DMN Blog: Cowboys in Miami... Roy blurb

[JPM]

Too lazy? That is about what I expect from you. All talk, no substance to back it up. You want to talk about facts and all you bring to the table is "The trend for Roy is being a playmaking, badass safety". Oh, good argument.

"One of the league's best players".....I'm not even sure he is one of the league's best safety. Baseless rhetoric that you attempt to claim as "fact", but are too lazy to support.

Where are your "authoritative quotes" and "facts"?

Let's start with the basics. Dallas pass defense. It was ranked 24th in the league in yards allowed. How about touchdowns allowed? Even worse...29th with a total of 25 allowed.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-PASSING/2006/regular?&_1:col_1=9

You yourself said Roy "only" gave up 8. Well, that is 32% of the touchdowns allowed by the entire defense being directly attributed to Roy.

He had the fewest tackles of his career. He had no sacks and no forced fumbles.

All I could find from Adam was a selective set of stats comparing him against certain other safeties. These are your facts? I'd certainly need something much more comprehensive than that to absolve Roy of all blame. I'd also certainly want more than that before I went off half cocked accusing people of ""Roy sucks" in neon lights on their tiny buses, and they're wearing earmuffs". Nice of you to try to call me ******** in a not so subtle manner. Classy.

The Dallas pass defense obviously struggled this year. At the middle of that was a safety who recently signed a blockbuster deal and proceeded to have one of his worst statistical years to date.

But, go ahead and keep calling me names. It won't improve on Roy's dreadful performance from last year.

This good enough ?

Roy finished with more tackles than he had last season, more interceptions, more than twice as many passes broken up and fewer completions allowed. And he had the same number of quarterback pressures -- even though the coaching staff was much more generous awarding pressures last year than this year.

Roy's only problem this year was that he was involved in allowing eight TD passes (according to STATS LLC.) -- some when he was in man-to-man coverage and some when he was helping someone else (or ran into the ref). In several games, he was involved in allowing only one or two catches -- but one was a TD catch, so people think he had a bad game in coverage. If he had allowed more catches but fewer touchdowns, he'd probably get a lot less criticism than he has gotten.

Adrian Wilson allowed far more catches and more yards, and he had fewer interceptions and PDs, but he allowed "only" six touchdowns, so he escapes criticism. Ed Reed allowed more catches and more yards, had fewer PDs, had the same number of interceptions and allowed six touchdowns. Sean Taylor allowed more catches and more yards, had far fewer interceptions and far fewer PDs, AND he led the league in TD catches allowed -- 11. Taylor also led the league BY FAR in missed tackles with 19, the highest total in the 11 years that STATS has been keeping track of them.

So tell me -- why is Roy the only one of those who is heavily criticized in the media?

 

[Idgit]

This good enough ?

It sure is for me. Pretty cool.

 

[junk]

This good enough ?

Simply, no.

Roy finished with more tackles than he had last season, more interceptions, more than twice as many passes broken up and fewer completions allowed.

First off, Roy did not have more tackles than last season. Not total or solo. Well documented. He also had fewer sacks and fewer forced fumbles. He also did not have more than twice as many pass defensed. Who knows about completions allowed, but the rest of those stats are inaccurate.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=3536
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302238

And he had the same number of quarterback pressures -- even though the coaching staff was much more generous awarding pressures last year than this year.

Uh, OK. This is hardly a "fact". This is speculation.

Roy's only problem this year was that he was involved in allowing eight TD passes (according to STATS LLC.) -- some when he was in man-to-man coverage and some when he was helping someone else (or ran into the ref). In several games, he was involved in allowing only one or two catches -- but one was a TD catch, so people think he had a bad game in coverage. If he had allowed more catches but fewer touchdowns, he'd probably get a lot less criticism than he has gotten.

So when aren't TD catches important? It wasn't just the frequency that he was burned, it was how badly he looked when it happened and how it happened in the same manner on many occasions.

Adrian Wilson allowed far more catches and more yards, and he had fewer interceptions and PDs, but he allowed "only" six touchdowns, so he escapes criticism. Ed Reed allowed more catches and more yards, had fewer PDs, had the same number of interceptions and allowed six touchdowns. Sean Taylor allowed more catches and more yards, had far fewer interceptions and far fewer PDs, AND he led the league in TD catches allowed -- 11. Taylor also led the league BY FAR in missed tackles with 19, the highest total in the 11 years that STATS has been keeping track of them.

Selective criteria again. How about Chris Hope? I really don't care that much if other safeties suck. I'm mainly concerned with Roy. Just because safety play is down around the league, I should defend Roy's poor play?

So tell me -- why is Roy the only one of those who is heavily criticized in the media?

Dallas fans only see and hear what they want. Other players are criticized as well. Why is Roy the only player that gets such a free pass when he plays poorly?

I cannot believe you are criticizing me and alluding to the fact that I am ******** and this is the best you can come up with. Half of it isn't even right.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Dallas fans only see and hear what they want.

really? cuz last year all I heard how great Troy Polamalu was although he was worse than Roy Williams

 

[BigDFan5]

roy's still ducking the press i see.

two flakes representing the cowboys unfortunately

By "ducking the press" you mean being at the press conference answering questions, and leaving when it was over? ducking indeed.

 

[BigDFan5]

:laugh2:

Do you expect Dat to throw Roy under the bus? Would you really expect him to tell the media that Roy struggled in coverage last year?

Because if you honestly believe Roy Williams had a good year in coverage (or in general), you are fooling yourself.

If he thought Roy sucked or anything of the sort he would have avoided the subject or not answered.

Most people dont rail at the media and fan perception of a player if they believe the media and fans are right

 

[superpunk]

This good enough ?

You can see from his response why I didn't bother with it.

 

[junk]

You can see from his response why I didn't bother with it.

:laugh2:

Or because you don't have a valid response.

You rant and rave about "facts", more or less try to call me ******** and all you can come up with is a post (from someone else) that is factually incorrect.

BTW, here are the STATS LLC stats for Roy last year. They show even fewer tackles than the other sites.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5894/

If you're going to talk, be prepared to back it up. Nothing but hot air.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

:laugh2:

Or because you don't have a valid response.

You rant and rave about "facts", more or less try to call me ******** and all you can come up with is a post (from someone else) that is factually incorrect.

BTW, here are the STATS LLC stats for Roy last year. They show even fewer tackles than the other sites.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5894/

If you're going to talk, be prepared to back it up. Nothing but hot air.

yet he tied his career high for INTs and had the most passes defensed of his career, hmmm

 

[junk]

yet he tied his career high for INTs and had the most passes defensed of his career, hmmm

Gave up 32% of the team's touchdowns and was part of a pass defense that was ranked 24th in the league. hmmm

 

[spindoc]

The stats have been posted in here 100 times. I'm not posting them again because I don't feel like getting in an enormous debate defending one of the league's best players ...

Seriously, please stop. He is not one of the league's best players. You cannot honestly believe that. It's great to be a fan of a particular player, but let's not go off the deep end.

Since you like to use selective stats, maybe you can find a stat site that keeps track of how many times Roy can drop an interception or miss a tackle.

Roy had a bad year. I'm shocked that some people find that statement debatable. Hopefully he will play better next year and hopefully he will be used closer to the line of scrimmage.

 

[superpunk]

Or because you don't have a valid response.

You rant and rave about "facts", more or less try to call me ******** and all you can come up with is a post (from someone else) that is factually incorrect.

BTW, here are the STATS LLC stats for Roy last year. They show even fewer tackles than the other sites.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5894/

If you're going to talk, be prepared to back it up. Nothing but hot air.

Why would I respond? He just reposted the exact stats I mentioned. I can bring those up, you'll brush them off. I can bring up his fantastic PD and INT numbers for a safety this year, you'll brush that off. I can show comparatively how Roy allowed 32% of our passing TDs, but Ed Reed allowed 38% of the Ravens passing TDs, more yards and a higer pct. than Roy, you'll brush it off and tell me that you couldn't care less about other safeties. (well...YOU will say could care less - but I know what you mean.) I could show you how few (if any) safeties have made the same number of impact plays as Roy over the span of his career - you'll brush it off.

So why should I bother? Your mind's made up - facts be damned.

If only Roy had more tackles.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Gave up 32% of the team's touchdowns and was part of a pass defense that was ranked 24th in the league. hmmm

and Ed Reed, all-world safety, gave up 38% of his team's touchdowns

and Terrence Newman was part of a pass D that was ranked 24th in the league too, guess he sucks also

 

[superpunk]

and Ed Reed, all-world safety, gave up 50% of his team's touchdowns

Check the math on that - Reed gave up 6 TDs.

and Terrence Newman was part of a pass D that was ranked 24th in the league too, guess he sucks also

I say we cut him - or feed him a biscuit.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Check the math on that - Reed gave up 6 TDs.

D'OH! I thought it was 8

 

[AdamJT13]

First off, Roy did not have more tackles than last season. Not total or solo. Well documented.

The ONLY place tackles are an "official" statistic is for the team, and the team says Roy had 86 tackles in 2006 and 82 tackles in 2005. Those numbers were compiled by the defensive coaches.

He also did not have more than twice as many pass defensed.

Again, according to the defensive coaches, Roy had 17 PDs in 2006, compared to eight PDs in 2005.

Uh, OK. This is hardly a "fact". This is speculation.

No, it's just what I said. According to the defensive coaches, Roy had the same number of quarterback pressures in 2006 as he did in in 2005, even though the coaches were much more generous awarding pressures in 2005.

Selective criteria again. How about Chris Hope?

According to STATS, Hope allowed 12 more catches, 44 more yards and a completion rate 15.5 percentage points higher, and he allowed only one fewer touchdown.

I really don't care that much if other safeties ****. I'm mainly concerned with Roy. Just because safety play is down around the league, I should defend Roy's poor play?

It's called perspective. And any analysis is worthless without it.

 

[Rack]

The ONLY place tackles are an "official" statistic is for the team, and the team says Roy had 86 tackles in 2006 and 82 tackles in 2005. Those numbers were compiled by the defensive coaches.



Again, according to the defensive coaches, Roy had 17 PDs in 2006, compared to eight PDs in 2005.



No, it's just what I said. According to the defensive coaches, Roy had more quarterback pressures in 2005 than in 2005, even though the coaches were much more generous awarding pressures in 2005.



According to STATS, Hope allowed 12 more catches, 44 more yards and a completion rate 15.5 percentage points higher, and he allowed only one fewer touchdown.




It's called perspective. And any analysis is worthless without it.

junk's arse is blood red right about now.

Cuz he just got SPANKED.


No but eventhough ex-players directly involved with Roy and our D and the freakin' STATS say otherwise, Roy must suck because junk says so.

 

[JPM]

The ONLY place tackles are an "official" statistic is for the team, and the team says Roy had 86 tackles in 2006 and 82 tackles in 2005. Those numbers were compiled by the defensive coaches.



Again, according to the defensive coaches, Roy had 17 PDs in 2006, compared to eight PDs in 2005.



No, it's just what I said. According to the defensive coaches, Roy had the same number of quarterback pressures in 2006 as he did in in 2005, even though the coaches were much more generous awarding pressures in 2005.



According to STATS, Hope allowed 12 more catches, 44 more yards and a completion rate 15.5 percentage points higher, and he allowed only one fewer touchdown.




It's called perspective. And any analysis is worthless without it.

Why would you bring up Chris Hope and then dismiss all other safties ? Then you go on the say you don't care about othere safites. How are you judging Roy's play then ?

Stats damned !

 

[junk]

junk's arse is blood red right about now.

Cuz he just got SPANKED.


No but eventhough ex-players directly involved with Roy and our D and the freakin' STATS say otherwise, Roy must suck because junk says so.

Not really. Uh, the only stats you guys have to support your stance are the ones that are "official" which of course you can't show me or provide links to. You vaguely reference STATS LLC even though I provided a link to STATS LLC showing the original tackles numbers are incorrect (I say "you" in this instance referring to AdamJT13 because you and superpunk lack the ability to provide any real numbers on your own.....rather just try to pass off someone's else unverified data as fact and then call names).

Very convenient that the only "official" stats that matter are ones that links aren't provided for. I went off of the NFL site and STATS LLC. The Cowboys main stats page links directly to NFL.com.

He certainly didn't play great last year and he certainly doesn't deserve the defense he gets around here. I am simply stating that he played poorly and everyone gets bent out of shape if you don't call him the best thing since sliced bread. He did not play like any kind of superstar last year.

But, go ahead and keep those Cowboys colored glasses on. This reminds me of the Quincy Carter fans who'd blindly defend their guy even as he struggled.

Do you guys even watch the games? Do you think pass defense down the field and in the middle of the field was good this year? Honestly?

 

[superpunk]

Not really. Uh, the only stats you guys have to support your stance are the ones that are "official" which of course you can't show me or provide links to. You vaguely reference STATS LLC even though I provided a link to STATS LLC showing the original tackles numbers are incorrect (I say "you" in this instance referring to AdamJT13 because you and superpunk lack the ability to provide any real numbers on your own.....rather just try to pass off someone's else unverified data as fact and then call names).

(a) There is no reason to doubt Adam's stuff. It has always been correct. He had Newman as giving up no TDs, then a few months later Parcells put it out there. I don't know what he does, but whatever it is, he's got access to this site, which is not publicly available. But, it is a service NFL teams pay for. Until Adam's stuff starts coming out as not correct, I'll trust it.

(b) I referenced it, with numbers and facts in numerous posts - as did you. I even showed how Reed was responsible for a higher pct. of TDs, yardage, and completions for the Ravens than Roy was for the Cowboys. You, of course, don't care about other safeties.

That is the thing that gets me most about people that bash Roy. The only way ANY analysis can have a foundation is if you look at it comparatively. Otherwise, what is your base? What is your control? In this case, if you're evaluating Roy, you need to compare him to other top safeties in the league, to see if he matches up. If I wanted to evaluate Tony Romo's performance, would it make any sense to not compare it to other QBs? Not at all! If we have no basis for comparison, who the hell cares about a 95 QB rating? It's completely meaningless. The same principle applies to every other position.

Safeties are meant to get beat. It's almost a part of their job. They are (for the most part) going to get beat more frequently than corners. Offenses are designed to attack the safeties, and give them options that are difficult to choose between. The fact that they have so much ground to cover, lends to the higher TD and yardage numbers they surrender. They're like offensive tackles. Tackles will give up more sacks than guards, it's just the way it is. Looking at that in a vacuum, and not in comparison to other tackles, makes no sense. I apologize for the less-than-subtle jab, but honestly, your criteria for your safety analysis, without any comparative data, suggests either very little education or a learning disability. That's not intended to be a jab at you, it's just that stance makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. No data is worth a hill of beans without something to compare it to. Stubbornly ignoring the comparitive data makes it impossible to take anything you say on this matter seriously.

Because if you really don't care about other safeties, then we can say whatever the heck WE want about Roy. I could say that he is the greatest safety ever. I don't care what other safeties have done, Roy is the best ever. And that makes just as much sense as your stubborn refusal to look at Roy comparatively, rather than in the Dallas Cowboys Roy Williams bubble.