different kind of poll

[gbrittain]

Can some of the big time BP supporters tell me what BP has accomplished the first two years he was here?

This is a serious question and I would like someone to answer it.

I give you Jason Witten, after that it gets sketchy in my opinion. Think Free Agency and draft.

My biggest gripes about BP is his unwillingness to address the QB of the future situation and what exactly did he do his first two years? You would think that a team as inept as Dallas was before he got here, he would have come in guns blazing like we needed.

 

[wileedog]

Can some of the big time BP supporters tell me what BP has accomplished the first two years he was here?

So we should fire him because he had a bad offseason in 2004, even though he had a superior one in 2005. Is that your point here?

My biggest gripes about BP is his unwillingness to address the QB of the future situation and what exactly did he do his first two years? You would think that a team as inept as Dallas was before he got here, he would have come in guns blazing like we needed.

This has been addressed over and over and over.

Bill agreed when he signed on to let Jerry's Kids Q and Hutch stay on for 'evaluation'. That number 5 pick that we used on Terrence was the only one we could have had a shot at a 'real' QB, and we passed on Leftwich for Carter.

The past couple of seasons we have far too many holes to address to trade a bunch of picks to move up and gamble on a QB - heck in 2004 we traded down.

However we did address it two seasons ago, trading a 3rd for Henson, but everyone likes to conveniently forget that.

In the meantime Romo has been steadily developing as well - apparently enough that the Jets even came calling about him for a first day pick (alledgedly).

The one single biggest gripe everyone seems to have is the QB. Yet the only one worth spit we could have drafted in the last 3 years was Leftwich, and he hasn't proved himself to be all that much better than Bledsoe (although much more brittle).

 

[gbrittain]

So we should fire him because he had a bad offseason in 2004, even though he had a superior one in 2005. Is that your point here?


This has been addressed over and over and over.

Bill agreed when he signed on to let Jerry's Kids Q and Hutch stay on for 'evaluation'. That number 5 pick that we used on Terrence was the only one we could have had a shot at a 'real' QB, and we passed on Leftwich for Carter.

The past couple of seasons we have far too many holes to address to trade a bunch of picks to move up and gamble on a QB - heck in 2004 we traded down.

However we did address it two seasons ago, trading a 3rd for Henson, but everyone likes to conveniently forget that.

In the meantime Romo has been steadily developing as well - apparently enough that the Jets even came calling about him for a first day pick (alledgedly).

The one single biggest gripe everyone seems to have is the QB. Yet the only one worth spit we could have drafted in the last 3 years was Leftwich, and he hasn't proved himself to be all that much better than Bledsoe (although much more brittle).

If you can find one post in my entire history where I ever called for BPs head on a platter please do so.

I don't want him gone simply because we are too far into his regime at this point to turn back.

However, just because his first name is Bill and last name Parcells I am not going to sit here and pretend he has done a good job, because he has not.

I find it hard to believe that in 2003 that if I had told you we would be where we would be today that you would be happy.

We will have to agree to disagree on the QB thing. It has been said that Henson was JJs idea and not Parcells. Don't know if it is a fact or not. You mentioned the Romo thing and you admit that it is alleged. Somehow I doubt it, what has he ever done to merit a 3rd round pick?

Anyway forget the QB thing. What did Big B do his first two years? What was the vision?

 

[wileedog]

If you can find one post in my entire history where I ever called for BPs head on a platter please do so.

I don't want him gone simply because we are too far into his regime at this point to turn back.

However, just because his first name is Bill and last name Parcells I am not going to sit here and pretend he has done a good job, because he has not.

I find it hard to believe that in 2003 that if I had told you we would be where we would be today that you would be happy.

I think we are year behind where we should be because Bill got fooled by the 2003 defense and in 2004 basically stated he was too concerned with coming in here and just throwing around Jerry's money on FAs. Yep, a mistake.

I have stated this as a criticism of Parcells before and will do so again. The only mitigation to that criticism is that Parcells would have gotten his arse kicked in by the media and the fans if he tore up a #1 ranked defense to switch it to a 3-4, even though it was the right thing to do.

So basically after this offseason we are where I thought we should be last year, maybe a little better because drafts like 2005 don't happen every year.

Bottom line is if Parcell's offensive line moves through draft and FA the past 3 years - another area I am openly critical of him on - actually pan out, then we aren't even having this conversation, because despite the 2004 setback we would be in the playoffs right now.

They didn't, we aren't.

We will have to agree to disagree on the QB thing. It has been said that Henson was JJs idea and not Parcells. Don't know if it is a fact or not. You mentioned the Romo thing and you admit that it is alleged. Somehow I doubt it, what has he ever done to merit a 3rd round pick?

I haven't given up on Henson yet.

So answer me a question. Assuming that Jerry locked Bill into Carter/Hutch as the starter for 2003, what do you think Bill should have done with the QB issue?

Get a little more specific then "get a young guy". Name names.

Anyway forget the QB thing. What did Big B do his first two years? What was the vision?

Again, I think Bill got fooled a little, thinking he could tweak a few parts, coach a few guys up and make a run with what he had. Woodson retiring made the whole house of cards fall apart.

Bill said last year in the offseason he realized he made mistakes and would rectifiy them. The result was one of the best offseasons in a while around here.

We moved this year to make strong improvement along the front 7 and another good long term addition in Henry in the secondary.

Next year I think we'll complete the defense with a FS and another LB or two, then turn some attention to the offense, which already has a potential feature back in place from 2004 and a stud TE. If the defensive pieces come together we can contend with just some improvements on the offensive line. Either way in 2007 we probably have a complete defense, and just need some skill guys and QB to add to a solid all around team for Bill or whoever takes over for him. I am much more comfortable throwing a rookie out there with the team we are likely to have in 2007 than the one we had in 2003 or 2004, or even this year.

That's what I see in the future. I'm not going to crucify a guy for one bad (off)season as long as I see the right things in motion going forward.

 

[gbrittain]

I think we are year behind where we should be because Bill got fooled by the 2003 defense and in 2004 basically stated he was too concerned with coming in here and just throwing around Jerry's money on FAs. Yep, a mistake.

I have stated this as a criticism of Parcells before and will do so again. The only mitigation to that criticism is that Parcells would have gotten his arse kicked in by the media and the fans if he tore up a #1 ranked defense to switch it to a 3-4, even though it was the right thing to do.

So basically after this offseason we are where I thought we should be last year, maybe a little better because drafts like 2005 don't happen every year.

Bottom line is if Parcell's offensive line moves through draft and FA the past 3 years - another area I am openly critical of him on - actually pan out, then we aren't even having this conversation, because despite the 2004 setback we would be in the playoffs right now.

They didn't, we aren't.


I haven't given up on Henson yet.

So answer me a question. Assuming that Jerry locked Bill into Carter/Hutch as the starter for 2003, what do you think Bill should have done with the QB issue?

Get a little more specific then "get a young guy". Name names.



Again, I think Bill got fooled a little, thinking he could tweak a few parts, coach a few guys up and make a run with what he had. Woodson retiring made the whole house of cards fall apart.

Bill said last year in the offseason he realized he made mistakes and would rectifiy them. The result was one of the best offseasons in a while around here.

We moved this year to make strong improvement along the front 7 and another good long term addition in Henry in the secondary.

Next year I think we'll complete the defense with a FS and another LB or two, then turn some attention to the offense, which already has a potential feature back in place from 2004 and a stud TE. If the defensive pieces come together we can contend with just some improvements on the offensive line. Either way in 2007 we probably have a complete defense, and just need some skill guys and QB to add to a solid all around team for Bill or whoever takes over for him. I am much more comfortable throwing a rookie out there with the team we are likely to have in 2007 than the one we had in 2003 or 2004, or even this year.

That's what I see in the future. I'm not going to crucify a guy for one bad (off)season as long as I see the right things in motion going forward.

I think we are year behind where we should be because Bill got fooled by the 2003 defense and in 2004 basically stated he was too concerned with coming in here and just throwing around Jerry's money on FAs. Yep, a mistake.

You say mistake, I say mistake. We agree. I just don't think he should have been fooled by anything in 2003. He inherited a 3 time consecutive 5-11 team. That was the time to tear this team apart. No fans or media would have ripped him for anything. They would have said "Look out Big Bill is doing his thing in Dallas".

I have stated this as a criticism of Parcells before and will do so again. The only mitigation to that criticism is that Parcells would have gotten his arse kicked in by the media and the fans if he tore up a #1 ranked defense to switch it to a 3-4, even though it was the right thing to do.

He should have torn it up before the 2003 season, when Dallas defense was ranked #16 the year before, but really it was not even an average defense. This goes back to my point above. It was a bad team that should have been dealt with.

So basically after this offseason we are where I thought we should be last year, maybe a little better because drafts like 2005 don't happen every year.

I think we should be much further ahead than this. Again, I give him credit for descent FA signings this year and a draft with a purpose, but what about the first two years? Witten I love...jackpot there. The rest as I say is sketchy at best.

Bottom line is if Parcell's offensive line moves through draft and FA the past 3 years - another area I am openly critical of him on - actually pan out, then we aren't even having this conversation, because despite the 2004 setback we would be in the playoffs right now.

They certainly did not pan out. That is supposed to be what separates us fans from the GM coach types like Big Bill. Sure, you can not bat 1000, misses are to be expected. This goes a little beyond a swing and a miss. I have not seen an offensive line like this in quite some time.

I haven't given up on Henson yet.

Neither have I. However, give me one good indication that Big Bill has any plans for this guy other than not to play him. I am talking regular season or preseason. It would appear from the outside looking in that Henson is not one of Big Bills guys. When you have two guys at the back up slot who have never thrown the ball in an NFL game (save Chicago and B-More) that you would make an effort to get these guys some playing time. No one will ever convince me that it is a good thing for any QB in any situation to sit on the bench 3+ years without ever getting into a real NFL game.

Get a little more specific then "get a young guy". Name names.

I have mentioned Leftwich, Simms, Schaub, and Frye among others. I will never say that one of those guys are the answer. Much to prove, I admit freely. Which one of those guys does not appear as of right now to be a better project than Romo or Henson. Henson is arguable, Romo is not.

Again, I think Bill got fooled a little, thinking he could tweak a few parts, coach a few guys up and make a run with what he had. Woodson retiring made the whole house of cards fall apart.

Shame on BP for being fooled. This team was not a good one in 2002, he should not have been fooled. It was time for someone with a vision to come in here and overhaul this team. You can say Hindsight or whatever you want, but I promise you that I had no illusions about the 2003 team that BP inherited. It was not a good team in need of a couple of band aids.

Bill said last year in the offseason he realized he made mistakes and would rectifiy them. The result was one of the best offseasons in a while around here.

Again, I am glad he finally realized it. Last season was a good not great offseason. I would say great if the offensive line not had been swiss cheese. I also understand you can not fix everything in one year, but it would have been nice had he tried the first two years like he did his third.

Next year I think we'll complete the defense with a FS and another LB or two, then turn some attention to the offense, which already has a potential feature back in place from 2004 and a stud TE. If the defensive pieces come together we can contend with just some improvements on the offensive line. Either way in 2007 we probably have a complete defense, and just need some skill guys and QB to add to a solid all around team for Bill or whoever takes over for him. I am much more comfortable throwing a rookie out there with the team we are likely to have in 2007 than the one we had in 2003 or 2004, or even this year.

Here is the way I say things shaking out. The defense is by no means near elite status yet. Much, much better yes, but not elite. Can he turn into an elite defense through FA and draft this offseason, quite possibly yes. Can he do that and start rebuilding the offense? Maybe, I dont know. I hope so because on offense Bledsoe will be 34, Larry Allen 35(?), Marco Rivera 34, Flozell Adams 31, Terry Glenn 32 and Keyshawn Johnson 34.

I have a sneeky suspicion that the year after next when this team should have an elite defense we are going to have a broke offense still.

I dont like rebuilding with old players. If a player like Charles Haley is going to put you over the top by all means bring him in. Bledsoe, Johnson, Glenn and Rivera dont excite me about our future a bit.

From the best I can tell we are in this predicament because Bill did not realize what needed to be done from day one.

The question of the day is what kind of O will Dallas have when the D is Superbowl caliber?

 

[wileedog]

You say mistake, I say mistake. We agree. I just don't think he should have been fooled by anything in 2003. He inherited a 3 time consecutive 5-11 team. That was the time to tear this team apart. No fans or media would have ripped him for anything. They would have said "Look out Big Bill is doing his thing in Dallas".

Please.

There are people here ripping him for firing the kicking coach, even though not another single team in the league even carries one.

They were ripping him LAST year for switching to a 3-4, even after the 2004 debacle.

He should have torn it up before the 2003 season, when Dallas defense was ranked #16 the year before, but really it was not even an average defense. This goes back to my point above. It was a bad team that should have been dealt with.

He didn't know who he had and who he didn't.

And how was he going to replace all those people? He had one draft before coming in, and to start throwing around big FA money before the 2003 season would have been ridiculous, and just strapped us further down the road.

I think we should be much further ahead than this. Again, I give him credit for descent FA signings this year and a draft with a purpose, but what about the first two years? Witten I love...jackpot there. The rest as I say is sketchy at best.

You can expect whatever you want. Nobody is right on every move they make.

T-New seems to look pretty good these days too. Crayton will be a good #2 WR this year or next. Reeves made great strides this season. Jury is still out on Peterman. Al Johnson had 1 solid year and then a sophmore slump. Can't really write him off yet based on his first year success.

They certainly did not pan out. That is supposed to be what separates us fans from the GM coach types like Big Bill. Sure, you can not bat 1000, misses are to be expected. This goes a little beyond a swing and a miss. I have not seen an offensive line like this in quite some time.

And he had stunning sucess with the D-line this year. Every player, even 7th round Raitliff and undrafted Pepper Johnson look like they can be solid players for a good long time.

Win some you lose some.

Lets hope he gets better at it this offseason.

Neither have I. However, give me one good indication that Big Bill has any plans for this guy other than not to play him. I am talking regular season or preseason. It would appear from the outside looking in that Henson is not one of Big Bills guys. When you have two guys at the back up slot who have never thrown the ball in an NFL game (save Chicago and B-More) that you would make an effort to get these guys some playing time. No one will ever convince me that it is a good thing for any QB in any situation to sit on the bench 3+ years without ever getting into a real NFL game.

No one will ever convince me that in getting in a few quarters of garbage time on a bad team with a bad o-line will ever make that much of a difference in developing a QB. You either give a QB the reins for a season or you don't. Anything else is relatively meaningless.

This issue is so overblown its ridiculous.

I have mentioned Leftwich, Simms, Schaub, and Frye among others. I will never say that one of those guys are the answer. Much to prove, I admit freely. Which one of those guys does not appear as of right now to be a better project than Romo or Henson. Henson is arguable, Romo is not.

Agreed, nothing special. We can get a comparable talent in the 3rd or 4th round of any draft, any time we want.

So what is the whining about?

Bledsoe is as good as any of them, so is decent, not great play from an old guy somehow worse than decent not great play from a young guy? Because I don't think any of those guys outside of MAYBE Leftwich has an upside any better than Drew CURRENTLY is. And we can easily get a guy just like them whenever Drew is done.

Shame on BP for being fooled. This team was not a good one in 2002, he should not have been fooled. It was time for someone with a vision to come in here and overhaul this team. You can say Hindsight or whatever you want, but I promise you that I had no illusions about the 2003 team that BP inherited. It was not a good team in need of a couple of band aids.

OK, shame on him.

Can we move on now?

Again, I am glad he finally realized it. Last season was a good not great offseason. I would say great if the offensive line not had been swiss cheese. I also understand you can not fix everything in one year, but it would have been nice had he tried the first two years like he did his third.

The first year was an evaluation year, you don't spend money in that year. It just doesn't make any sense to tie up FA's in big money contracts for a bad team.

The second year we've agreed he spit the bit.

The third year he did well outside of Rivera. He couldn't sign a big money RT because he has his own 2nd round pick in his 2nd year in camp (after supposedly a good offseason) Depth was a problem, but depth is always a problem for a team coming out of an 8 or 9 year tailspin.

Lets see what he does in year 4. If he sits on his laurels a la 2004 or doesn't address the O-line I'll join you on the dark side.

Here is the way I say things shaking out. The defense is by no means near elite status yet. Much, much better yes, but not elite. Can he turn into an elite defense through FA and draft this offseason, quite possibly yes. Can he do that and start rebuilding the offense? Maybe, I dont know. I hope so because on offense Bledsoe will be 34, Larry Allen 35(?), Marco Rivera 34, Flozell Adams 31, Terry Glenn 32 and Keyshawn Johnson 34.

I have a sneeky suspicion that the year after next when this team should have an elite defense we are going to have a broke offense still.

If we add a real FS and another LB or two this defense is in very good shape. All of the rookies will get better. Another playmaker on the field makes Ware (who is hopefully 10 pounds bigger) much more of a force. 2nd year in the system means we can start complicating the blitzes more just like SD did in their 2nd year running the 3-4.

They really could be that close.

Allen will be his average now self. We'll have to see with Rivera. I'll be shocked (and quite displeased) if we go into camp with only Pettiti to compete at the RT spot. 31 is not old for a LT (Flo). Crayton can start taking more of Keyshawn's snaps and someday will replace him nicely. Glenn may be 32 but is coming off one of his best seasons in years. JJ should be fully healed.

If the defense takes a step up these guys need to be competant, not an aerial show.

I dont like rebuilding with old players. If a player like Charles Haley is going to put you over the top by all means bring him in. Bledsoe, Johnson, Glenn and Rivera dont excite me about our future a bit.

Key and Glenn were trades. Bledsoe is a dirt cheap stopgap who is as mentioned as good as anything we had available. Rivera, meh, I was never a fan of that signing.

Point is signing younger guys costs LOTS of money for LOTS of years.

We paid up for Henry. I didn't see a lot of other younger players without questions marks (Burress) or who wanted to come here (Wahle wanted to go back to Carolina).

From the best I can tell we are in this predicament because Bill did not realize what needed to be done from day one.

Day 1 wasn't the problem IMO

Day 365 was.

He realized that in Day 730 and pushed us in the right direction.

Lets see where it goes from here.

The question of the day is what kind of O will Dallas have when the D is Superbowl caliber?

I guess we'll see.

But even if all he does is build us a young Superbowl caliber defense and leaves, I think it was well worth the time and money.

 

[gbrittain]

Please.

There are people here ripping him for firing the kicking coach, even though not another single team in the league even carries one.

They were ripping him LAST year for switching to a 3-4, even after the 2004 debacle.


He didn't know who he had and who he didn't.

And how was he going to replace all those people? He had one draft before coming in, and to start throwing around big FA money before the 2003 season would have been ridiculous, and just strapped us further down the road.


You can expect whatever you want. Nobody is right on every move they make.

T-New seems to look pretty good these days too. Crayton will be a good #2 WR this year or next. Reeves made great strides this season. Jury is still out on Peterman. Al Johnson had 1 solid year and then a sophmore slump. Can't really write him off yet based on his first year success.


And he had stunning sucess with the D-line this year. Every player, even 7th round Raitliff and undrafted Pepper Johnson look like they can be solid players for a good long time.

Win some you lose some.

Lets hope he gets better at it this offseason.


No one will ever convince me that in getting in a few quarters of garbage time on a bad team with a bad o-line will ever make that much of a difference in developing a QB. You either give a QB the reins for a season or you don't. Anything else is relatively meaningless.

This issue is so overblown its ridiculous.


Agreed, nothing special. We can get a comparable talent in the 3rd or 4th round of any draft, any time we want.

So what is the whining about?

Bledsoe is as good as any of them, so is decent, not great play from an old guy somehow worse than decent not great play from a young guy? Because I don't think any of those guys outside of MAYBE Leftwich has an upside any better than Drew CURRENTLY is. And we can easily get a guy just like them whenever Drew is done.


OK, shame on him.

Can we move on now?


The first year was an evaluation year, you don't spend money in that year. It just doesn't make any sense to tie up FA's in big money contracts for a bad team.

The second year we've agreed he spit the bit.

The third year he did well outside of Rivera. He couldn't sign a big money RT because he has his own 2nd round pick in his 2nd year in camp (after supposedly a good offseason) Depth was a problem, but depth is always a problem for a team coming out of an 8 or 9 year tailspin.

Lets see what he does in year 4. If he sits on his laurels a la 2004 or doesn't address the O-line I'll join you on the dark side.


If we add a real FS and another LB or two this defense is in very good shape. All of the rookies will get better. Another playmaker on the field makes Ware (who is hopefully 10 pounds bigger) much more of a force. 2nd year in the system means we can start complicating the blitzes more just like SD did in their 2nd year running the 3-4.

They really could be that close.

Allen will be his average now self. We'll have to see with Rivera. I'll be shocked (and quite displeased) if we go into camp with only Pettiti to compete at the RT spot. 31 is not old for a LT (Flo). Crayton can start taking more of Keyshawn's snaps and someday will replace him nicely. Glenn may be 32 but is coming off one of his best seasons in years. JJ should be fully healed.

If the defense takes a step up these guys need to be competant, not an aerial show.



Key and Glenn were trades. Bledsoe is a dirt cheap stopgap who is as mentioned as good as anything we had available. Rivera, meh, I was never a fan of that signing.

Point is signing younger guys costs LOTS of money for LOTS of years.

We paid up for Henry. I didn't see a lot of other younger players without questions marks (Burress) or who wanted to come here (Wahle wanted to go back to Carolina).


Day 1 wasn't the problem IMO

Day 365 was.

He realized that in Day 730 and pushed us in the right direction.

Lets see where it goes from here.



I guess we'll see.

But even if all he does is build us a young Superbowl caliber defense and leaves, I think it was well worth the time and money.

I guess the bottom line is we disagree philosophically. It is not a matter of I can't convince you you are wrong or you can not convince me. Bottom line if either one of us were an owner of an NFL team we would not hire each other to be GM.

I definitely will not be satisfied if BP leaves and all we have is a Superbowl caliber defense. With all the age on the offense, any thing short of a Superbowl victory to me is a failure.

I know that is harsh and normally that would not be the case for me. When you stack a bunch of old vets in key positions for a run at the Superbowl you had better succeed.

The Ravens of 2000 are a model of what can win a Superbowl, but that is not the best model by any stretch.

 

[wileedog]

I guess the bottom line is we disagree philosophically. It is not a matter of I can't convince you you are wrong or you can not convince me. Bottom line if either one of us were an owner of an NFL team we would not hire each other to be GM.

Yup, but I've enjoyed the discussion and I respect where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with it.

Cheers :beer2:

 

[Wolverine]

I am gonna say keep Bill and Bledsoe another 3 years.


Bledsoe threw 23 TD passes behind the worse line in the NFL. He threw more TD passes then INTs also. When Bledsoe actually had time to throw the ball before Adams got injured Bledsoe was at one time the highest rated QB in the NFL and in the top 3 for a long time.

He does not have as good as talent around him like Manning and some of the other big number QBs. So I think Bledsoe did a very good job with everything he had goin against him.

If our OL did its job like it did when Adams was still playing I think Bledsoe would had over 30 TD passes and over 4000 yards. Bledsoe is not a problem and he is still extremely tuff. He has some more years left in him.

Improve the talent on the OL and at WR and then I do not think anyone will b**** about Bledsoe.

If Henson should do great in NFLE and beat out Bledsoe for the job I would love it. But I dont think that will happen. Bledsoe is alot better then some people think.


BP keep him here. We are a good OL away from winning #6. Those who want BP gone will be glad after the 06 season that he stayed....if he stays.

Bledsoe is good nuff to win us a Super Bowl or 2. Just take a look at our offense when the OL was just average and not even good. Our offense did good.