Defining a "Bust"

ShiningStar said:
Jerry changed the game. Now the Empire of the Cowboys is his goal, make money year round, dont worry about the SB, and keep the media talking. Win win.
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Jones helped create a revenue-making monster for the National Football League. Being the primary reason for winning three league championships? Not so much.
 
DallasEast said:
Jones helped create a revenue-making monster for the National Football League. Being the primary reason for winning three league championships? Not so much.
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There is nothing that happened with the NFL that wouldn’t have happened without Jerry Jones. Stop looking for ways to credit this guy. He made himself general manager and he stinks at it. That’s his legacy.
 
KingCorcoran said:
There is nothing that happened with the NFL that wouldn’t have happened without Jerry Jones. Stop looking for ways to credit this guy. He made himself general manager, and he stinks at it. That’s his legacy.
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Lol. I can dislike Jerry Jones for what he has not done primarily as a general manager, while acknowledging what he has done that had nothing to do with football operations.
  • He signed huge, lucrative corporate sponsorship deals. The league sued him for not obeying established NFL corporate sponsorship agreements. He countersued and won. The other owners copied him.
  • His lawsuit forced the NFL to stop sharing merchandising revenue evenly. Afterwards, his and other franchises with stronger brand recognition increased their profits exponentially.
  • He was far more aggressive than the league's usual negotiation tactics for securing network television deals.
  • He was equally and singularly more aggressive than other owners pushing their franchise's brand internationally. They began copying his strategy afterwards.
All of the above collectively boosted the values of the owners' franchises by approximately 450% from 1995 to 2004.

No one has to look for anything to credit Jones for what he actually did for the league off the field. It happened. It's reality. Despite those who would disagree, he was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame almost totally for the way he enriched all his peers. It was his reward.

Can't argue the league would have eventually done what Jones did. Greed has always inspired innovative thinking. What might have happened does not dismiss what actually happened, though.

I do not appreciate defending Jones in any way, shape, or form. Now, I would like to go back to criticizing his lifelong football stupidity only. :)
 
DallasEast said:
Lol. I can dislike Jerry Jones for what he has not done primarily as a general manager, while acknowledging what he has done that had nothing to do with football operations.
  • He signed huge, lucrative corporate sponsorship deals. The league sued him for not obeying established NFL corporate sponsorship agreements. He countersued and won. The other owners copied him.
  • His lawsuit forced the NFL to stop sharing merchandising revenue evenly. Afterwards, his and other franchises with stronger brand recognition increased their profits exponentially.
  • He was far more aggressive than the league's usual negotiation tactics for securing network television deals.
  • He was equally and singularly more aggressive than other owners pushing their franchise's brand internationally. They began copying his strategy afterwards.
All of the above collectively boosted the values of the owners' franchises by approximately 450% from 1995 to 2004.

No one has to look for anything to credit Jones for what he actually did for the league off the field. It happened. It's reality. Despite those who would disagree, he was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame almost totally for the way he enriched all his peers. It was his reward.

Can't argue the league would have eventually done what Jones did. Greed has always inspired innovative thinking. What might have happened does not dismiss what actually happened, though.

I do not appreciate defending Jones in any way, shape, or form. Now, I would like to go back to criticizing his lifelong football stupidity only. :)
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To suggest the NFL would not be what it is today sans Jerry Jones is an extension of the same Cowboys style delusion that has Jerry suggesting the current iteration of the team is playoff caliber. It’s simply not true.
 
KingCorcoran said:
To suggest the NFL would not be what it is today sans Jerry Jones is an extension of the same Cowboys style delusion that has Jerry suggesting the current iteration of the team is playoff caliber. It’s simply not true.
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Embedded within the quote you just replied to:

DallasEast said:
Can't argue the league would have eventually done what Jones did. Greed has always inspired innovative thinking. What might have happened does not dismiss what actually happened, though.
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I never suggested anything that counters what you initially stated. I merely pointed out what Jones did in the 1990's and how it impacted the league's financial growth from that point forward.
 
DallasEast said:
Embedded within the quote you just replied to:


I never suggested anything that counters what you initially stated. I merely pointed out what Jones did in the 1990's and how it impacted the league's financial growth from that point forward.
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My point is the league would be better off without Jerry Jones associated with it. Lord knows the Cowboys would.
 
A bust is a sculpted or cast representation of the upper part of the human body, depicting a person's head and neck, and a variable portion of the chest and shoulders. The piece is normally supported by a plinth. The bust is generally a portrait intended to record the appearance of an individual, but may sometimes represent a type. They may be of any medium used for sculpture, such as marble, bronze, terracotta, plaster, wax or wood.

Go Cowboys!
 
plasticman said:
I am interested in a quantified definition of a bust, some statistical qualification. Without a standard definition, it is difficult to evaluate the Cowboys drafting history versus other teams. There is also a very wide range of expectations from fans, in general.

For now, I am going to go with a very basic definition as it pertains only to 1st round picks. We can modify this definition eventually, but I choose 1st round picks only because they have the most impact on the future of the franchise that drafted them. The higher they are drafted in the 1st round, the more it detriments the team if that pick failed.

By going with a basic definition, we should all be able to agree that those players fitting the definition are definitely busts. Obviously, there are those that might wish to expand the definition and I wouldn't disagree with that premise, but for now, let's keep it to a definition that produces no controversy when it comes to whether or not that player is a "bust"

1st Round Bust - Any player drafted in the 1st round that lasted 4 or less years in the NFL.

Again, this definition is not all-inclusive, I understand that. However, I also believe that there could be no disagreement that the players fitting this definition are, indeed, busts.

When I generate a list of 1st round picks that lasted 4 years or less in the NFL, I can also count how many of them were drafted by particular teams.

Now, I cannot include any player drafted in the 1st round over the past three years because they have not been given the full period of time to demonstrate whether or not they are busts....by the exact definition used.

I looked at all drafts between 1990 and 2019. All a player has to do to qualify being on the list is retire before their 5th season and be a 1st round pick.

Between 1990 and 2019, there are 122 players that fit this description.

Breakdown by position with highest drafted bust at that position in parenthesis:

QB - 22 (JeMarcus Russell, Raiders)
WR - 17 (Charles Rogers, Lions)
DT - 14 (Jonathan Sullivan, Saints)
DE - 14 ((Soloman Thomas, 49ers)
T - 12 (Jason Smith, Cardinals)
LB - 11 (Trev Alberts, Colts)
CB - 10 (Bruce Pickens, Falcons)
G - 3 (Jonathan Cooper, Cardinals)
S - 3 (Calvin Pryor, Jets)

The leading team in drafting 1st round busts is surprising, you wouldn't think that the 49ers have ten players on that list. From 2010 to 2019, that averaged a 1st round bust every four years. Cleveland is in 2nd place with eight. The Eagles are also high with six. In the 49ers case it would be fair to mention that the majority of theuir 1st round busts were lbottom first round picks, late 20's.

Here is the shocker. The team with the least 1st round busts from 1990 to 2019 is the Dallas Cowboys. They have one, Taco Charlton. Again, we are strictly defining what a bust is.

Naturally, the lower the pick is in the 1st round, the more frequent the busts. if you were to divide the 1st round into quarters,

Top quarter, picks 1 to 8 have 25 busts
2nd quarter, picks 9 to 16 have 26 busts
3rd quarter, picks 17 to 24 have 31 busts
Bottom quarter, picks 25 to 32 have 40 busts

College program with most 1st round busts: Ohio State with 7. Other programs with 5-6 busts include Florida, Florida State and Wisconsin.

Obviously, there are other ways to define a bust for 1st round picks. The expectation might be a career starter. if they were a starter less than, say 25% of all games during their career, for instance. it could be any 1st round pick that participated in 50 or less games in their career.

Some expect their 1st round picks to be Pro Bowlers. However, there is 256 1st round picks participating in the NFL this season with only about 80 players selected as Pro Bowlers which would define around 80% of all 1st round picks as busts.

So what does all this imply?

The Cowboys issues are not the result of a lack of top tier talent. It is something else that is holding them back. Something is preventing the Cowboys from benefiting from their top tier talent.
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I think the easiest definition:

When a player can’t play football at a high level.
 
plasticman said:
I am interested in a quantified definition of a bust, some statistical qualification. Without a standard definition, it is difficult to evaluate the Cowboys drafting history versus other teams. There is also a very wide range of expectations from fans, in general.

For now, I am going to go with a very basic definition as it pertains only to 1st round picks. We can modify this definition eventually, but I choose 1st round picks only because they have the most impact on the future of the franchise that drafted them. The higher they are drafted in the 1st round, the more it detriments the team if that pick failed.

By going with a basic definition, we should all be able to agree that those players fitting the definition are definitely busts. Obviously, there are those that might wish to expand the definition and I wouldn't disagree with that premise, but for now, let's keep it to a definition that produces no controversy when it comes to whether or not that player is a "bust"

1st Round Bust - Any player drafted in the 1st round that lasted 4 or less years in the NFL.

Again, this definition is not all-inclusive, I understand that. However, I also believe that there could be no disagreement that the players fitting this definition are, indeed, busts.

When I generate a list of 1st round picks that lasted 4 years or less in the NFL, I can also count how many of them were drafted by particular teams.

Now, I cannot include any player drafted in the 1st round over the past three years because they have not been given the full period of time to demonstrate whether or not they are busts....by the exact definition used.

I looked at all drafts between 1990 and 2019. All a player has to do to qualify being on the list is retire before their 5th season and be a 1st round pick.

Between 1990 and 2019, there are 122 players that fit this description.

Breakdown by position with highest drafted bust at that position in parenthesis:

QB - 22 (JeMarcus Russell, Raiders)
WR - 17 (Charles Rogers, Lions)
DT - 14 (Jonathan Sullivan, Saints)
DE - 14 ((Soloman Thomas, 49ers)
T - 12 (Jason Smith, Cardinals)
LB - 11 (Trev Alberts, Colts)
CB - 10 (Bruce Pickens, Falcons)
G - 3 (Jonathan Cooper, Cardinals)
S - 3 (Calvin Pryor, Jets)

The leading team in drafting 1st round busts is surprising, you wouldn't think that the 49ers have ten players on that list. From 2010 to 2019, that averaged a 1st round bust every four years. Cleveland is in 2nd place with eight. The Eagles are also high with six. In the 49ers case it would be fair to mention that the majority of theuir 1st round busts were lbottom first round picks, late 20's.

Here is the shocker. The team with the least 1st round busts from 1990 to 2019 is the Dallas Cowboys. They have one, Taco Charlton. Again, we are strictly defining what a bust is.

Naturally, the lower the pick is in the 1st round, the more frequent the busts. if you were to divide the 1st round into quarters,

Top quarter, picks 1 to 8 have 25 busts
2nd quarter, picks 9 to 16 have 26 busts
3rd quarter, picks 17 to 24 have 31 busts
Bottom quarter, picks 25 to 32 have 40 busts

College program with most 1st round busts: Ohio State with 7. Other programs with 5-6 busts include Florida, Florida State and Wisconsin.

Obviously, there are other ways to define a bust for 1st round picks. The expectation might be a career starter. if they were a starter less than, say 25% of all games during their career, for instance. it could be any 1st round pick that participated in 50 or less games in their career.

Some expect their 1st round picks to be Pro Bowlers. However, there is 256 1st round picks participating in the NFL this season with only about 80 players selected as Pro Bowlers which would define around 80% of all 1st round picks as busts.

So what does all this imply?

The Cowboys issues are not the result of a lack of top tier talent. It is something else that is holding them back. Something is preventing the Cowboys from benefiting from their top tier talent.
Click to expand...
Several of the players you listed were in the NFL for more than 4 years.

Solomon Thomas?


1st Round Bust - Any player drafted in the 1st round that lasted 4 or less years in the NFL.
 
xwalker said:
Several of the players you listed were in the NFL for more than 4 years.

Solomon Thomas?


1st Round Bust - Any player drafted in the 1st round that lasted 4 or less years in the NFL.
Click to expand...
You are right, I just noticed that last night. I used the parameter of 50 or less games up to the year 2020 and drafted up to 2017. I should have used the filter of non-active because it absorbed some recent players still active. My bad.
 
That something is depth. We are a top heavy team, and we have too many dumb players. Not to start a Jimmy Johnson conversation , but jimmy didn’t draft or tolerate dumb players. We really need to do a better job of not letting combine raw numbers dictate everything. There needs to be some credence given not only to a guys shuttle time but also football intelligence and character.
 
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