Difference between "questions" and "hopeless"

[Donny Phoenix]

Good post and assessments. I dont see the questions as an excuse to write off hope. Tho I can see why some may not want their hopes dashed yet again. There are a few of the questions that i would expect to perform well, but they are still questions. I say "expect" in the sense of your mom expects you to do your chores before you go outside to play. There will be clear consequences if they do not play well, so i expect quality play from them. Those being: Bruce Carter, JJ Wilcox(think he's gonna be good), Henry Melton, and Mo Claiborne. I think the D will be better than expected. Color me hopeful, with a chance of they may not be what we thought they were.

 

[12+88=7]

When I look at a defense, I look at the points allowed versus yards allowed.

Dallas allowed 27 points per game last year, that was 26th in the NFL.

If the defense can get to the 21 points allowed range this team will win the division and would be a legit playoff team.

 

[JBS]

Don't forget god marinelli

He can rush the passer, intercept the ball, cover the flats, and lay the wood on receivers going over the middle

 

[ShiningStar]

safety and lack of pass rush has been hurting this team. you can have teh best corners but if the line isnt forcing the plays or making things happen, nothing they can do short of watching good offenses pick them apart and play the best they can. have they always played the best, no, but i dont think many players on the D play their hearts out because there was no place for this team to go.

 

[Idgit]

I wasn't really trying to be pessimistic; I prefer realistic - but I get that there's a thin line between both. As far as Wilcox's position, I didnt' intend there to be a ranking system in terms of how I believe each player will contribute based on where they appeared. I just wrote as their name came to mind, which is why I left a few guys off the list by accident, like Crawford.

I think you were very realistic. But then, you almost always are.

This looks to me like a defense with a ton of question marks and relatively limited upside overall. Still, there are some good players here, and as xwalker points out, we've done a lot to upgrade some of the very weakest spots from last season without a lot of flash. We've got some better lunchpails.

And I think his point about stability is perhaps the most significant point of all. If nothing else, we'll have some unremarkable players playing a lot of snaps still, but we've got more of them, and some guys with some upside, and they'll at least be all on the same page.

 

[jnday]

tl, dr

But I agree lol

It easy to see this defense playing well and completely collapsing because of how many unknowns there are

Is there one single position on this defense that can be considered solid with no questions surrounding the players that are penciled in to play the positions? It seems like there are tons of "ifs" , "buts", and "maybes" with the whole group. That is scary and leads to doubts.

 

[jday]

When I look at a defense, I look at the points allowed versus yards allowed.

Dallas allowed 27 points per game last year, that was 26th in the NFL.

If the defense can get to the 21 points allowed range this team will win the division and would be a legit playoff team.

I see what your saying - trouble is your basing your opinion all on what happened last year. Your assuming that 21 point averaged allowed will be considered passable this year, when for all we know, this year that will rank close to last. Second, your assuming the NFCE opponents will be just as bad as they were last year...and that, in my opinion, is a BIG question. I honestly believe the Commanders in particular will be better than most are predicting. Lastly, as I've mentioned in other threads, if you are going to count on our team being better by merit of experience, you have to consider both sides of that possible truth: so will our opponents.

 

[jday]

Don't forget god marinelli

He can rush the passer, intercept the ball, cover the flats, and lay the wood on receivers going over the middle

My belief in Marinelli is he gets the most out of players. But, with all the questions outlined, it's hard to predict where that ceiling is.

 

[jday]

I think you were very realistic. But then, you almost always are.

This looks to me like a defense with a ton of question marks and relatively limited upside overall. Still, there are some good players here, and as xwalker points out, we've done a lot to upgrade some of the very weakest spots from last season without a lot of flash. We've got some better lunchpails.

And I think his point about stability is perhaps the most significant point of all. If nothing else, we'll have some unremarkable players playing a lot of snaps still, but we've got more of them, and some guys with some upside, and they'll at least be all on the same page.

I would add to that last point that they'll hopefyully all still be here after preseason and through the majority of the season, so we don't have to once again scrape the bottom of the free agent barrell.

 

[jday]

Is there one single position on this defense that can be considered solid with no questions surrounding the players that are penciled in to play the positions? It seems like there are tons of "ifs" , "buts", and "maybes" with the whole group. That is scary and leads to doubts.

No doubt. (Pun intended). But I still say of the group, with Scandrick and Church we pretty much know what we are getting.

 

[Future]

Is there one single position on this defense that can be considered solid with no questions surrounding the players that are penciled in to play the positions? It seems like there are tons of "ifs" , "buts", and "maybes" with the whole group. That is scary and leads to doubts.

Yea, but on the flip side, it leaves room for hope and optimism.

In the same way that you could have doubts about, say, JJ Wilcox, its easy to see the athleticism and think he could make a jump and be a good player this year. Same with guys like Crawford, Holloman, Wilber, and even Claiborne.

 

[xwalker]

Very good response. Thanks for taking the time.

Durant coming off the field in the Nickel is something I actually had forgotten about and it's huge because the Nickel takes up a big part of the defensive sets offered in a given game.

I perhaps unfairly included McClain with the no-names/jag group simply because I really don't know that much about him. My understanding though is he showed some flash early in his career and fell off...though, I certainly could be wrong.

In terms of worried, Lawrence tops my list. I honestly feel based on the footage I was able to see and the scouting reports I have read, that Lawrence was reach-by-necessity. The top tier guys were off the board and the Cowboys really needed to inject youth into the line. But here's hoping you and the Cowboys see something I don't or can't.

Okoye's mysterious injury that prevent's him from playing that has nothing to do with physical ability and yet they refuse to share details has me concerned. That's a big "we will see!"

You may be right on Mincey - I simply looked at the stats and said "What?"

As far as suprise players, you can always a bet on at least 1 of the no-names/ jags showing up out of nowhere. That is one of my favorite things about being a Cowboys fan - it seems to happen for them more than anybody. Now if 3 or 4 guys could do that this year, we might really have something.

Lawrence might have been the most well developed DE in the draft. He was not as good of an athlete as Clowney and Barr, but he plays with good technique and he has good arm length and big (11") and strong hands. He was a better against the run than many of the other WDE types like Barr. Marinelli says that his snap anticipation is excellent also.

They specifically targeted Mincey and McClain in free agency.

The Cowboys have tried to maximize their probability of having decent NFL players that are healthy instead of focusing on unreliable Star players. They've increased their probability with numbers. They have a bunch of players with NFL physical ability and they'll let competition dictate who they keep. This time last year, they didn't have enough numbers at positions like DL because they had locked themselves into players like Ware, Spencer, Ratliff, etc..

Maybe Okoye has a venereal disease.

 

[BigStar]

Good post and overview of the "talent" on D and the many questions surrounding the squad this season in terms of improving from last year's horror show. Good points about Hatcher's production needing replacement via sack totals. Hatcher will never sniff 11 sacks again and didn't result in the team having a consistent "push" in the middle or even an average pass rush taking the other player production into account. He just wasn't enough of a difference maker considering his age and investment previously put forth towards the DL with Ware, Spencer, Rat, etc.

This team needs a LB (preferably Carter) to step up and become a playmaker in this D. The 4-3 WLB should be making many tackles and "protected" from the DL. Carter is admittedly bad at disengaging from blockers, but why are they allowed their hands on him with such regularity? I believe Rod went over where Carter will line up as to protect him from the OL and hope this accommodates this aspect. XWalker pointed to McClain's potential impact as the new 1 tech in taking over for Hayden and I hope his impact is as strong as stated. However, I am a little skeptical seeing as how he signed for so cheap and so fast; right out of the gate in FA. He doesn't play a glamour position but would think some other teams would sniff around that kind of talent. All that said, it was for peanuts and this team deserves a FA steal after the gaffes or unfortunate results (still looking @ Rivera and his bum back) No...you let it go.

Wilcox could really be the saving grace for this D if he can play centerfield or at least play formidable coverage when transferring coverage assignments (Cover 2/3). XWalker also updated me on his coverage skills in the Senior Bowl last year; covering WR's better than some of the corners and excelling, etc. Church still needs to be replaced (just. too. slow) DLaw seems to be the only pure "pass rusher" we have and he is a rook. I was ready for this when Ware was released and we didn't resign Hatch. Sometimes it will take a season of finding out what you got.

 

[AsthmaField]

In terms of worried, Lawrence tops my list. I honestly feel based on the footage I was able to see and the scouting reports I have read, that Lawrence was reach-by-necessity. The top tier guys were off the board and the Cowboys really needed to inject youth into the line. But here's hoping you and the Cowboys see something I don't or can't.

There are quite a few people who are unconvinced that Lawrence will be good, and I think that is because he didn't run a blazing time in his 40 like Barr or Clowney did (although he did run much better at his pro day). However, there is so much that goes into making a good pass rusher and only a small portion of that has to do with a players 40 time.

There are examples of DE's who ran a bad to horrible 40 time and were actually very good pass rushers. Terrell Suggs is one that immediately comes to mind. Michael Strahan and Greg Ellis are a couple of others off the top of my head. Quickness, anticipation, smarts, strength, an understanding of leverage... these are all things that are just as important for a DE as pure straight line speed is.

xwalker mentioned Lawrence's technique, arm length, and his strong hands, and he is exactly right. Those things will help him in the fighting that goes on along the line of scrimmage. Attitude is huge for a DE, and it is something that I've always griped about with Ware. Lawrence plays with an edge and has a nasty streak. That too will help a lot.

Also, while he didn't run as fast as Clowney and Barr... he doesn't take a backseat in the athleticism dept. Lawrence is extremely athletic, with terrific body control, balance and really quick hands and feet. Again, those things mean more than a fast 40 time. He also plays with good leverage, which really, is something you either do naturally or you don't. Coaches can try to teach that, and they can to an extent, but really, either it comes natural or it doesn't.

I have always looked at playing DE and getting after the QB as something that is somewhat of a knack. Some people are good at it and most aren't. Lawrence walked in and made an impact at DE right away at Boise State. His natural ability to rush the QB was on display from the very start of his career there. What Marinelli saw in Lawrence I think, is a guy who is a natural pass rusher. Someone who just knows how to get to the QB, and has plenty of athletic ability to do it at the NFL level. He saw a guy who uses his long arms, big strong hands, terrific athleticism, and a relentless nature to make plays in the backfield, and he was pretty desperate to get a guy like that on his DL.

Here is what NFL.com says about Lawrence:

"Highly athletic. Fluid, flexible and rangy. Terrific balance and body control. Has quick, coordinated hands and feet to slingshot off blocks. Has natural pass-rush ability -- shows burst, bend and closing speed to hunt down quarterbacks. Dips inside suddenly. Terrific knee and ankle flexion -- flattens efficiently and redirects and accelerates smoothly. Explosive tackler. Made an instant impact at BSU and was productive behind the line of scrimmage -- 34 TFL and 20 sacks from 2012-13. Carries a swagger and plays with attitude."


What you notice about that is a lot of what xwalker and myself have been saying about him: Highly athletic, fluid, flexible and rangy. He is a terrific athlete despite not having a rare 40 time. They talk about his coordinated hands and feet, and that is vital to a great pass rusher. They talk about his knee and ankle bend and how smoothly he plays.

As for his negatives, there aren't a whole lot and those that are there either won't matter that much in Marinelli's defense (a tad undersized for DE), don't matter because he isn't an OLB (isn't used to playing coverage), or isn't a negative to me (plays with an attitude).

This is too long, so I will just say that I think a whole lot of fans are underestimating Lawrence's athletic ability, his natural pass rush ability, his lateral agility and the strength in his hands.

Also, not many are talking about the edge he plays with and what it can do not only for his game... but for the entire DL. That should not be overlooked. It is something we've been needing in Dallas for a long time, and Lawrence has it in spades.

You should start getting excited about Lawrence and what he brings to Marinelli's line. They didn't have him ranked the 20th best player in this deep draft for nothing.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

Yes, there is a huge difference between questions and hopeless.

We have a lot of questions. I don't think we have a lot of hopeless.

In general we are a young defense...and roster. There are 74 guys on the roster that are 27 or younger. Of the 16 guys that are 28 or over, only half are sure thing starters and that includes LaDouche.

Overall, I see the arrow pointing up more than I see it going down.

 

[big dog cowboy]

You should start getting excited about Lawrence and what he brings to Marinelli's line. They didn't have him ranked the 20th best player in this deep draft for nothing.

And the 3rd ranked and last available impact DE.

Great post **.

 

[jday]

There are quite a few people who are unconvinced that Lawrence will be good, and I think that is because he didn't run a blazing time in his 40 like Barr or Clowney did (although he did run much better at his pro day). However, there is so much that goes into making a good pass rusher and only a small portion of that has to do with a players 40 time.

There are examples of DE's who ran a bad to horrible 40 time and were actually very good pass rushers. Terrell Suggs is one that immediately comes to mind. Michael Strahan and Greg Ellis are a couple of others off the top of my head. Quickness, anticipation, smarts, strength, an understanding of leverage... these are all things that are just as important for a DE as pure straight line speed is.

xwalker mentioned Lawrence's technique, arm length, and his strong hands, and he is exactly right. Those things will help him in the fighting that goes on along the line of scrimmage. Attitude is huge for a DE, and it is something that I've always griped about with Ware. Lawrence plays with an edge and has a nasty streak. That too will help a lot.

Also, while he didn't run as fast as Clowney and Barr... he doesn't take a backseat in the athleticism dept. Lawrence is extremely athletic, with terrific body control, balance and really quick hands and feet. Again, those things mean more than a fast 40 time. He also plays with good leverage, which really, is something you either do naturally or you don't. Coaches can try to teach that, and they can to an extent, but really, either it comes natural or it doesn't.

I have always looked at playing DE and getting after the QB as something that is somewhat of a knack. Some people are good at it and most aren't. Lawrence walked in and made an impact at DE right away at Boise State. His natural ability to rush the QB was on display from the very start of his career there. What Marinelli saw in Lawrence I think, is a guy who is a natural pass rusher. Someone who just knows how to get to the QB, and has plenty of athletic ability to do it at the NFL level. He saw a guy who uses his long arms, big strong hands, terrific athleticism, and a relentless nature to make plays in the backfield, and he was pretty desperate to get a guy like that on his DL.

Here is what NFL.com says about Lawrence:

"Highly athletic. Fluid, flexible and rangy. Terrific balance and body control. Has quick, coordinated hands and feet to slingshot off blocks. Has natural pass-rush ability -- shows burst, bend and closing speed to hunt down quarterbacks. Dips inside suddenly. Terrific knee and ankle flexion -- flattens efficiently and redirects and accelerates smoothly. Explosive tackler. Made an instant impact at BSU and was productive behind the line of scrimmage -- 34 TFL and 20 sacks from 2012-13. Carries a swagger and plays with attitude."


What you notice about that is a lot of what xwalker and myself have been saying about him: Highly athletic, fluid, flexible and rangy. He is a terrific athlete despite not having a rare 40 time. They talk about his coordinated hands and feet, and that is vital to a great pass rusher. They talk about his knee and ankle bend and how smoothly he plays.

As for his negatives, there aren't a whole lot and those that are there either won't matter that much in Marinelli's defense (a tad undersized for DE), don't matter because he isn't an OLB (isn't used to playing coverage), or isn't a negative to me (plays with an attitude).

This is too long, so I will just say that I think a whole lot of fans are underestimating Lawrence's athletic ability, his natural pass rush ability, his lateral agility and the strength in his hands.

Also, not many are talking about the edge he plays with and what it can do not only for his game... but for the entire DL. That should not be overlooked. It is something we've been needing in Dallas for a long time, and Lawrence has it in spades.

You should start getting excited about Lawrence and what he brings to Marinelli's line. They didn't have him ranked the 20th best player in this deep draft for nothing.

Great response. You certainly have me looking forward to finding out how he answers his questions.

 

[jday]

Yes, there is a huge difference between questions and hopeless.

We have a lot of questions. I don't think we have a lot of hopeless.

In general we are a young defense...and roster. There are 74 guys on the roster that are 27 or younger. Of the 16 guys that are 28 or over, only half are sure thing starters and that includes LaDouche.

Overall, I see the arrow pointing up more than I see it going down.

This is another great point. Since the release of Ware and Hatcher, I have been excited for the future...not necessarily the immediate future, mind you, but I see a team getting younger and in the scheme of things, that's what all great teams do. They move on from the aged over-priced veterans because at some point you start paying for things they have done and not things they are going to do. It's a good sign for the Cowboys.

 

[jday]

Good post and overview of the "talent" on D and the many questions surrounding the squad this season in terms of improving from last year's horror show. Good points about Hatcher's production needing replacement via sack totals. Hatcher will never sniff 11 sacks again and didn't result in the team having a consistent "push" in the middle or even an average pass rush taking the other player production into account. He just wasn't enough of a difference maker considering his age and investment previously put forth towards the DL with Ware, Spencer, Rat, etc.

This team needs a LB (preferably Carter) to step up and become a playmaker in this D. The 4-3 WLB should be making many tackles and "protected" from the DL. Carter is admittedly bad at disengaging from blockers, but why are they allowed their hands on him with such regularity? I believe Rod went over where Carter will line up as to protect him from the OL and hope this accommodates this aspect. XWalker pointed to McClain's potential impact as the new 1 tech in taking over for Hayden and I hope his impact is as strong as stated. However, I am a little skeptical seeing as how he signed for so cheap and so fast; right out of the gate in FA. He doesn't play a glamour position but would think some other teams would sniff around that kind of talent. All that said, it was for peanuts and this team deserves a FA steal after the gaffes or unfortunate results (still looking @ Rivera and his bum back) No...you let it go.

Wilcox could really be the saving grace for this D if he can play centerfield or at least play formidable coverage when transferring coverage assignments (Cover 2/3). XWalker also updated me on his coverage skills in the Senior Bowl last year; covering WR's better than some of the corners and excelling, etc. Church still needs to be replaced (just. too. slow) DLaw seems to be the only pure "pass rusher" we have and he is a rook. I was ready for this when Ware was released and we didn't resign Hatch. Sometimes it will take a season of finding out what you got.

Church is admittedly limited in terms of speed. But it will take this season to truly find out if he merits replacing. I say that because the Cowboys had so many holes coming into this season, they couldn't afford to replace Church when the holes surrounding him were so much more pronounced. If this offseason proves to be filled with genius moves, then maybe the Cowboys can afford to look at that. But for now, in terms of understanding the game and knowing where to be, he is the best option they have on defense, in my opinion.

 

[xwalker]

Church is admittedly limited in terms of speed. But it will take this season to truly find out if he merits replacing. I say that because the Cowboys had so many holes coming into this season, they couldn't afford to replace Church when the holes surrounding him were so much more pronounced. If this offseason proves to be filled with genius moves, then maybe the Cowboys can afford to look at that. But for now, in terms of understanding the game and knowing where to be, he is the best option they have on defense, in my opinion.

Church lost weight from 222 to about 212 which significantly improved his speed. He is listeed at 218 but he said he is 212. Also, he spent a lot of time training at the Michael Johnson Performance Center. There objective there is to improve speed.