Craig Morton vs Roger Staubach/Gary Hogeboom vs Danny White-How Did You Feel?

[Dodger]

LOL. I love how, for some people, any NFL QB who has never won a championship is considered a choker. It never fails to entertain.

 

[Doomsday101]

LOL. I love how, for some people, any NFL QB who has never won a championship is considered a choker. It never fails to entertain.

The media told them that so that is they believe. By that rational Joe Thiesman was a much better QB than Marino and Fouts.

 

[KJJ]

LOL. I love how, for some people, any NFL QB who has never won a championship is considered a choker. It never fails to entertain.

Not all are chokers but when you have QB's who put up incredible numbers throughout the regular season to put their teams in a position to win a championship and they repeatedly fold in big games like a Tarkenton or a Warren Moon it's hard not to label them chokers. Tarkenton STUNK in all 3 of his SB appearances. The Steelers didn't even play that great in SB 9 but Tarkenton only passed 102 yards which led to a pathetic passer rating of 14.1. That was a very good Vikings team that had just repeated as NFC champs. Against the Raiders in SB 11 frantic Fran only passed 219 yards, had 2 int's and completed only 48% of his passes. His passer rating that day was 53.8. He combined for 6 picks and only 1 TD pass in three SB appearances. This was a QB who ended up with over 47,000 yards and 342 TD's during the regular season. Takenton was a stat QB who couldn't produce in the games that mattered most. There's many examples of QB's who can light it up during the regular season every year then fold like a cheap suit when it's all on the line.

 

[The Emperor]

Of course you think he was special look at your username. LOL You're probably the president of his fan club. Arguing with someone as bias as you is a waste of time. Danny White was not a "special" player...get real!

You didn't answer the question. Was Don Meredith a choker too?

 

[KJJ]

You didn't answer the question. Was Don Meredith a choker too?

Meredith couldn't get the Cowboys past the Packers and he had his share of turnovers in big games but I don't consider him a choker because he wasn't a great player who put up impressive numbers during the regular season only to unravel in big games every year. The Cowboys hadn't quite arrived during Meredith's tenure as Cowboys QB. The Packers were the most dominant team during that era and the Cowboys kept running into them. Meredith took a terrible beating and it was clear the Cowboys still had a ways to go. Any QB who's leading a very talented championship caliber team and is putting up HOF numbers during the season only to implode in the games that matter most every postseason is a choker in my opinion. I consider Brett Favre a CHOKER.

Had he not been matched against another gag artist in Bledsoe in the SB Favre probably wouldn't have a ring to show for all his numbers. You find out what QB's are really made of in championship games. Even though Jim Plunkett wasn't a great QB at least in my opinion I have more respect for him than some of these all world stat QB's who melt under the pressure of a SB. You don't play the game for stats you play it for rings. I'm sure Dan Marino and Dan Fouts would trade in their numbers for one championship ring.

 

[KJJ]

KJJ, I also think you're underrating Meredith and Perkins. In the context of his era, Meredith had good solid numbers equivalent to White or Morton in theirs. Perkins name came up quite a bit around me, and not from Cowboys fans, as a guy 'more deserving than Floyd Little for the Hall of Fame' so I don't think it's fair to say he gets no consideration.

I don't think saying Meredith and Perkins not being great players is underestimating them. You're saying Meredith's numbers were solid? You might want to go check his numbers. LOL His career passing percentage was 50.7%. He had just over 17,000 yards passing during his 9 year career. He tossed 218 int's compared to only 135 TD's. Do you consider those numbers "solid"? In an interview with NFL Films Meredith said he quit pro football because he got tired of the fans booing him. His popularity off the field as an icon on Monday Night Football played a HUGE part in his induction into the Cowboys ROH. He started on Monday Night Football in 1970 and was inducted into the ROH in 1976. He always pumped the Cowboys on ABC during those Monday Night telecasts and he became so popular from that show I honestly believe that's what got him inducted into the ROH.

As for Perkins his numbers were very average as well. He never rushed for 1000 yards. He never averaged more than 4.4 a carry for any season. His career average was 4.1. He was inducted into the ROH a year after Meredith in 77. Like I said the criteria for induction into the ROH was different during the old regime. The Cowboys wanted honor the players that helped mold the team into a contender during the 60's. Those players gave several years of blood, sweat and tears to the organization and it was the Cowboys way of honoring those players. As for Floyd Little I have no idea how or why he got inducted into the HOF. His numbers were right there with Perkins and Little's career average was only 3.9 per carry. I assume he's friends with alot of the voters because him being voted in was a real head scratcher.

You can say players like Tarkenton and Marino and Moon choked in the playoffs, but when was either ever on a team that should have won a Super Bowl? Tarkenton's Vikings weren't as good as any of the teams they faced in his three appearances.

I got news those Viking teams Tarkenton led to those SB's were very good teams. That purple people eater DL was one of the best DL's in the league during that era. They had an excellent RB in Chuck Foreman. That team went to 3 SB's in 4 years. The Vikings were a jinxed team in the SB similar to the Buffalo teams during the 90's. In SB 4 the Vikings under Joe Kapp were heavily favored over KC and got dominated. The Steelers didn't play that great in SB 9 only scoring 16 points but Takenton was terrible. The guy was a HOF QB and he stunk in every SB he played in. He made a number of mistakes that cost his team. He tossed TD's like they were going out of style during the regular season but only put up 1 TD in 3 SB appearances. As for Warren Moon he's best known for that mega collapse against the Bills in the playoffs in 92. His Oilers were up 35-7 in the 3rd quarter then his game started coming apart as did his defense.

He tossed a couple of costly picks in the second half and once the bleeding started it turned into a hemorrhage. Although he put up some big numbers in that game most of them came in the first half when he couldn't miss on a pass. All I know is Moon could light it up until the postseason arrived. As for Marino he never produced in the playoffs the way he was producing during the regular season. In his record breaking season where he was averaging 3 TD's per week he only tossed one in the SB. Marino took apart that great 85 Bears defense and was the only QB to beat them that year but he and his Dolphins folded in the playoffs against the Pats. None of these QB's could play to the level they did during the regular season in the post season that's why there's not one single ring between them even though they combined for over 157,000 yards passing. All of them were on teams that could have won it all had they played to the level they did during the regular season.

Who was the best quarterback to have when the chips were down? The same guy who was the best no matter what the game situation was, Roger Staubach. Who has the most come from behind wins? Brett Favre, the same guy who has the most total wins. Who'd he pass for the 4Q comeback title? John Elway, the same guy he passed for the wins total. Doesn't that make anyone else suspicious at all?

The best QB when the chips were down was Joe Montana with Staubach being a close second. Favre has all the records because he's been a starting QB in the NFL for 18 years. That's how long it took Takenton to amass his then record total. Favre is popular because he's a good ol boy who doesn't care what he looks like. He dresses like a bum and farts in front of people fans can relate. The NFL Network loves him REPEATEDLY showing his sound bites over and over again. Steve Mariucci can't stop talking about him he's worse than Madden. Even as much as Mooch loves him if he had to pick one QB to win a game his life depended I don't think he would dare pick Favre. LOL

 

[Hostile]

LOL. I love how, for some people, any NFL QB who has never won a championship is considered a choker. It never fails to entertain.

I find it amusing that people look at passing numbers from the 1960's and compare them to passing numbers today to gauge them. Yardage and completion percentage in particular are simply not comparable, but people still do. Not worth the time to explain the game to them because they will never get it.

 

[percyhoward]

I find it amusing that people look at passing numbers from the 1960's and compare them to passing numbers today to gauge them.

Anybody who doesn't get this, look what happens when you use raw numbers to compare across eras...

Career Passer Rating
Roger Staubach 83.4
Mark Brunell 83.9

Five Best Career Finishes (League Ranking - Passer Rating)
Roger Staubach 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd
Mark Brunell 4th, 7th, 7th, 8th, 9th

 

[percyhoward]

Meredith's career interception total as posted earlier is wrong. He had 111 career picks--not 218. Here's Meredith's real TD/INT ratio, and how it stacks up against the HOF QB's of his era.

TD/INT Ratio
Jurgensen 255/189 (1.35)
Dawson 239/183 (1.31)
Tarkenton 342/266 (1.29)
Meredith 135/111 (1.22)
Unitas 290/253 (1.15)
Starr 152/138 (1.10)
Namath 173/220 (0.79)

 

[Tricericon]

Whoops, didn't mean to derail the topic that far. I'm going to let that tangent go, after I make a few final points.

1. Almost all QBs see their stats drop in the postseason, because the quality of defenses goes up considerably.

2. I never said Tarkenton's SB teams weren't great, just that they weren't as good as their opponents. I stand by that opinion.

3. The Steelers played a mediocre offensive game in SB IX, but that was the Steel Curtain's best SB showing.

4. Floyd Little got in because his presenter was a very slick salesman. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=5993

 

[Hostile]

Anybody who doesn't get this, look what happens when you use raw numbers to compare across eras...

Career Passer Rating
Roger Staubach 83.4
Mark Brunell 83.9

Five Best Career Finishes (League Ranking - Passer Rating)
Roger Staubach 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd
Mark Brunell 4th, 7th, 7th, 8th, 9th

Meredith's career interception total as posted earlier is wrong. He had 111 career picks--not 218. Here's Meredith's real TD/INT ratio, and how it stacks up against the HOF QB's of his era.

TD/INT Ratio
Jurgensen 255/189 (1.35)
Dawson 239/183 (1.31)
Tarkenton 342/266 (1.29)
Meredith 135/111 (1.22)
Unitas 290/253 (1.15)
Starr 152/138 (1.10)
Namath 173/220 (0.79)

I swear, you are a wizard with the facts.

Thank you.

 

[percyhoward]

I swear, you are a wizard with the facts.

Thank you.

Here's one that should add more fire to the argument for White.

The Cowboys have appeared in the Conference Championship game 16 times in their history (including the NFL Title games in '66 and '67). 13 of the 16 times, the Dallas defense was ranked among the league's top 10 in total yards allowed.

What were the only 3 seasons that Cowboys managed to make it to the NFCC without a top 10 defense? 1980, 1981, and 1982, with Danny White at quarterback.

Here are the five QB's who have taken the Cowboys to at least within one game of the Super Bowl, and the average rankings of their defenses.

Staubach's defenses ('71, '73, '75 '77, '78) 4th
Meredith's defenses ('66-'67) 5th
Morton's defenses ('70, '72) 5th
Aikman's defenses ('92-'95) 5th
White's defenses ('80-'82) 16th

 

[burmafrd]

What is not talked about too much with the Vikings in the 70's was how small their front seven was even for that time. That was really how the Steelers and the Raiders just ate their D up by runing it right down their throats and controling the clock. Their LBs averaged maybee 220 lbs and their D line about 240 or so. Marshal was barely 230. I remember the Raiders especially with Upshaw and Casper just absolutely running over them on that side.

 

[Tricericon]

Here's one that should add more fire to the argument for White.

The Cowboys have appeared in the Conference Championship game 16 times in their history (including the NFL Title games in '66 and '67). 13 of the 16 times, the Dallas defense was ranked among the league's top 10 in total yards allowed.

What were the only 3 seasons that Cowboys managed to make it to the NFCC without a top 10 defense? 1980, 1981, and 1982, with Danny White at quarterback.

Here are the five QB's who have taken the Cowboys to at least within one game of the Super Bowl, and the average rankings of their defenses.

Staubach's defenses ('71, '73, '75 '77, '78) 4th
Meredith's defenses ('66-'67) 5th
Morton's defenses ('70, '72) 5th
Aikman's defenses ('92-'95) 5th
White's defenses ('80-'82) 16th

How does this look if you use points allowed instead of yards?

 

[fgoodwin]

You lost your credibility right there :starspin

True -- Morton led two teams to the Super Bowl, something Danny never did.

 

[percyhoward]

How does this look if you use points allowed instead of yards?

That metric also shows that the weakest Cowboy defenses that made it as far as the NFCC were White's defenses.

Aikman's defenses ('92-'95) 3rd
Meredith's defenses ('66-'67) 5th
Morton's defenses ('70, '72) 5th
Staubach's defenses ('71, '73, '75 '77, '78) 7th
White's defenses ('80-'82) 8th

 

[KJJ]

Meredith's career interception total as posted earlier is wrong. He had 111 career picks--not 218. Here's Meredith's real TD/INT ratio, and how it stacks up against the HOF QB's of his era.

TD/INT Ratio
Jurgensen 255/189 (1.35)
Dawson 239/183 (1.31)
Tarkenton 342/266 (1.29)
Meredith 135/111 (1.22)
Unitas 290/253 (1.15)
Starr 152/138 (1.10)
Namath 173/220 (0.79)

My bad they had all his numbers crunched together and I mistakenly put down the number of sacks he took.

 

[KJJ]

Here's one that should add more fire to the argument for White.

The Cowboys have appeared in the Conference Championship game 16 times in their history (including the NFL Title games in '66 and '67). 13 of the 16 times, the Dallas defense was ranked among the league's top 10 in total yards allowed.

What were the only 3 seasons that Cowboys managed to make it to the NFCC without a top 10 defense? 1980, 1981, and 1982, with Danny White at quarterback.

Here are the five QB's who have taken the Cowboys to at least within one game of the Super Bowl, and the average rankings of their defenses.

Staubach's defenses ('71, '73, '75 '77, '78) 4th
Meredith's defenses ('66-'67) 5th
Morton's defenses ('70, '72) 5th
Aikman's defenses ('92-'95) 5th
White's defenses ('80-'82) 16th

It would be an argument if White played well in those games and his defense let him down. The 81 title game was there to be taken and he had 2 costly turnovers. There was a pick deep in Cowboys territory that led to a score for San Fran and the fumble in the final seconds when the Cowboys were driving that ended the game.

 

[percyhoward]

It would be an argument if White played well in those games and his defense let him down.

Except that the season doesn't begin with the championship game. The offense (with White at QB) was the reason the Cowboys were playing in those games in the first place. You can look at all 3 years, and his offense outplayed the defense every year.

That's something that can't be said about any other Dallas quarterback who ever made it that far.

 

[KJJ]

Except that the season doesn't begin with the championship game. The offense (with White at QB) was the reason the Cowboys were playing in those games in the first place. You can look at all 3 years, and his offense outplayed the defense every year.

That's something that can't be said about any other Dallas quarterback who ever made it that far.

So are saying Staubach and Aikman were carried to their championships by their defense? Staubach made a number of plays during the season to help get the Cowboys to those SB's. He wasn't called "captain comeback" because his defense dominated every week. It wasn't like Roger could just hand off all day and let his defense dominate. The Steelers took it to our defense in both SB X and XIII but Staubach kept the Cowboys in those games and gave them a chance in the end. Troy had to hit Alvin Harper on a huge play late in the 4th quarter of the 92 NFC title game with the Cowboys clinging to a 4 point lead for them to advance to the SB. The defenses White had may not have ranked as high as some of our other D's but they were good enough for the Cowboys to reach 3 straight NFC title games. It wasn't like Danny White was carrying those teams on his shoulders throughout the season.

He had a golden opportunity to get the Cowboys to the SB in 81 and he made two costly mistakes down the stretch that contributed greatly to the loss. That game was back and forth all day and it came down to both teams QB's having to make plays and Montana got it done because he was a GREAT player. White had his chance to trump Montana and he turned the ball over when the game was on the line. That play pretty much signified Whites career. He was a good QB who just couldn't get it done when it mattered most. Staubach and Aikman were in many crunch situations during their careers and were able to come through alot that's why they have 5 SB rings between them and busts in Canton.