Difference between "questions" and "hopeless"

[jday]

Church lost weight from 222 to about 212 which significantly improved his speed. He is listeed at 218 but he said he is 212. Also, he spent a lot of time training at the Michael Johnson Performance Center. There objective there is to improve speed.

I am familiar with the Michael Johson Performance Center. I'm looking forward to seeing if there is a notable difference.

 

[AsthmaField]

There objective there is to improve speed.

And, IMO speed is the only real hole in Church's game. The guy really has terrific instincts and athleticism. He is a good player.

Some fans simply have a hard time getting around him not getting drafted and his slow 40 time. Those two things override his very good play in most people's mind.

 

[rwill784]

To the op the only glaring hope I have is the teams stubbornness to get anther safety the last year when church got hurt and they kept harping on how good he was, I kept saying whatever then dude played and I've been a fan since.

I'm just gonna leave the questions for August to answer my friend

 

[AsthmaField]

Great response. You certainly have me looking forward to finding out how he answers his questions.

Here's hoping what I see with him is correct. I really think it is.

I'm just glad that the team is shying away from the Kavika Pittman types (great measurables but doesn't play football all that well), and going for the football players like Lawrence. I will take that any day.

Terrell Suggs taught me a lesson years ago. Despite getting to the QB a lot in college, I didn't think he was going to be all that good because he didn't run very fast. Needless to say, I was way wrong on that. Since then I have paid a lot more attention to the players ability to use leverage, change of direction, his hands and arm length, and his intelligence and ability to anticipate the snap. Those things help players get to the QB more than simply being able to run really fast (hello Mike Mamula).

Lawrence just knows how to get to the QB, plain and simple. That won't change in the NFL.

Plus, I'm extremely excited how Marinelli plans on using him. He will rotate in on passing downs and he'll be fresh to pin his ears back and go. Then, Selvie or Mincey will come in to relieve him and they will be fresh.

Really, I'm excited about how Marinelli is going to use the entire DL. He is going to send guys at the offense in waves. No more with Ware and Spencer playing 92% of the downs and being worn out by the 4th quarter.

One thing I love about Marinelli's scheme on the DL is that it isn't a complicated system to play at all. It is simple and guys can just come in, pin their ears back and go. Not a big learning curve and rookies can easily come in and contribute right away without a lot of thinking slowing them down.

An example of what Marinelli will be doing is:

Send Selvie on the weakside and Crawford at strongside end, with McClain at the 3 and Bishop at the 1.

Then, put Lawrence at WDE and Mincey at SDE with Melton at the 3 and Coleman at the 1.

Then, on sure passing downs he could let Lawrence stay on the weakside and put Selvie on the strongside with Melton at the 3 and Crawford at the 1.

That is just some of the combinations he can run on the DL.

Crawford and Bass can both play SDE or at the 1 or the 3.

Melton will be the 3 most of the time, but he can play at end or the 1 also.

McClain should be a huge upgrade at the 1 over Hayden, but I think he is going to be really good at the 3 too... particular on run downs.

Mincey can play either end, but I see him providing a pass rush from the strongside as his best spot.

Lawrence is strictly your big-time edge rusher on the weakside, but it is a vital player to have.

Selvie played damn well at the SDE last year and he will be there some this season, but he is a better WDE than SDE. He should play WDE on run downs and he will get a good rush on the QB when he is there and they pass. He certainly isn't just a run stopper. Selvie is a very versatile player. He was a fantastic find off the street.

Ben Gardner is a player that I really like. He is all blood and guts and will never back down. Like many others in this unit, he is pretty versatile. He is perfect for SDE but also has the ability to play inside in certain situations. He is just a rookie, but I think he could push Ben Bass off of the team. Gardner really is a good player who likely would have been taken much earlier if he wouldn't have had the injury his senior season. His pro day numbers are better than almost all of the DL numbers from the combine. Much more talented physically than people think.

Martez Wilson is physically the most talented of all the WDE prospects, but he hasn't put it all together yet. If it clicks for him, then Lawrence and he will be a terror off the edge on the weakside. I'm not counting on him, but if Marinelli keeps it simple enough for him and just tells him to get the QB, he just might work out.

Bishop I see as an ideal 1 tech in this defense. He really has some explosion and at 6' tall, he plays with great leverage. He also is great with his hands for such a young guy. I think he will contribute right away and be damn good at it.

Coleman I like a lot too and he should be extremely versatile in this defense. He can play just about any spot but WDE. He could rotate in at the 3, the 1, or SDE in goal line situations. Really, he could go in at SDE anytime you want to shut down the run.

Hayden isn't who you want starting, but he is perfectly capable of being a run stopping 1 tech off the bench. He would do well in that capacity. The problem for him is that I think Coleman and Bishop will play well enough to make him expendable.

Rayford is forgotten a lot but the team really liked his length and his ability to play inside or outside. He probably doesn't make the team, but he is physically talented and if the light goes on for him in this easy to play scheme, he just might make it.

As usual, my post is too long, but you can see why I get excited thinking about all the combinations that Marinelli will have on the DL. He has his critical WDE in Lawrence and his critical 3-tech in Melton and his strong but still quick 1-tech in McClain and his strong but athletic SDE in Crawford. Then, he has a ton of guys to work in any way he sees fit in a rotation.

I see it as light years better than what we were running out there last year. I think the rotation will be infinitely better, the players way more talented, and everyone way more rested.

I know a lot of people don't think we will be better along the line, but I think it will be a team strength by the second half of the season, with strong contributions from several rookies (Lawrence, Bishop, Gardner, Coleman) and from the two critical free agent pickups (McClain and Mincey).

 

[Risen Star]

Do not underestimate Rod Marinelli.

The Rod Marinelli effect.

Rod Marinelli.

 

[AsthmaField]

Do not underestimate Rod Marinelli.

The Rod Marinelli effect.

Rod Marinelli.

That's old material man.

 

[CF74]

And then there's Hayden, rumor has it he got a personal trainer in Siberia somewhere and now he's a secret beast about to be unleashed...

--Stay tuned

 

[Risen Star]

That's old material man.

I agree.

But they just keep doing it.

 

[BIGDen]

In terms of worried, Lawrence tops my list. I honestly feel based on the footage I was able to see and the scouting reports I have read, that Lawrence was reach-by-necessity. The top tier guys were off the board and the Cowboys really needed to inject youth into the line. But here's hoping you and the Cowboys see something I don't or can't.

I don't see Lawrence as a reach at all. I don't believe many "experts" were calling him that either. Broaddus, who is certainly not perfect but was an NFL scout, had Lawrence around 24th overall IIRC on his big board. The Cowboys likely had him ranked in the 20s as well. He was considered a 2nd round talent by many draft sites/experts. We just paid a high price to move up for him. That's not reaching for need. So did we overpay for need? Probably. If he turns out to be a bust then we obviously made a huge mistake. If he turns out to be a good player who improves our pass rush, then it was probably worth it. I've posted it before, but I think he has the arm length, strength, technique, first step, relentlessness, and nose for the ball (chasing QBs/RBs) to be a very good player in the NFL. I was really impressed with his ability to track down a QB. They couldn't seem to get away from him. 20 sacks, 34 TFL, and 7 FF in 23 games is really impressive. He's a playmaker. He plays with good leverage. The fact that he isn't 6'4" or 6'5" doesn't really matter since his arms are as long or longer than guys that height and his powerful hands are huge. He won't be Demarcus Ware because that's a once in a generation type of player. However, I do believe he has Suggs/Haley type potential. If we get that type of player then that 3rd rounder will have been be more than worth it.

 

[AsthmaField]

I agree.

But they just keep doing it.

Don't you mean "y'all keep doing it"?

Because I said above that I'm excited about how Marinelli is going to use a rotation on the DL. I also said that his system isn't complicated so rookies can come in and play fast (although I would be saying the same thing if Mike Zimmer was the defensive coordinator).

Or is that not what you're talking about?

 

[AsthmaField]

However, I do believe he has Suggs/Haley type potential. If we get that type of player then that 3rd rounder will have been be more than worth it.

If he is as good as Charles Haley... you guys are going to have to call a medic for me.

 

[BIGDen]

If he is as good as Charles Haley... you guys are going to have to call a medic for me.

Of course the odds are against any player being a Hall of Fame caliber (despite Haley not getting in yet) player but I think Lawrence has the potential to be a pretty special player in this league for years. The Suggs/Haley comparison is what I see as his potential or ceiling. Haley and Suggs both averaged around 9 sacks/year. He is similar in size to Suggs and Haley (except Haley was a couple of inches taller). Neither Suggs nor Haley were/are freakishly athletic but both were/are strong, crafty, and relentless. I just see some of those qualities when I watch Lawrence's college performances. As Cowboys fans, I'm sure we all hope we just drafted the next Haley/Suggs.

 

[AsthmaField]

Of course the odds are against any player being a Hall of Fame caliber (despite Haley not getting in yet) player but I think Lawrence has the potential to be a pretty special player in this league for years. The Suggs/Haley comparison is what I see as his potential or ceiling. Haley and Suggs both averaged around 9 sacks/year. He is similar in size to Suggs and Haley (except Haley was a couple of inches taller). Neither Suggs nor Haley were/are freakishly athletic but both were/are strong, crafty, and relentless. I just see some of those qualities when I watch Lawrence's college performances. As Cowboys fans, I'm sure we all hope we just drafted the next Haley/Suggs.

Yeah, I actually have thought before that Lawrence kind of reminds me of Haley. It just that Haley was so good that I hate to make that comparison about a rookie.

He does have a bit of a nasty streak, much like Haley did... however, let's hope he isn't insane like Haley was/is.

Personally, I am going to love watching a guy on the DL who finally plays mean.

 

[xwalker]

And, IMO speed is the only real hole in Church's game. The guy really has terrific instincts and athleticism. He is a good player.

Some fans simply have a hard time getting around him not getting drafted and his slow 40 time. Those two things override his very good play in most people's mind.

I screw up using there instead of their.

Church had a much better than average 3-cone, IIRC.

 

[xwalker]

I am familiar with the Michael Johson Performance Center. I'm looking forward to seeing if there is a notable difference.

He's been doing it for for awhile. I noticed the difference in the training camp before he injured his Achilles. He came to that TC at the lighter weight and was noticeably faster.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

Yeah, count me as one that doesn't see Church as being a turtle. In fact, there was a video of a race between him and a guy that was considered quite a bit faster than he and Church was right with that guy.....this was a year or two ago. There also was a video of him on the treadmill and I want to say his top speed was pretty damned fast.

 

[snapper]

Feeling hopeless about something means you have a feeling of no hope. That nothing can be done. Hope is all a person has in life. I'm never hopeless going in to a Cowboys season. Just disappointed at the end.

Agree with your statement in bold. As for disappointment, see my signature below.

 

[jday]

I don't see Lawrence as a reach at all. I don't believe many "experts" were calling him that either. Broaddus, who is certainly not perfect but was an NFL scout, had Lawrence around 24th overall IIRC on his big board. The Cowboys likely had him ranked in the 20s as well. He was considered a 2nd round talent by many draft sites/experts. We just paid a high price to move up for him. That's not reaching for need. So did we overpay for need? Probably. If he turns out to be a bust then we obviously made a huge mistake. If he turns out to be a good player who improves our pass rush, then it was probably worth it. I've posted it before, but I think he has the arm length, strength, technique, first step, relentlessness, and nose for the ball (chasing QBs/RBs) to be a very good player in the NFL. I was really impressed with his ability to track down a QB. They couldn't seem to get away from him. 20 sacks, 34 TFL, and 7 FF in 23 games is really impressive. He's a playmaker. He plays with good leverage. The fact that he isn't 6'4" or 6'5" doesn't really matter since his arms are as long or longer than guys that height and his powerful hands are huge. He won't be Demarcus Ware because that's a once in a generation type of player. However, I do believe he has Suggs/Haley type potential. If we get that type of player then that 3rd rounder will have been be more than worth it.

I would definitely be okay with a Suggs/Haley type player. To be honest, if we gave a 1st and 2nd for him, like we did for Claiborne and got that type of player, I would still be okay. As I have said in response to the many Lawrence-defense response, I am really looking forward to finding out.

 

[jday]

Here's hoping what I see with him is correct. I really think it is.

I'm just glad that the team is shying away from the Kavika Pittman types (great measurables but doesn't play football all that well), and going for the football players like Lawrence. I will take that any day.

Terrell Suggs taught me a lesson years ago. Despite getting to the QB a lot in college, I didn't think he was going to be all that good because he didn't run very fast. Needless to say, I was way wrong on that. Since then I have paid a lot more attention to the players ability to use leverage, change of direction, his hands and arm length, and his intelligence and ability to anticipate the snap. Those things help players get to the QB more than simply being able to run really fast (hello Mike Mamula).

Lawrence just knows how to get to the QB, plain and simple. That won't change in the NFL.

Plus, I'm extremely excited how Marinelli plans on using him. He will rotate in on passing downs and he'll be fresh to pin his ears back and go. Then, Selvie or Mincey will come in to relieve him and they will be fresh.

Really, I'm excited about how Marinelli is going to use the entire DL. He is going to send guys at the offense in waves. No more with Ware and Spencer playing 92% of the downs and being worn out by the 4th quarter.

One thing I love about Marinelli's scheme on the DL is that it isn't a complicated system to play at all. It is simple and guys can just come in, pin their ears back and go. Not a big learning curve and rookies can easily come in and contribute right away without a lot of thinking slowing them down.

An example of what Marinelli will be doing is:

Send Selvie on the weakside and Crawford at strongside end, with McClain at the 3 and Bishop at the 1.

Then, put Lawrence at WDE and Mincey at SDE with Melton at the 3 and Coleman at the 1.

Then, on sure passing downs he could let Lawrence stay on the weakside and put Selvie on the strongside with Melton at the 3 and Crawford at the 1.

That is just some of the combinations he can run on the DL.

Crawford and Bass can both play SDE or at the 1 or the 3.

Melton will be the 3 most of the time, but he can play at end or the 1 also.

McClain should be a huge upgrade at the 1 over Hayden, but I think he is going to be really good at the 3 too... particular on run downs.

Mincey can play either end, but I see him providing a pass rush from the strongside as his best spot.

Lawrence is strictly your big-time edge rusher on the weakside, but it is a vital player to have.

Selvie played damn well at the SDE last year and he will be there some this season, but he is a better WDE than SDE. He should play WDE on run downs and he will get a good rush on the QB when he is there and they pass. He certainly isn't just a run stopper. Selvie is a very versatile player. He was a fantastic find off the street.

Ben Gardner is a player that I really like. He is all blood and guts and will never back down. Like many others in this unit, he is pretty versatile. He is perfect for SDE but also has the ability to play inside in certain situations. He is just a rookie, but I think he could push Ben Bass off of the team. Gardner really is a good player who likely would have been taken much earlier if he wouldn't have had the injury his senior season. His pro day numbers are better than almost all of the DL numbers from the combine. Much more talented physically than people think.

Martez Wilson is physically the most talented of all the WDE prospects, but he hasn't put it all together yet. If it clicks for him, then Lawrence and he will be a terror off the edge on the weakside. I'm not counting on him, but if Marinelli keeps it simple enough for him and just tells him to get the QB, he just might work out.

Bishop I see as an ideal 1 tech in this defense. He really has some explosion and at 6' tall, he plays with great leverage. He also is great with his hands for such a young guy. I think he will contribute right away and be damn good at it.

Coleman I like a lot too and he should be extremely versatile in this defense. He can play just about any spot but WDE. He could rotate in at the 3, the 1, or SDE in goal line situations. Really, he could go in at SDE anytime you want to shut down the run.

Hayden isn't who you want starting, but he is perfectly capable of being a run stopping 1 tech off the bench. He would do well in that capacity. The problem for him is that I think Coleman and Bishop will play well enough to make him expendable.

Rayford is forgotten a lot but the team really liked his length and his ability to play inside or outside. He probably doesn't make the team, but he is physically talented and if the light goes on for him in this easy to play scheme, he just might make it.

As usual, my post is too long, but you can see why I get excited thinking about all the combinations that Marinelli will have on the DL. He has his critical WDE in Lawrence and his critical 3-tech in Melton and his strong but still quick 1-tech in McClain and his strong but athletic SDE in Crawford. Then, he has a ton of guys to work in any way he sees fit in a rotation.

I see it as light years better than what we were running out there last year. I think the rotation will be infinitely better, the players way more talented, and everyone way more rested.

I know a lot of people don't think we will be better along the line, but I think it will be a team strength by the second half of the season, with strong contributions from several rookies (Lawrence, Bishop, Gardner, Coleman) and from the two critical free agent pickups (McClain and Mincey).

Okay, so break it down for me. You clearly have done more research on these guys then I have. How many do they keep and who? My gut tell's me considering they want to send players in waves and also want to avoid the fiasco of having to scrape the bottom of the barrell should the injury bug hit there that they will keep 10. I would also say that they will go light at DT in favor of DE because of the flexibility of many of the DE's to move inside, however they have to keep at least 2 pure 1-tech's, so I'm thinking a ratio of 6 DE and 4 DT. I consider Henry Melton a more natural fit for the 3-tech, but I understand he can play either w/effectiveness. So do you agree w/my #'s breakdown? If so, who are the 10? If not, how do you break it down and who sticks?

 

[jday]

Do not underestimate Rod Marinelli.

The Rod Marinelli effect.

Rod Marinelli.

I know, I know. The Marinelli Magic becomes a tired argument from the hope springs eternal crowd. But without seeing it on the field, there really isn't much to point to that can't be countered with the plethora of questions I outlined in the OP. So if you want to hope, that's one of the few things you can look at and I for one really want to hope there is something to that. I don't have blinders on, though - I see the obstacles for this D clearly.

Last year, the defense set records in sucking; but that was his first year and Marinelli 1. didn't have his own ingredients to work with and 2. didn't have overall control. This year he has been able to add a bunch of guy's that I think he is comfortable with, so here's hoping we see a reversal of fortune. I'd be delusional to believe that this defense will be dominant, since I get many guy's will answer my OP questions in the negative. But I do think with some luck and health throughout the season they could at least avoid the bottom 1/3. Is that too optimistic for you?