Hays had a HOF career and he wasn't even put in the ROH until Jerry took over. The old regime was probably put off by Hay's drug arrest. With Jerry in charge only the greatest Cowboy players(HOF caliber)are inducted into the ROH. The criteria for induction has clearly changed alot from the inception of the ROH.

Was Fran Tarkenton a bad QB? He has no rings to show for his career.

Fran Tarkenton is in the HOF because of his stats just like Warren Moon who never even sniffed a SB. Both are considered great QB's even though they choked like dogs in big games. The HOF is all about numbers. Both Tarkenton and Moon were dreadful in the games that mattered most but they played forever which enabled them to amass alot of yards and TD's. Tarkenton played 18 years and SUCKED in his SB appearances. I gotta to tell you I'm not fond in the least of QB's who can put up big numbers during the regular season then lay eggs when it's all on the line. Favre falls in that same category. He's the most OVERRATED QB in history. He's one of the last QB's I'd pick if my life depended on a big game win. Hopefully Romo doesn't end up being a stat QB who can't put up the numbers when it really matters. So far that's been the case.

Would you rather have had Hogeboom, Carano, or Pelluer? White was a hell of alot better than Morton.

We got stuck with both Hogeboom and Pelluer because Danny wasn't getting it done. By the time we saw Hogeboom and Pelluer the Cowboys had declined so much even if they could play things wouldn't have been any different. Aikman couldn't do much his first 2 seasons with little to no talent around him. As for Morton White was better than him.

You name me one QB who could have followed Roger and done any better?

Joe Montana :toast:

 

[Tricericon]

I'm not old enough (21) to have seen any of the four play live, but I do have a fairly strong, related opinion so I'll post it and you ignore it if you want.

I don't believe in the clutch QB. Further, I've never seen any evidence of 'choking' that couldn't be chalked up to other factors just as easily, so I have no reason to believe in that, either.

Who was the best quarterback to have when the chips were down? The same guy who was the best no matter what the game situation was, Roger Staubach. Who has the most come from behind wins? Brett Favre, the same guy who has the most total wins. Who'd he pass for the 4Q comeback title? John Elway, the same guy he passed for the wins total. Doesn't that make anyone else suspicious at all?

You can say players like Tarkenton and Marino and Moon choked in the playoffs, but when was either ever on a team that should have won a Super Bowl? Tarkenton's Vikings weren't as good as any of the teams they faced in his three appearances. Marino never had the best team entering the tournament. Moon had a couple of teams that should have been AFC champions, sure, but he put up 38 points in one of the losses and was outdueled by Joe Montana in the other - and since they'd have been going up against the Triplets in those Super Bowls, he wouldn't have gotten a ring out of it anyway.

I don't consider living up to expectations but failing to exceed them to be choking.

KJJ, I also think you're underrating Meredith and Perkins. In the context of his era, Meredith had good solid numbers equivalent to White or Morton in theirs. Perkins name came up quite a bit around me, and not from Cowboys fans, as a guy 'more deserving than Floyd Little for the Hall of Fame' so I don't think it's fair to say he gets no consideration.