DMN: Blog: Breer: Talib invited to Valley Ranch

[masomenos]

I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but I don't even think Jenkins or McKelvin are worth taking in the first round. They both have questionable instincts, balls skills and anticipation and despite Jenkins 40 time he's not even an elite athlete at the position. Neither player was dominant, or really even above average against lower competition. If Jenkins fell to us at 22 or 28 and was the only "big name CB" left I would pass and/or try to trade down in a heartbeat.

 

[Woods]

I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but I don't even think Jenkins or McKelvin are worth taking in the first round. They both have questionable instincts, balls skills and anticipation and despite Jenkins 40 time he's not even an elite athlete at the position. Neither player was dominant, or really even above average against lower competition. If Jenkins fell to us at 22 or 28 and was the only "big name CB" left I would pass and/or try to trade down in a heartbeat.

You definitely aren't the first to voice this opinion.

I've heard the same about both players.

Personally, my top 2 CBs are Cromartie and Cason.

I think we'll have a legitimate shot at Cason at 22, and I'll be happy.

 

[theogt]

I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but I don't even think Jenkins or McKelvin are worth taking in the first round. They both have questionable instincts, balls skills and anticipation and despite Jenkins 40 time he's not even an elite athlete at the position. Neither player was dominant, or really even above average against lower competition. If Jenkins fell to us at 22 or 28 and was the only "big name CB" left I would pass and/or try to trade down in a heartbeat.

I completely agree.

 

[ethiostar]

Be still my heart.

 

[jdnoyes]

I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but I don't even think Jenkins or McKelvin are worth taking in the first round. They both have questionable instincts, balls skills and anticipation and despite Jenkins 40 time he's not even an elite athlete at the position. Neither player was dominant, or really even above average against lower competition. If Jenkins fell to us at 22 or 28 and was the only "big name CB" left I would pass and/or try to trade down in a heartbeat.

Not at all I'm with you. For whatever reason I see bust written all over Jenkins, and I'm not totally sold on McKelvin either. Mayok is smoking crack this year. Cason not in his top 5? My CB list as of right now is:

DRC
Cason
McKelvin
Talib
Jenkins

 

[masomenos]

My top 5 right now would be
D.R. Cromartie
Antoine Cason
Aqib Talib
Terrence Wheatley
Chevis Jackson

Now that's not to say I'd draft Wheatley or Jackson in the first, or even second, just because it wouldn't be good value. But in terms of talent level, athleticism and CB intangibles that's about where I'd rank them.

 

[theogt]

1. Cason
2. DRC
3. Terrell Thomas
4. Mike Jenkins
5. Aqib Talib

 

[Bob Sacamano]

My top 5 right now would be
D.R. Cromartie
Antoine Cason
Aqib Talib
Terrence Wheatley
Chevis Jackson

Now that's not to say I'd draft Wheatley or Jackson in the first, or even second, just because it wouldn't be good value. But in terms of talent level, athleticism and CB intangibles that's about where I'd rank them.

I'm curious as to why you have Jackson rated so hight, he's a slow, man-cover corner, he's a bigger Brandon Flowers

 

[theogt]

I'm curious as to why you have Jackson rated so hight, he's a slow, man-cover corner, he's a bigger Brandon Flowers

He has great instincts and reaction. I've told you before about him. I think he could be as good or better than Henry.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

He has great instincts and reaction. I've told you before about him. I think he could be as good or better than Henry.

weren't you knocking Flowers because he was too slow to be a man-cover corner w/ his 4.58 time, which coincidentally, was the same as Jackson's?

 

[theogt]

weren't you knocking Flowers because he was too slow to be a man-cover corner w/ his 4.58 time, which coincidentally, was the same as Jackson's?

I wouldn't draft Jackson before the 3rd round either. I was knocking Flowers because he wasn't a top 10 pick like Mayock was absurdly claiming. Between Jackson and Flowers, though, I would draft Jackson because of his instincts/play-making ability.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I wouldn't draft Jackson before the 3rd round either. I was knocking Flowers because he wasn't a top 10 pick like Mayock was absurdly claiming. Between Jackson and Flowers, though, I would draft Jackson because of his instincts/play-making ability.

gotcha

 

[masomenos]

I'm curious as to why you have Jackson rated so hight, he's a slow, man-cover corner, he's a bigger Brandon Flowers

Like Theo said, he just has some terrific intangibles. He first stuck out when I was watching the LSU bowl game and he was tested deep a few times and was step for step with the guy the whole way, even got a pick on one of them. I came away very impressed and started doing some research on him just to see that there were big questions about his speed. While his 4.52 time certainly isn't anything to write home about he's very fluid at CB and actually has a really good burst moving forward or out of a break. He's very willing in run support and I think if he were used as a teams #2 CB then he could have a ton of success.

That's why I have him so high. People will say that guys like McKelvin and Jenkins have potential to be #1s because of their speed, but they're very raw right now and are bigger project players than people realize. Jackson is more ready to contribute right away though so I see him as a safer pick, and I'd rather take a small chance and end up with a very good #2 than take a really big risk and possibly end up with a #1.

As far as Flowers goes I have him rated about 20 points below Jackson, which effectively would put his talent level around the 4th round.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Like Theo said, he just has some terrific intangibles. He first stuck out when I was watching the LSU bowl game and he was tested deep a few times and was step for step with the guy the whole way, even got a pick on one of them. I came away very impressed and started doing some research on him just to see that there were big questions about his speed. While his 4.52 time certainly isn't anything to write home about he's very fluid at CB and actually has a really good burst moving forward or out of a break. He's very willing in run support and I think if he were used as a teams #2 CB then he could have a ton of success.

you've watched him more than me, so I'll take your guys' word for it

That's why I have him so high. People will say that guys like McKelvin and Jenkins have potential to be #1s because of their speed, but they're very raw right now and are bigger project players than people realize. Jackson is more ready to contribute right away though so I see him as a safer pick, and I'd rather take a small chance and end up with a very good #2 than take a really big risk and possibly end up with a #1.

I wouldn't mind drafting Jackson, but he wouldn't be my 1st selection at CB, I'd draft 2, w/ him being the 2nd one, w/ a guy like Leodis, who you're right, is extremely raw, but he has great potential

As far as Flowers goes I have him rated about 20 points below Jackson, which effectively would put his talent level around the 4th round.

yeah, I don't really get the love for FLowers, he's not that big, and he's slow

for the record: I'm not as high on this class for CBs as most people are

 

[Bob Sacamano]

but for ****s and giggles

1. Antoine Cason
2. DRC
3. Aqib Talib
4. Tracy Porter (he doesn't have the intangibles, but he has everything else)
5. Mike Jenkins
5b. Patrick Lee
5c. Leodis McKelvin

 

[masomenos]

I wouldn't mind drafting Jackson, but he wouldn't be my 1st selection at CB, I'd draft 2, w/ him being the 2nd one, w/ a guy like Leodis, who you're right, is extremely raw, but he has great potential

Yeah that's exactly what I would try to do with Jackson too. I wouldn't want him to be the only CB we drafted.

yeah, I don't really get the love for FLowers, he's not that big, and he's slow

I think it's because he only allowed like 19% of the passes to be completed on him, which is a phenomenal number. But his rate of making plays on the ball was just average so I think that completion percentage is misleading and Flower's assignments probably had a large number of drops and/or uncatchable balls.

for the record: I'm not as high on this class for CBs as most people are

Yeah I don't think it's as talented at the top as people think. There's only three guys projected in the first 2 rounds that I think are going to live up to their draft position. Guys like Porter I think will get drafted too high and won't really be prepared to make an impact like people will want while if he were drafted in the 4th, which about where I'd take him then teams would get a lot more value for their pick.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah I don't think it's as talented at the top as people think. There's only three guys projected in the first 2 rounds that I think are going to live up to their draft position. Guys like Porter I think will get drafted too high and won't really be prepared to make an impact like people will want while if he were drafted in the 4th, which about where I'd take him then teams would get a lot more value for their pick.

there's too much going for Porter to not be taken w/in the 1st 2 rounds

he has some things that you just can't teach

btw, what do you think of me list?

 

[masomenos]

there's too much going for Porter to not be taken w/in the 1st 2 rounds

he has some things that you just can't teach

btw, what do you think of me list?

He's also missing a lot of things that you can't teach though. I'm sure he will be drafted Rd 2 though, I just wouldn't be the one do it.

This is how I have your list rated:

Cason: 5.5
Cromartie: 6.5
Talib: 5.5
Porter: 4.0
Jenkins: 2.5
Lee: 3.0
McKelvin: 4.5

For reference Terrence Newman would have been a 7.0 and Anthony Henry would have been a 5.0. Now there's no real cap on what a players score can be, but to see something over 6 or even 5 is pretty rare. I won't get into full detail of the formula but its based on both college production and the combine. Even half a point is a pretty substantial difference in this system though. So as far as the players you have listed I would rank them like

1. Cromartie - Talent Level: Early Round 1
2a. Cason - Talent Level: Late Round 1/Early Round 2
2b. Talib - Talent Level: Late Round 1/Early Round 2
3. McKelvin - Talent Level: Late Round 2/Early Round 3
4. Porter -Talent Level: Round 3
5. Lee - Talent Level: Round 4
6. Jenkins - Talent Level: Late Round 4/Early Round 5

I'm still working with the Talent Levels a little bit but that's around where I'll have the final levels, give or take a half a round or so.

 

[5mics]

Talib at safety not corner. That all I'm gonna say.

I'd take him w/ our 28th but NOT at 22nd. I know you've seen him BDC living in Kansas and all and I agree w/ you, he makes me uneasy at CB for us.....

 

[tyke1doe]

Be still my heart.

I'm on him too. We may have to fight over whose heart beats faster.