Dak Hater's Myth: We Can't Build Around a QB Market Value Contract

[817Gill]

It takes a lot of good work by management and luck to draft well. You can't control who will be there and do they fit your needs. The importance of good cap management is to give you the flexibility to supplement the draft with FA's to plug holes. Have a lot of respect for the 49ers mgmt but their draft results may not be as spectacular if they start drafting closer to the end of each round. Then cap management becomes much more important to their continued success.

Cap management for the Cowboys is hyper critical as JG for the most part could always be counted on to make your draft position just outside of premium player range and we have insisted on paying too many players at the top of the pay scale.

Well if you read the rest of the quote you see that the drafting acumen isn’t the top 5 picks they have on the d line. It’s all the 3-6th rounders that start for them and account for that middle class of the roster. We have had success finding contributors in those rounds before, I am confident we can continue to do that especially with Marinelli gone

 

[817Gill]

LOL let's go ahead and look at this

Nick Foles was a backup, wasn't destroying the cap and Wentz still on a rookie deal
Brady had x3 Super Bowls in the past with a home town discount
Joe Flacco got his first Super Bowl win the same year he got his new contract, with Lewis and Reed on their final deals. How did it play out after that?
Aaron Rodgers got a contract in 2008, guaranteed $20 million

Eli Manning is the one who broke the mold here. 2x Championships despite being one of the wealthiest QBs in NFL history. On his second contract when he got his 07 and 11 Super Bowls.

If, in 2008, the Packers knew what Rodgers would become he would have got an even bigger contract. And good luck getting a home town discount out of Prescott.

So only 2 starters on rookie deals? Lmao wasted your time

 

[mattjames2010]

He's obviously saying that's the kind of QB we need - what's the point of complaining that Dak can't overcome deficiencies like them if he isn't saying that's the kind of QB we need. Are we to believe it was mindless rambling without a point?

So, you are arguing that it was different with other QBs early in their careers because they hadn't yet got the big payday. Well, that's exactly the same with Dak over the first 4 years of his career, so it's really not different.

The reason I'm leaving out the O-Line is because I don't know O-Linemen around the NFL like I do position players. I would guess we probably have a little better O-Line than some, but I don't think those guys were suffering behind theirs most of their careers. A quick look at 2019 though shows that the Saints O-Line had 3 Pro-Bowlers and one 1st team All-Pro, so that's not exactly shabby.

No, he is simply pointing out if you give a big contract to a QB, what you will NEED to overcome lack of talent around you is an elite QB. That's it. Because it's factual. He never mentioned how difficult it was, you added that. He also mentioned offensive line, which you left out - which is far more important than skill positions. Both Rodgers and Wilson have had to put up with shoddy offensive lines throughout their careers, some being the worst in the league. As for Brees, it was the opposite problem - the Saints provided him weapons, but he had to put up with bad defenses. He now has a defense, but outside of Thomas and Kamara, one of the biggest problems Brees has is that he doesn't have much in the way of talent to throw to - which is why they brought in Dez in 2018 and even entertained Antonio Brown.

And you don't know how it would have played out with Brees if he stayed with the Chargers. What they got was Brees on his rookie deal until 2005, then he was ultimately traded, just to get Rivers on his rookie deal.

 

[817Gill]

I dont see it as shrewd, the stars aligned they brought in JG after 3 really bad seasons, he started out shaky blew a knee and they ended up with Bosa.. im sorry but having top picks 4 straight years because you sucked is not shrewd IMO ..they made good choices but most were easy cant miss picks when you are top 5 or 10 4 straight years in draft position because of DOUBLE DIDGIT LOSSES..BTW his 28mil is sure looking good right now because players like Dak wants 35 and arent better...

yes SF did a great job and made the SB but it too historically bad years to do so and they had a great coaching staff to make it work unlike Browns who have as much talent but couldn't get it done.. you should have great players constantly picking the best players in the draft and re-booting your cap by setting 70% of your team go in that time period....

this is not agreat argument for the DC as we have not been that bad in so long we dont have those opportunity's very often..

Again, the meat of the drafting that Peter King is talking about is the mid round guys. Not the bosas and Armistead’s of the world. It’s the guys they got in rounds 3-6 that have made the middle class of that team. We aren’t questioning our high end talent, it’s the depth and middle class we worry about losing with a new Dak deal.

Smart FA choices and solid mid round draft picks are the best way to circumvent that. Which is what the niners got a lot of, mid round guys who played roles

 

[mattjames2010]

So only 2 starters on rookie deals? Lmao wasted your time

It's not just about "rookie deal", it's the TYPE of deal QBs get. Again, Rodgers got his contract BEFORE he was even regarded as an elite QB. Joe Flacco's contract came in 2013, after the Super Bowl - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...accos-ravens-contract-includes-52m-guaranteed - very little playoff success, 0 Super Bowl wins after. Patriots had the benefit of Brady giving them discounts in recent years, and they won a Super Bowl with Brady when he was on his rookie deal (his 2002 contract wasn't anything gigantic and didn't take much cap hit until 2005) - after which, it took them a decade to win another Super Bowl.

So again, what you have is the Manning brothers and Tom Brady. Two of those QBs are all-time greats, and Eli who had two historic throws against the greatest dynasty in sports history. So we either need a ton of luck, the next greatest coach in sports history, or legendary QBs.

 

[Miller]

 

[mattjames2010]

This doesn't really help him at all. The 07 Super Bowl was a shocker and legendary "taking down the giant" - Patriots won because they have two legendary people part of their dynasty. Flacco got his massive contract in 2013. Foles won the Super Bowl with Wentz under his rookie contract. Wilson under rookie contract.

x3 Brady Super Bowls, x2 Eli Manning, x1 Peyton Manning. Two of those are legendary QBs, while one of those Super Bowls was a shocker. I would say 2011 is the outlier in this case.

 

[ondaedg]

We didn’t lose Ware due to the cap. We let him walk because in the 4-3 he wasn’t worth the money. He was injured a lot. His production was down, offsides penalties up, and his speed rush looping behind the QB was killing our run defense. For all his greatness, Ware was born to be a 3-4 OLB, not a 4-3 DE.

Exactly. Ware moving on was always about his performance/cost going down as he aged.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Please all you Dak Hater's I kindly ask you answer 2 questions

1. Which players did we lose to Free Agency because of Tony Romo's Market Value setting contract?

2. Which players on the roster will we lose that we would have wanted to keep if we sign Dak to Market Value Contract.


Thank you!

The big mistake was Zeke at 15 million. If they want to complain, that is where they should start. Of course you never hear a peep out of them over that horrid contract.

 

[McKDaddy]

Well if you read the rest of the quote you see that the drafting acumen isn’t the top 5 picks they have on the d line. It’s all the 3-6th rounders that start for them and account for that middle class of the roster. We have had success finding contributors in those rounds before, I am confident we can continue to do that especially with Marinelli gone

oh yeah they have done well, just that their 3-6th rounders were at the beginning of rounds which often means you are getting 2nd round talent in the third and so on.
They will now have to deal with the cap issues of having to pay those draft picks.
Hopefully we will indeed draft talent and adapt scheme to make it work.

 

[CowboyRoy]

We lost Ware ans Leary due to the cap, we also were non factors in F.A for years. Most importantly, it was not a recipe fo a S.B trophy.

Huge difference between that time and now. Cowboys were consistently abusing the cap and had tons of dead money. Complete flip flop now with Stephen taking over. Cowboys have tons of money, 5th in the NFL with 70 million and well over 100 million coming next season.

So you wouldnt pay Mahomes 40 million or would you let him walk too? LOL

So what is your recipe? I would love to hear it. Keep drafting rookies and letting them walk when they turn out to be franchise guys and want big contracts? LOL

Sign journeyman QB's and hope to win a title? LOL

Leary was NOT a cap casualty any more than Jones is now. Leary had a degenerative knee problem and they didnt want to take a chance. Was more about THAT fact and the fact that they were already spending big on the line.

Anything else you need an education on?

 

[mattjames2010]

The big mistake was Zeke at 15 million. If they want to complain, that is where they should start. Of course you never hear a peep out of them over that horrid contract.

What are you talking about? Many here dislike that contract lol

There can also be two bad contracts at once. Jerry has done this before, you know?

 

[CowboyRoy]

1. Yes we absolutely hit a wall with adding talent once Romo was paid.

2. We don't yet know who we will add and lose for sure.

3. We do know this. Most good teams that pay a QB top dollar also don't have to pay top dollar for most of their OL, Wr, RB, to make the QB function. Guys like Brees, Brady, Rodgers, wilson etc skimp on offense cause those guys can help over come a lack of talent while the team builds defense.

Here is the angle you guys are missing.

Bloggingtheboys.com

It pays to be a quarterback (obviously). It is the most important position in the game of football so teams aren’t exactly going to risk not having someone who’s capable manning it for them. This is why the Falcons chose to pay Matt Ryan, and it’s potentially the reason why someone could pay it to Bridgewater (in terms of believing he’s capable of doing it himself).

With $30M becoming fairly normal for new quarterback contracts, the price for quarterbacks of significant accomplishments will continue to rise. Dak Prescott has a résumé that puts him in line to be paid in the upper tier. If you thought that Dak was going to sign for $30M per season, even if you thought this a year ago, you’re not going to get that wish.

Someday whatever Dak is paid will look just like this value
As you can see, Matt Ryan’s annual value is starting to look like a bargain with the new contracts rolling in. It would be a dream to have a quality quarterback locked in long-term for $30M a season, right?

Dak Prescott to as far as his annual value is concerned... it’s highly likely that two years from now it will look just as friendly as Matt Ryan’s does now. Again, Matt Ryan’s deal came just two offseasons ago and now his figure is being associated as the neighborhood that someone with as much mystery as Teddy Bridgwater could land.

There are plenty of other quarterbacks that will be paid in the years to come. As it currently stands, Pat Mahomes needs a new deal, so does Deshaun Watson. Just one year from now quarterbacks like Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, and Baker Mayfield will be eligible. A year after that Kyler Murray and Daniel Jones could get new deals. The cycle of quarterback payment life will continue to roll on and on and on as long as the NFL continues to make more money (which is highly probable).

Plenty of people have been saying that the Cowboys need to have beaten Philadelphia and the Los Angeles Rams in striking deals with Carson Wentz and Jared Goff. They obviously did not do that. Now the race is on to beat Kansas City and Houston for Mahomes and Watson, but even a deal for Teddy Bridgewater at the reported yearly value could up Prescott’s price.

The longer the Cowboys wait the higher the number is going to be. It’s simple business.

 

[Miller]

This doesn't really help him at all. The 07 Super Bowl was a shocker and legendary "taking down the giant" - Patriots won because they have two legendary people part of their dynasty. Flacco got his massive contract in 2013. Foles won the Super Bowl with Wentz under his rookie contract. Wilson under rookie contract.

x3 Brady Super Bowls, x2 Eli Manning, x1 Peyton Manning. Two of those are legendary QBs, while one of those Super Bowls was a shocker. I would say 2011 is the outlier in this case.

I just posted for consumption. Plus you can't put the Athletic article on here.

 

[CowboyRoy]

What are you talking about? Many here dislike that contract lol

There can also be two bad contracts at once. Jerry has done this before, you know?

Many many do as they should.

However I find it odd that the Dak haters dont post every other day about it like they do Dak. I also find that most Dak trolls love Zeke.

Not sure why. I guess some people just like being wrong about everything.

 

[doomsday9084]

By the way, this is a problem LEAGUE WIDE. It's not just a Prescott problem. Chiefs will probably struggle to get back to the Super Bowl as well - heck, they might not even be able to bring back Chris Jones

QB contracts are bloated and owners have allowed this to happen. They somehow managed to overvalue the most valuable position. In desperation to keep their franchise guy, they ultimately hurt other positions and, more importantly, depth.

This is the crux of it. This isn't a Dak issue. This is an economic issue where the league is over valuing QB's monetarily. It happens in any market.

At the end of the day, there is always going to be some top end QB on his rookie deal. That guy getting paid $7m is going to beat an elite QB getting paid $37m. $30m spent on other positions can get you multiple all pro players. Its obviously possible to overcome this but you have to draft extraordinarily well to even have a small window. Even then, your team will blow up when those guys leave for their own fair market deals.

Personally, I think the QB over valuation is due to legacy opinions. A long time ago, there were very few human being who could throw the ball, were 6'4" and had the requisite toughness and intelligence for the position. Nowadays, there are a lot of crossover athletes so a lot of people can throw the ball (Mahomes was a pitcher) and the advent of the mobile QB has allowed people to create space with their feet as well as their height, opening up the ability of 6'2" guys to play at an elite level.

There are a lot of guys who can be a good QB in the NFL. Many more than decades ago. If you have a good line, competent receivers and a good coach, there are dozens of players who would put up good numbers for you. There is no need to chase the elite guys unless you have an uber stud. IMHO, a lot of the QB stats are a result of circumstance as much as talent.

 

[ondaedg]

Just because I don’t want another bad contract or make Dak highest paid player doesn’t make me or anyone else a hater. I pull hard for Dak every game because he is a Cowboy. I want to build a complete team with a killer defense and think overpaying these offensive guys will impede the complete team building process.

You have every right to disagree. It's the nutjob comments from some other posters that are making it hard to have a good discussion about this. Especially the revisionist history ones. Have you even read some of the comments about Dak? My personal favorite is the one who said Dak and Moore conspired to boost Dak's numbers in garbage time so he could get a big contract.

 

[Swagger]

Huge difference between that time and now. Cowboys were consistently abusing the cap and had tons of dead money. Complete flip flop now with Stephen taking over. Cowboys have tons of money, 5th in the NFL with 70 million and well over 100 million coming next season.

So you wouldnt pay Mahomes 40 million or would you let him walk too? LOL

So what is your recipe? I would love to hear it. Keep drafting rookies and letting them walk when they turn out to be franchise guys and want big contracts? LOL

Sign journeyman QB's and hope to win a title? LOL

Leary was NOT a cap casualty any more than Jones is now. Leary had a degenerative knee problem and they didnt want to take a chance. Was more about THAT fact and the fact that they were already spending big on the line.

Anything else you need an education on?

Much of what you ask is subjective to the front office of that particular organisation.

Franchise quarterbacks to me in this league right now are: -

Mahomes
Wilson
Rodgers
Brees
Jackson
Watson
Wentz (yes I think he's worth the contract that they paid him) - some will disagree fair enough but with what he's had around him he's a franchise QB for me.
Ryan - I don't understand why/how people can argue against him being a franchise QB.

Potentially/likely in time
Kyler Murray
Sam Darnold
Daniel Jones
Josh Allen

Matt Stafford is somewhere between the two. I could understand arguments both sides. Brady is obviously in his last year or so and is not applicable at this point.

For a lot of people, Dak Prescott is on a par with the likes of...

Derek Carr
Andy Dalton
Ryan Tannehill
Jacoby Brissett
Jared Goff
Jameis Winston
Jimmy Garoppolo
Kirk Cousins

Prescott fits in somewhere in the above list. He's a good NFL QB but I would not term him a franchise QB as he has not shown me the ability to carry the team and win games when required. That's what a franchise QB is paid to do.

Many people do not want Prescott to be paid like one of the franchise QBs in the initial list.

If people consider Prescott to be a franchise QB then fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinion but that's where I, and many others, strongly disagree.

 

[atlantacowboy]

Leary was a Cowboy until 2017 and was let go because of his knee condition.

Ware wouldn't take a pay cut.

Corrections. Ware wasn't offered the opportunity to take a pay cut. Leary signed a free agent deal with Denver that we were unwilling to match.

 

[BrassCowboy]

Please all you Dak Hater's I kindly ask you answer 2 questions

1. Which players did we lose to Free Agency because of Tony Romo's Market Value setting contract?

2. Which players on the roster will we lose that we would have wanted to keep if we sign Dak to Market Value Contract.


Thank you!

Your questions are a little flawed.

First question should read: is Dak worth 38 million per year, and if not is he the guy to take this team to the Superbowl?

2nd question is did we have anyone with Romo worth worrying about keeping?