Disturbing Quote by Stephen Jones re: Ratliff

[MichaelWinicki]

Ratliff was the 7th rated NT/DT in the NFL last year per PFF.

That in itself is a great reason to keep him where he is.

 

[Reality]

I'm supposed to be disturbed by this?

It's okay .. you were "disturbed" well before this thread

#reality

 

[Hostile]

It's okay .. you were "disturbed" well before this thread

#reality

If I tried to deny that lightning would fry me.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Yeah, well good coaches use their players strengths and minimize their weaknesses so they look and listen.

So let's weaken the rest of the front 7 to make sure we get the most out of one player? That sounds like a great plan.

 

[the_h0wey]

I can't believe he said that!!!! I am so disturbed.

 

[DallasEast]

There are a couple of things which are taken into account if you are an offensive coordinator planning to attack a defense:

a) You break down your field of attack primarily into three zones--with two zones laying on the outside of your tackles and one inner zone between your tackles.

b) You identify the defense's greatest strengths along its front seven. This must be done to expose and exploit holes in the first and second lines of defense on running plays and divert blocking resources to shield your quarterback on passing down more effectively.

Presently, 'B' is obvious (or it should be) as it pertains to the Dallas Cowboys' defensive front seven: Jay Ratliff and Demarcus Ware.

Now, I would like CZ's pseudo-coaches to assume the role of offensive coordinator while including these two criteria in your gameplan for Dallas:

• Ratliff at right or left defensive end
• A big body at nosetackle (and yes, that is completely and basically what some are throwing into this discussion)

Counter-strategy #1: Ratliff and Ware are posed to attack from your left tackle.

Question: What are your plans to run and pass the ball?

Counter-strategy #2: Ratliff posed to attack from your right tackle and Ware from your left tackle.

Question: What are your plans to run and pass the ball?

Please leave Rob Ryan out of the discussion for a moment. He has Ratliff being gameplanned for in rushing situations where his counterpart must scheme to take Ratliff out of the play--thus minimizing penetration between the tackles (e.g. the middle zone)--and gambling that the OC will not test the weakside as often because of Ware--which re-enforces his zone of protection. That influences Ryan's counterpart to consider taking as much advantage of the remaining zone in most rushing opportunities--which directly or indirectly creates discussion among members here involving Anthony Spencer whether some understand it or not.

In passing situations, regardless of any effective push Ratliff can generate up the gut into the quarterback's face, Ryan knows his counterpart will dedicate primary interior lineman resources for his nosetackle on practically every play. Ware? He knows that the other guy is praying that his tackle can fend him off long enough to get the ball off; and, if necessary, assign a running back as an extra shield primarily to deal with Ware.

In the end, Ryan is faced with getting base pressure (AND not necessarily fan fantasy-friendly sacks) on the quarterback from his...

...wait for it...

...his defensive ends.

That's where Ryan sits at. That's what his fellow coaches see. That's communicated between the coaches and the front office. He knows that moving Ratliff to defensive end either situationally or permanently is optional. He also knows that it is not an imperative. And as a defensive coordinator, it is imperative that you position your resources to their maximum efficiency or factor in greater opportunities for defensive breakdowns.

P.S. Don't forget to remember plugging in that big body nosetackle question mark into your gameplans!

/end

 

[bsheeern]

Disagree. No player has earned the right to dictate coaching decisions. Or even influence coaching decisions. Players play. Coaches coach. The line between them should never be blurred.

I think that the Tom Brady, Peyton manning and Bill B disagree. Tim Tebow?

I asked a former nfl player " do players earn the right to dictate or influence or coaching decisions"?

His exact words "any coach that tells you that they dont that isn't telling the whole story. Especially in today's professional sports. It's a major part of coaching professional athletes."

I asked him why to explain why they do it but not admit to doin it. Again his exact words, " coaches have to walk that fine line of being in control but also getting players to buy into what they are selling. It's hard to sell some guys on things that they know they aren't best suited for. An Example would be a coach coming to Demarcus Ware and telling him he's going to start playing LB in a 4-3. Sure ware would do give his all to make the switch but not only would it be hard to sell him on it but it also makes the other players start to doubt the coaches philosophy. That's what gets coaches fired more now than ever."

So I tend to listen to this guy when he tells me stuff like this. He tells me what really goes down inside that locker room that most players and coaches would never tell the media.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I'm supposed to be disturbed by this?

You personally?

No, you shouldn't.

Fans who read and evaluate from the little information we gather from a press, fed to them what the team wants us to hear?

Yes, they probably think on this and wonder why the player is dictating things.

Singularly, this would be no big whoop.

Married with so many other individual incidents from this management and coaching staff, it makes one wonder.

I don't ever see Tom Landry having any open dialog with a player about the position he would play. It was tried. I offer you Todd Christensen.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19840110&id=kyBWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Uz8NAAAAIBAJ&pg=5641,6862315

Landry wanted to move him to tight end. He tried it for a week and then said no.

Two weeks later he was gone. Went on to be a big deal with the Raiders.

You may have heard of him, Hos. He was a first team all-pro for Oakland and Al Davis.

At tight end.

Landry knew better and when the player resisted, he was gone.

Jimmy Johnson? He never ran a democratic team here. Ever. His way or no way.

Is it earth shattering that Rat wants to stay at nose?

No, in the big scheme of things it is not something like Ware deciding to retire and become a shoe salesman.

But for some who have a more discerning taste about this team, and put all the two plus twos together, it has a significance.

Because this is another brick in the wall of how the management appears to make weak decisions.

Want Rat at end, which I have called for the last two years.

"Rat, you're at end now, not nose."

"But coach..."

"It's a done deal."

I guess that isn't in any management book this team owns.

 

[TwoDeep3]

There are a couple of things which are taken into account if you are an offensive coordinator planning to attack a defense:

a) You break down your field of attack primarily into three zones--with two zones laying on the outside of your tackles and one inner zone between your tackles.

b) You identify the defense's greatest strengths along its front seven. This must be done to expose and exploit holes in the first and second lines of defense on running plays and divert blocking resources to shield your quarterback on passing down more effectively.

Presently, 'B' is obvious (or it should be) as it pertains to the Dallas Cowboys' defensive front seven: Jay Ratliff and Demarcus Ware.

Now, I would like CZ's pseudo-coaches to assume the role of offensive coordinator while including these two criteria in your gameplan for Dallas:

• Ratliff at right or left defensive end
• A big body at nosetackle (and yes, that is completely and basically what some are throwing into this discussion)

Counter-strategy #1: Ratliff and Ware are posed to attack from your left tackle.

Question: What are your plans to run and pass the ball?

Counter-strategy #2: Ratliff posed to attack from your right tackle and Ware from your left tackle.

Question: What are your plans to run and pass the ball?

Please leave Rob Ryan out of the discussion for a moment. He has Ratliff being gameplanned for in rushing situations where his counterpart must scheme to take Ratliff out of the play--thus minimizing penetration between the tackles (e.g. the middle zone)--and gambling that the OC will not test the weakside as often because of Ware--which re-enforces his zone of protection. That influences Ryan's counterpart to consider taking as much advantage of the remaining zone in most rushing opportunities--which directly or indirectly creates discussion among members here involving Anthony Spencer whether some understand it or not.

In passing situations, regardless of any effective push Ratliff can generate up the gut into the quarterback's face, Ryan knows his counterpart will dedicate primary interior lineman resources for his nosetackle on practically every play. Ware? He knows that the other guy is praying that his tackle can fend him off long enough to get the ball off; and, if necessary, assign a running back as an extra shield primarily to deal with Ware.

In the end, Ryan is faced with getting base pressure (AND not necessarily fan fantasy-friendly sacks) on the quarterback from his...

...wait for it...

...his defensive ends.

That's where Ryan sits at. That's what his fellow coaches see. That's communicated between the coaches and the front office. He knows that moving Ratliff to defensive end either situationally or permanently is optional. He also knows that it is not an imperative. And as a defensive coordinator, it is imperative that you position your resources to their maximum efficiency or factor in greater opportunities for defensive breakdowns.

P.S. Don't forget to remember plugging in that big body nosetackle question mark into your gameplans!

/end

Dallas - since stats are the Holy grail around here, go back and look at Rat and his back-up for tackles this past season.

All the commentary you gave sounds...learned...but where does the other team truly attack?

For Dallas, it is up the middle.

Why?, because Rat, in all his glory, still can be moved out of the play with a double team.

Because we have ends and an OLB that tend to get out of position or beat regularly.

 

[DallasEast]

Dallas - since stats are the Holy grail around here, go back and look at Rat and his back-up for tackles this past season.

All the commentary you gave sounds...learned...but where does the other team truly attack?

For Dallas, it is up the middle.

Why?, because Rat, in all his glory, still can be moved out of the play with a double team.

Exactly. It's a numbers game. In a 3-4, subtracting one blocker involved a double team in a match-up of the defense's triangle strength (nosetackle plus inside linebackers) adds one tackler to avoid his assigned blocker and take down the running back. It is precisely what a 3-4 defensive coordinator wants. Any significant yardage gains or just busted plays is either lack of execution or the ineffectiveness of one of the inside linebackers to get the job done.

Because we have ends and an OLB that tend to get out of position or beat regularly.

Regardless of whether it is a 4-3 or 3-4, the ends funnel running plays designed between the tackles inside for either the defensive tackles (4-3) or the inside linebackers (3-4) to make the play. The outside linebacker's first responsibility is to prevent any cutback's by the running back if the designed run play breaks down THEN make the tackle.

DeMarcus Ware has always been disciplined enough to bring down backs who bounce runs to the outside. Anthony Spencer? As a strongside linebacker, he should be even more disciplined than Ware in this aspect. But he sometimes allows himself to be blocked inside and expose the sideline for a back to break off runs. Whether he's with Dallas in 2013 or not, this is one part of his gain that he must get better at. It doesn't even matter if it's the tight end or wide receiver cracking down inside to seal the run. He must establish containment no matter what.

 

[sonnyboy]

After I read Stephen Jone's latest comments, I was a little concerned to hear him say this on the NT position not so much for the scheme we go with but WHY we go with it. Well, I'm lying, I gotta admit I am a believer of the bigger NT pushing the pocket back philosophy when you have a HOF outside pass rusher in DeMarcus Ware in order to maximize your pass rush potential. Not to mention it makes his earlier statements of having an ideal MILB crew of Lee and Carter hard to establish. Both are undersized ILB's with speed who need some cover, even though Lee has shown to be just fine in our current system seem unrealistic. Here is the quote I'm talking about,

" Ratliff might have a longer career at the 5 tech, but its hard to convince a player to move when he’s had so much success there. He likes taking advantage of those slow guards and centers. Both Ryan and Wade have said they can go with either style nosetackle, they just need to know what they have so they can scheme accordingly".

Why would they be trying to CONVINCE him to switch to the 5 tech unless it was an idea populated by the staff? So Ratliff chooses our defensive philosophy of being the one 3-4 team without a prototypical NT?

For the posters with the "RATLIFF IS NOT MOVING TO DE, GET OVER IT" need to rethink their positions. The staff has obviously wanted to tinker with the fronts but have stalled that transition until Ratliff has changed his willingness to play some DE in the 3-4 rotation. Why bring in a prototypical 3-4 NT when you know it will only make your best pass rushing lineman disgruntled for moving to a position he doesn't feel he is best suited for? IS that the reason for the lack of activity on NT front?

Of course Ratliff should play the inside in the nickel pass rush, but he shouldn't be our NT on running downs. Our staff seems to know it but I guess don't have the guts to make it ugly?

BTW, I know our RUN D was fine last year (7th I believe, not sure on that one), I'm speaking of the opponent's 3-step drops where a big NT could push a c/g into a QB's face and interrupt the timing, giving our outside rushers more time and our corners and opportunity to jump routes. Sorry for the rant...

"RATLIFF IS NOT MOVING TO DE, GET OVER IT" signed president of the RATLIFF IS NOT MOVING TO DE, GET OVER IT fan club.

 

[Wahoo Cowboy]

I haven't read through this thread, because I can't stomach another 5 pages of the move-Ratliff-to-DE debate.

But Stephen also said, if I'm not mistaken, the move is something they would more consider if they had a player like Wilfork of Ngata. Obviously, we don't, and just any big-bodied NT the Cowboys draft isn't going to be Wilfork or Ngata. Men like that are able to plug the middle AND provide pressure via pushing the pocket. Round 3 Generic Pet Cat Big NT, well, he can plug the middle, but he probably isn't going to provide much in the way of pass rush. If he could, then he wouldn't be there in round 3, would he?

It's clear the Cowboys have Ratliff at NT because of the pressure he can provide up the middle versus the run-stuffing fat guy. I'm sure the Cowboys would love to have a player like Wilfork or Ngata, but they're rare for a reason. They're not gonna stick some JAG in there because he weighs 30 more pounds than Ratliff and watch the pass rush suffer as a result.

 

[iceberg]

I'm supposed to be disturbed by this?

my raging apathy is in full gear.

 

[jday]

I probably went overboard with saying Ryan's job is at risk IF he pushed to replace Ratliff as the starting NT but I think many overestimate the honesty a DC would have with the GM who also happens to pay his paychecks and determines his future based on ALLOWING him to make other pivotal decisions outside of the NT/Ratliff decision.

Previous comments like, "Brockers could have been the NT if we drafted him...or we need a premium difference making big NT to rationalize replacing a Ratliff as starting NT. Ryan doesn't have the freedom to roll out a starting NT without considerable pedigree due to the FO's affection with Ratliff and the financial investment involved.

Like many have said, Ratliff wouldn't be AS disruptive in terms of his personal production, but he could be more influential in terms of improving the pass rush by assisting at end with a real NT to push to pocket back, leading to more sacks from outside rushers. You guys act like there is only one option (singing along with the FO) while others would like to see some improvement or EFFORT in improving this obvious lacking area.

Ratliff has worn down throughout the last two seasons and that is well known by most fans who simply watch the games. The better question to our FO/coaching staff is why are we ALLOWING him this opportunity to get worn down early, making him nearly worthless as a 4th quarter pass rusher later in the year? As some have hinted and I agree with, this structure just doesn't seem beneficial to the performance of the defense as a WHOLE. Ratliff simply doesn't offer enough disruption as a pass rusher to warrant to not signing a sufficient pocket collapser to help our outside rushers and corners.

Truthfully, I am somewhat torn on the whole idea. While I do agree we need to upgrade our DL, I'm not sure Ratliff's transition to DE would be much of an upgrade at this point in his career. Personally, I think he is too small for the 3-4 DE, as well. I realize his measurables compare with many DE in the 3-4 throughout the league, but I think the ideal DL contains players who all can absorb more than one block so that the LB can make plays. I realize that Ratliff already does that at the DT position, but you have to keep in mind, that he gets a better jump off the ball than most Centers and Guards, but his overall speed is not going to suprise most Tackles in this league and once most of the Tackles in this league get their paws on him, it's probably game over for Ratliff.

 

[Future]

This is such an ignorant, bold faced lie that I wish we could bet money on this and have you back up such silly talk.

For someone who goes back and watches games religiously, I find your statement to be extremely ludicrous. You can go a 4 game stretch and not see Rat pushed 3 yards back by a double team.

Chill, it's an exaggeration, didn't mean it as fact.

 

[Bluestang]

Jon Machota‏@jonmachota
Baker on thought Ratliff should move to DE: "I’m trying 2 identify who has that thought b/c nobody that matters 2 me does have that thought"



Problem solved guys.

 

[67CowboysFan]

Jobs in the NFL are probably like jobs anyplace else. If you're boss wants to move you, he's going to talk to you about it to see what you think. If he's a good boss, he'll factor your feedback into his decision making process. Only a neanderthal would try to make the decision in a vacuum.

Plus, moving Rat would be a mistake, anyway. People have been wanting to do it for years, and it's been dumb for years. How 'bout we add an impact player to the roster at DE? Or maybe we got lucky and we just did.

Rafael Vela just happened to touch on this subject today.

For years, I've argued that nose tackle Jay Ratliff belongs on the nose and will finish his career on the nose. See here, here, here, here, here and here. And every spring and every fall, I've heard the argument that a "true" nose tackle, who can magically crack pockets, and move Ratliff to DE, will save the Cowboys defense. It rises and lingers, like the myth of the Great Pumpkin.

Bill Parcells, Mike Zimmer, Wade Phillips and Rob Ryan have all left Ratliff on the nose, and still the calls for that great pumpkin of a man leads the true-nose tackle Linuses out into the draft, pumpkin patch every April.

http://www.cowboyszone.com/2012/05/its-great-nose-tackle-pumpkin-charlie.html

 

[Future]

i think ratliff is a good player. i believe the lack of pressure up the middle has more to do with the below average defensive ends.

Talking about pass rush, it's not really worth it to think of the 3-4 since they aren't in that set on pass plays all that often. In terms of pass-rushing ends...Ware/Spencer are about as good as it gets.

I think alot depends on how Rat plays this year. If he gets worn down by the en of games and is not getting a push up the middle, I think his time at NT might be over.

Getting worn down has been a problem two years in a row now.

I admire the guy, but one man can only do so much.

 

[Risen Star]

Ratliff was the 7th rated NT/DT in the NFL last year per PFF.

That in itself is a great reason to keep him where he is.

Or a great reason to quit visiting PFF.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Talking about pass rush, it's not really worth it to think of the 3-4 since they aren't in that set on pass plays all that often. In terms of pass-rushing ends...Ware/Spencer are about as good as it gets.


Getting worn down has been a problem two years in a row now.

I admire the guy, but one man can only do so much.

I would like to see the supporting info that shows Ratliff was "worn down" at the end of last season.

I won't even bother posting any PFF info that shows that it's not true.

Show me what supporting you have that shows that it is.