Dak Hater's Myth: We Can't Build Around a QB Market Value Contract

[cern]

"We" need to stop acting like its our money. All this arguing by fans about the business side of the equations is just nonsense. You don't make the sausage. The worst fans are the ones that think they know more about the business side of the sport than the ones conducting the actual business. Just eat the sausage a shut up about how it is made.

no one was arguing about the money. just the fact we were unable to keep certain players due to the fact romo was still owed money after he retired. if you've ever read any of my posts concerning contracts, you would know I am highly supportive of Stephen and his efforts to get players signed.

 

[mattjames2010]

Many many do as they should.

However I find it odd that the Dak haters dont post every other day about it like they do Dak. I also find that most Dak trolls love Zeke.

Not sure why. I guess some people just like being wrong about everything.

Because despite Zeke's bad contract, it's not as cap consuming as a bad contract would be for Dak. It's apples and oranges actually. A bad contract for an RB won't cripple your franchise, now a bad contract for multiple skill positions like what happened to us a decade ago will. So, I'm not against criticizing the contract Zeke got, but the posts about Dak are more warranted in terms of fear than it is for Zeke.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Much of what you ask is subjective to the front office of that particular organisation.

Franchise quarterbacks to me in this league right now are: -

Mahomes
Wilson
Rodgers
Brees
Jackson
Watson
Wentz (yes I think he's worth the contract that they paid him) - some will disagree fair enough but with what he's had around him he's a franchise QB for me.
Ryan - I don't understand why/how people can argue against him being a franchise QB.

Potentially/likely in time
Kyler Murray
Sam Darnold
Daniel Jones
Josh Allen

Matt Stafford is somewhere between the two. I could understand arguments both sides. Brady is obviously in his last year or so and is not applicable at this point.

For a lot of people, Dak Prescott is on a par with the likes of...

Derek Carr
Andy Dalton
Ryan Tannehill
Jacoby Brissett
Jared Goff
Jameis Winston
Jimmy Garoppolo
Kirk Cousins

Prescott fits in somewhere in the above list. He's a good NFL QB but I would not term him a franchise QB as he has not shown me the ability to carry the team and win games when required. That's what a franchise QB is paid to do.

Many people do not want Prescott to be paid like one of the franchise QBs in the initial list.

If people consider Prescott to be a franchise QB then fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinion but that's where I, and many others, strongly disagree.

LOL.............your lists are so biased and obvious its laughable. Love how you ONLY make Two lists.

Every list I have EVER seen has the top 5 as "Elite" and then go from there.

Take away the top 5 and Dak is definitely in the last of the next 5-7 QB's, Right in there with Wentz and Ryan.

You simply represent a group of fans that honestly dont understand what a franchise QB is or how to judge them. Is not surprise you fumbled it here on your list.

My god, Wentz has never even played a full season yet in 4 years. Dak hasnt missed a game. Then go ahead and compare numbers any way you like.

 

[cern]

And those of you that feel the need to fuss and discuss about those issues are the reason the offseason topics get so crazy. Good job detracting from the readership.

you're sounding remarkably like rockport now.

 

[cern]

While I may disagree with some opinions on the matter, the message board is here so "we" can discuss these matters. But clearly the "we" used in the post your quoted was referring to the Cowboys still needing to account for salary cap dollars for Romo after he was no longer with the team.

it was obvious to the more astute among us.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Because despite Zeke's bad contract, it's not as cap consuming as a bad contract would be for Dak. It's apples and oranges actually. A bad contract for an RB won't cripple your franchise, now a bad contract for multiple skill positions like what happened to us a decade ago will. So, I'm not against criticizing the contract Zeke got, but the posts about Dak are more warranted in terms of fear than it is for Zeke.

Its the exact opposite actually. Overpaying at the RB position is a killer. Its the ONE obvious position that you can save money. QB is just going to be expensive, no way around it. They are the most important position. You dont have a franchise QB and things look grim. OR dont you remember the 15 years before Romo?

Crippling our franchise is when you DONT have a franchise QB, which we definitely do.

Crippling our franchise is singing journeyman QB's and drafting QB's that dont pan out and developing them anyway.

And then of course there is the fact that the Cowboys are in GREAT position with the Cap. Something most of you dont like to talk about.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The Cowboys were non factors in FA not because of Romo's contract but because of all the dead money from renegotiating contracts that added dead money down the road. This started the very first year the cap came into existence and that vicious cycle continued until about 2 or 3 years ago when Stephen finally said that cycle has to stop.
.

But the same thing happened with Romo's contract. It was simply a continuation of a poor management policy.

 

[OmerV]

No, he is simply pointing out if you give a big contract to a QB, what you will NEED to overcome lack of talent around you is an elite QB. That's it. Because it's factual. He never mentioned how difficult it was, you added that. He also mentioned offensive line, which you left out - which is far more important than skill positions. Both Rodgers and Wilson have had to put up with shoddy offensive lines throughout their careers, some being the worst in the league. As for Brees, it was the opposite problem - the Saints provided him weapons, but he had to put up with bad defenses. He now has a defense, but outside of Thomas and Kamara, one of the biggest problems Brees has is that he doesn't have much in the way of talent to throw to - which is why they brought in Dez in 2018 and even entertained Antonio Brown.

And you don't know how it would have played out with Brees if he stayed with the Chargers. What they got was Brees on his rookie deal until 2005, then he was ultimately traded, just to get Rivers on his rookie deal.

Again, who are these "elite" QB's, and where do you get them. We just established that the "elite" QB's the other poster mentioned were drafted between 15-20 years ago. Pretending we can just find one of those when we want is not real world.

It's also not real world to think that quality starting QBs can be retained without big contracts. That's just the nature of things today - supply and demand - the market for QB's.
Garappolo got a big contract and he only started 3 games in his career before coming to SF. Wentz hasn't accomplished as much as Dak, and he got a big contract. Cousins got a big contact 2 years ago and he hadn't accomplished anything. That's the world NFL teams live in. If you deny it, you get left behind.

 

[817Gill]

It's not just about "rookie deal", it's the TYPE of deal QBs get. Again, Rodgers got his contract BEFORE he was even regarded as an elite QB. Joe Flacco's contract came in 2013, after the Super Bowl - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...accos-ravens-contract-includes-52m-guaranteed - very little playoff success, 0 Super Bowl wins after. Patriots had the benefit of Brady giving them discounts in recent years, and they won a Super Bowl with Brady when he was on his rookie deal (his 2002 contract wasn't anything gigantic and didn't take much cap hit until 2005) - after which, it took them a decade to win another Super Bowl.

So again, what you have is the Manning brothers and Tom Brady. Two of those QBs are all-time greats, and Eli who had two historic throws against the greatest dynasty in sports history. So we either need a ton of luck, the next greatest coach in sports history, or legendary QBs.

Nice, still furthering my original point that each SB winner is different and the circumstances and strategies placed to get there are unique to each winner. Posters who believe the only way to win is with a QB on a rookie deal and think Mahomes and Wilson’s fall off trees are so disillusioned it’s hilarious.

Thank you for doing the dirty work and showing how each QB contract situation is unique in its own right. Maybe some posters will stop trying to trade the house for a shot in the dark QB prospect. Great work my man!

Oh, and I know you understand that the cap hits in the first few years of a Dak extension are not gonna be anywhere near the announced yearly number. So there is a window to win even with a big deal getting signed.

 

[cern]

Breaking the rules of the forum with impunity. How must that feel? You get away with that crap repeatedly. Who's feet did you kiss to be untouchable around here?

The sausage making shouldn't even be a topic. It just reveals the lack of knowledge that the average fan has when it comes to the business side of the house. They talk like they know something but they don't and you talk crap with the best of them. You are so full of it.

I said we still owed tony money. as simple a statement as that was, you seemed unable to comprehend and tried to turn it into something else. and when others have pointed our the error of your inference, you continue to defend your position. your stance is untenable. at the least, obtuse.

 

[OmerV]

When you have your mind made up that Prescott is "average," there's no real point debating that sort of mentality. Some believe Prescott has elite talent at every position including coaching, while others have "no names."

I think the problem is fans judge him against Brees, Rodgers, Brady and Mahomes. Most of us would agree he's not that level, but a person has to realistically understand that QBs at that level are very rare. 3 of those guys were drafted between 15-20 years ago - that's how rare they are. We all would love to have a QB like that, but dumping a quality QB looking for a needle in a haystack is not a good plan.

 

[817Gill]

oh yeah they have done well, just that their 3-6th rounders were at the beginning of rounds which often means you are getting 2nd round talent in the third and so on.
They will now have to deal with the cap issues of having to pay those draft picks.
Hopefully we will indeed draft talent and adapt scheme to make it work.

Dude a pick at the beginning of the 5th round isn’t much different to pick late in round 6 lol. After the top 75ish prospects, it’s a crapshoot. No one has an inherit advantage drafting at #132 than at pick #188.

Regardless, draft well in the mid rounds and you can build the middle of your roster.

 

[cern]

Eh, we gained 14M dollars on the cap when we released Romo. The dead money we owed him we spread over the next two seasons. We went from 6M under the cap to 20M once Romo was designated a June 1st cut.

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/co...o-release-official-cowboys-have-room-to-spare

Leary was never going to be resigned man, we just got La’el and he was starting over Leary. Only reason Ron got in at LG was because of LC’s injury. Team wasn’t going to pay 5 o-lineman lol one had to go and they chose the younger more talented player. When you already have 3 lineman you pay, and then a highly touted young guy coming in, it makes 0 sense to pay for a left guard. No matter what cap space you have

la'el had to be moved to make up for doug free's departure. we weren't nearly as strong at the lg position when leary left. he was that good.

 

[Swagger]

LOL.............your lists are so biased and obvious its laughable. Love how you ONLY make Two lists.

Every list I have EVER seen has the top 5 as "Elite" and then go from there.

Take away the top 5 and Dak is definitely in the last of the next 5-7 QB's, Right in there with Wentz and Ryan.

You simply represent a group of fans that honestly dont understand what a franchise QB is or how to judge them. Is not surprise you fumbled it here on your list.

My god, Wentz has never even played a full season yet in 4 years. Dak hasnt missed a game. Then go ahead and compare numbers any way you like.

How are the lists biased? Dak Prescott has very similar stats to Andy Dalton during the early part of his career. I like Dalton, he's a good QB but he isn't worth franchise money. People seem to take great offense to Prescott not being regarded as elite but the reality is that there's a strong argument that no other quarterback has had a better position to succeed on offense over the past four seasons than Dak Prescott. By jove! Sam Darnold would LOVE to have been brought in to this type of set up.

I left off a few guys like Case Keenum, Baker Mayfield who I wouldn't even have on a par with the guys on the second list and Prescott is above both of them in my view.

In another thread I provided the stats for Prescott and Ryan over the past four seasons and Ryan has clearly outplayed him. It's just clear to anyone that understands what a franchise QB actually is. He was the regular season MVP in 2016, he would have helped his team win the Superbowl had their Head Coach not had a brain freeze (although he just did it again...). Wentz would and should have been the regular season MVP in 2017. They are just both better quarterbacks than Dak Prescott!

Wentz just played 16/16 regular season games so...he outplayed Prescott in the biggest game of the regular season with a depleted team. That's a franchise QB. Wentz actually played a little longer than Prescott last season before he suffered a concussion in the play offs.

So if a quarterback is durable then that makes him a franchise QB in your eyes - is that the main criteria that you look for?

Wow.

 

[817Gill]

la'el had to be moved to make up for doug free's departure. we weren't nearly as strong at the lg position when leary left. he was that good.

Oh I’m not saying Leary couldn’t play, it’s just a numbers game in a position group. Can’t pay 5 lineman lol. You don’t pay your 4th best lineman like he’s your best, and that’s what his salary in Denver was. No team in our situation woulda matched that, especially with a young lineman coming up the pipeline.

 

[kskboys]

Please all you Dak Hater's I kindly ask you answer 2 questions

1. Which players did we lose to Free Agency because of Tony Romo's Market Value setting contract?

2. Which players on the roster will we lose that we would have wanted to keep if we sign Dak to Market Value Contract.


Thank you!

You missed the point.

This is about being able to build a super bowl contender. Romo's contract is actually the opposite of your point. We could not get over the hump and become a super bowl contender under Romo. It wasn't just his contract, but cap strapping contracts were a huge reason. Our backups were horrific, and that was a huge reason we couldn't advance. We never could find legit players to form a super bowl D around Ware. Once again, huge contracts got in the way.

It is pretty funny though that the example you used disproved your point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[G2]

I think the problem is fans judge him against Brees, Rodgers, Brady and Mahomes. Most of us would agree he's not that level, but a person has to realistically understand that QBs at that level are very rare. 3 of those guys were drafted between 15-20 years ago - that's how rare they are. We all would love to have a QB like that, but dumping a quality QB looking for a needle in a haystack is not a good plan.

I agree, Prescott isn't at the elite level. There's nothing wrong with admitting that. That being said, none of those guys are realistically "carrying the team." There is plenty of talent around them and great coaching.

 

[JoeKing]

Go change your tampon and take your midol.

That sexist comment is yet another infraction of this forum that you break with impunity. It must be nice to be untouchable.

 

[CowboyRoy]

How are the lists biased? Dak Prescott has very similar stats to Andy Dalton during the early part of his career. I like Dalton, he's a good QB but he isn't worth franchise money. People seem to take great offense to Prescott not being regarded as elite but the reality is that there's a strong argument that no other quarterback has had a better position to succeed on offense over the past four seasons than Dak Prescott. By jove! Sam Darnold would LOVE to have been brought in to this type of set up.

I left off a few guys like Case Keenum, Baker Mayfield who I wouldn't even have on a par with the guys on the second list and Prescott is above both of them in my view.

In another thread I provided the stats for Prescott and Ryan over the past four seasons and Ryan has clearly outplayed him. It's just clear to anyone that understands what a franchise QB actually is. He was the regular season MVP in 2016, he would have helped his team win the Superbowl had their Head Coach not had a brain freeze (although he just did it again...). Wentz would and should have been the regular season MVP in 2017. They are just both better quarterbacks than Dak Prescott!

Wentz just played 16/16 regular season games so...he outplayed Prescott in the biggest game of the regular season with a depleted team. That's a franchise QB. Wentz actually played a little longer than Prescott last season before he suffered a concussion in the play offs.

So if a quarterback is durable then that makes him a franchise QB in your eyes - is that the main criteria that you look for?

Wow.

Ryan has had a better career, but you are comparing a guy only in the league his first 4 years to a guy that was in the prime of his career during that span. This shows a total disconnect in that regard.

You going to take Ryan going forward or Dak? One is going downhill and the other is getting better. Not to mention that Ryan isnt an option. How you going to get Ryan?

Dalton and Dak I wont even debate, its just silly. Dalton wont even be starting in this league next year.

Its actually quite remarkable what Dak has done his first 4 years in the NFL given the fact that Garrett and Linehan have been coaching him.

And Wentz is your man? LOL Thats pretty funny. And your evidence is ONE game last year where his team won? Im sorry, did Wentz have some kind of historic game?

Who wins the game if Garrett is coaching the Eagles and we have Pederson?

I guess you like QB's that cant finish seasons?

Compare any stats you want between Wentz and Dak, I guess you focused on one game because its all you got? Next thing you are going go tell me that Wentz has won a SB.

 

[cern]

That sexist comment is yet another infraction of this forum that you break with impunity. It must be nice to be untouchable.

it would be sexist only if said to a woman. clearly you are not.

 

[JoeKing]

I said we still owed tony money. as simple a statement as that was, you seemed unable to comprehend and tried to turn it into something else. and when others have pointed our the error of your inference, you continue to defend your position. your stance is untenable. at the least, obtuse.

no one was arguing about the money. just the fact we were unable to keep certain players due to the fact romo was still owed money after he retired. if you've ever read any of my posts concerning contracts, you would know I am highly supportive of Stephen and his efforts to get players signed.

Arguing about money is all over this thread. Your insistence to the contrary says tons about you. Anyone can just look for themselves and see you are wrong.

No players were lost because of Romo's contract. If they were players the Cowboys wanted to keep they were given the option to restructure their contract. Players like Ware who refused to restructure their contracts were cut. That was their choice. Romo was still owed money after he retired because he too restructured his contract to be spread out over a longer period of time.