Do Cowboys have Best WR unit in NFL?

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by quickccc, May 21, 2021.

  1. Cowboysheelsreds053

    Cowboysheelsreds053 Well-Known Member

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    We have a good group but not the best, to many dropsies for my taste.
     
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  2. Denim Chicken

    Denim Chicken Zone Supporter

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    No doubt Hopkins is better individually than any other WR, but that's not what were talking about. Plus he doesn't have much competition in STL.

    Also, Cooper's ceiling is not 1000. He's gone over that mark thrice in his career. Gallup had over 1100 in 2019 as well. Lamb, as you stated, is too ealry to tell, but 935 as a rookie with Dalton tells me he's we haven't seen anything yet.
     
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  3. tyke1doe

    tyke1doe Well-Known Member

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    Devante Adams was drafted in the second round. But, for the sake of argument, I'll give you Adams. Who else?
    Rodgers has been surrounded by mid-round picks, certainly not picks in the first round. And, yet, he has developed into one of the greatest passing quarterbacks in NFL history. Who do you think was better at what they did - Rodgers or his receivers?

    I don't think I said they wouldn't shine. I think I implied that they would shine more. Or let me just ask you point blank: Do you think the Cowboys receivers would be better with Dak under center than Rodgers?


    Because, silly, I said that a receiver's productivity involves both the quarterback AND offensive philosophy.
    Maybe the Bucs passed more with Winston. Maybe the defense was worse under Winston, which resulted in longer drives compared to the defense Brady played with, giving him a short field to work with.

    There are numerous reasons behind stats. It's the same with people comparing Dak's stats to Rodgers' then concluding Dak is better than Rodgers because, well, the stats say so.

    Be that as it may, I think any reasonable person understands what I'm saying. Obviously, a receiver has to have talent; otherwise, he wouldn't be in the league.

    But, often, a receiver is dependent upon the quarterback and the offensive philosophy.

    If you disagree, so be it.
     
  4. Aerolithe_Lion

    Aerolithe_Lion Well-Known Member

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    A #1 WR is not the guy who beat out the other 5 on the roster. He's the guy you throw to in the big games, he's the guy who produces at the level of a number 1, the guy who's the focal point of your passing offense... the only attributes Cooper has right now that point to him being a #1 WR are potential and rate of pay. There aren't a lot of #1 WRs in the NFL. #1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo, and the team still drafts a WR in the first round anyway. #1's aren't guys talked about getting cut 1-2 years after they sign their first big deal. Is it possible if Lamb breaks out next year that Dallas thinks paying Amari 20m for 2022 doesn't make a lot of sense? That's very possible. And that's probably the best case scenario for the team as well. Amari has been getting force fed the ball the entire first half of his career, and all he has is some pretty good pro bowl seasons to show for it. Now he’s got 2 guys vying for his touches, and they’re improving at a rate beyond what he is. The longer this goes on, the bigger reduction he’ll have in the offense.

    Remember the 2019 Division-deciding game against Philadelphia? If Mike Evans were Dallas's '#1,' how do you think he would have shown up in that game? If it was Davante Adams, how do you think he would have performed? Adam Thielen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreke Hill? Those are guys I would consider tier 2 WR's. Now how did Amari do? Did he take himself out of the game at the end or was he benched? Who knows, that would have never happened had it been Keenan Allen.

    In 2017, Adam Thielen's QB went down with injury, and he proceeded to have a monster year. 1276 yards receiving. They made it to the NFCCG, and we found out next year Keenum still sucked... Thielen was basically carrying him. in 2017, Aaron Rodgers went down with injury, missed most of the season. Davante Adams only played 14 games, mostly with the backup, still caught double digit TDs (which amari has never done), and still made the pro bowl. In 2019, Miami flip flopped between Josh Rosen and Ryan Fitzpatrick, that was ugly. Despite this Devante Parker started 14 games, had 1200 yards receiving and 9 TDs. This can go on and on. 2014, Foles started 8 games, Mark Sanchez started 8 games, Jeremy Maclin still had 1300+ yards despite this. And he was a quintessential #3 WR.

    In week 5 of 2019, his only full year with Dak, he caught 222 yards against green Bay. That represented 19% of his entire production for the season. 1 game out of 16 was 19%. How can that be? Because it was the only game even over 100 yards in that entire 5 game span. He didn't even catch 100 yards in any of the final 7 games of the season... 1 TD in that span too. That's not a #1 WR. He's an extraordinarily streaky player. He has big games, then he disappears for nearly a month.

    Amari Cooper is not a #1 WR because you know he is not reliable enough to be one. He is not particularly special in any real fashion. His hands are good, but he has his share of "mental lapse" drops. He has good speed, but there's always some kind of degenerative issue in his feet the announcers bring up when hes not creating separation. His routes are good, but they're not translating into big numbers like they do for they guys who are great at them.

    When he was in Oakland, people made all these excuses for him. Its the QB, Carr isnt a true franchise guy, he doesnt have the arm. Its the coaching, its the environmen; Oakland itself. Every year Amari has now been in Dallas has looked exactly like he did in Oakland. Dak throwing him the ball, Carr, throwing him the ball, Dalton throwing him the ball. 3 dramatically different QBs, hes still exactly the same, ceiling stays where it is. We're still banging the drum for his potential in year SEVEN. This isnt a year 3 or 4 guy playing for that big payday. Hes 1000 yards, 6 TDs, and thank you for my 20m$.

    So why do I not rank Amari Cooper amongst the true #1 Wr's in the NFL? When that game comes up that will be Dak's career-defining game, people won't expect Cooper to break out and carry the passing offense... they'll simply hope he does. Because it's not a ranking of hope, its a ranking of is. Right now his career looks a whole lot more like Jake Reed than it does Cris Carter.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  5. freemanjc19

    freemanjc19 Well-Known Member

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    "Best" is a tricky word in this argument. I don't want the best WR's in the league. I want the most productive WR's in the league.
     
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  6. rocyaice

    rocyaice Well-Known Member

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    Long post so going to try and break down each point.......

    1.) Cooper is more than a "guy who beat out the other 5 on the roster. :laugh:
    2. "He's the guy you throw to in the big games, he's the guy who produces at the level of a number 1, the guy who's the focal point of your passing offense..." You literally just described Amari Cooper lol.
    3. "#1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo," Huh? So Julio Jones isn't a #1? Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison weren't legit #1's? MIke Evans isn't a legit #1 because he has Godwin? Thielen isn't a legit #1 because he has Jefferson? This is just a odd take.....
    4) "#1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo, and the team still drafts a WR in the first round anyway. ......" Another very odd take....Falcons had Roddy White and Tony Gonzales when they traded UP for to get Julio Jones....Falcons also drafted Calvin Ridley with Julio and Sanu on the team.....so Julio wasn't a #1?
    5)Jason Garrett benching Amari Cooper is no reflection on his #1 status but his own stupidity......
    6. He had 1k yards with Andy Dalton at quarterback and a poor offensive line....'nuff said.

    Remember the 2019 Division-deciding game against Philadelphia? If Mike Evans were Dallas's '#1,' how do you think he would have shown up in that game? If it was Davante Adams, how do you think he would have performed? Adam Thielen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreke Hill? Those are guys I would consider tier 2 WR's. Now how did Amari do? Did he take himself out of the game at the end or was he benched? Who knows, that would have never happened had it been Keenan Allen.

    Remember the 2019 Division-deciding game against Philadelphia? If Mike Evans were Dallas's '#1,' how do you think he would have shown up in that game? If it was Davante Adams, how do you think he would have performed? Adam Thielen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreke Hill? Those are guys I would consider tier 2 WR's. Now how did Amari do? Did he take himself out of the game at the end or was he benched? Who knows, that would have never happened had it been Keenan Allen.
     
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  7. OmerV

    OmerV Zone Supporter

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    There is a middle ground between being the best and being "all hype"
     
  8. rocyaice

    rocyaice Well-Known Member

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    There is....and that's exactly where i'd rank them. Top 10....maybe outside top 5.
     
  9. quickccc

    quickccc Well-Known Member

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    - Smith Schuster has vastly disappointed, Pitt left to test FA market, no other NFL team interested; en route to 1 year to remain deal.
    Claypool is by far their biggest threat, Washington disappears/nonfactor too often;
    - Good point with Godwin, more of factor than A Brown.
    - Washington has one of fastest young upcoming WR in McLaurin; their dreadful QB issue made it awful than WRs,
    - Carolina i don't include unproven rookies via Marshal, DJ Moore would scare me
    - GB only has Adams .... and then a number of disappoints and so-so's per Vasques, St, Brown, etc. ..Ditto with Saints and Michael Thomas
    -
     
  10. rocyaice

    rocyaice Well-Known Member

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    I don't care where the receivers are taken. Devante Adams is a great receiver. The league missed on him. It is what it is. It happens. The league missed on Brady. They missed on Dak. Nobody sits here and says ....uhhhh Brady at the end of the day is a 6th round pick.....no. No matter where they were drafted Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Randall Cobb, Greg Jennings, etc. were great receivers.

    Let's also understand what Rodgers concerns are....he wants control over that franchise. He wants to be able to say don't draft my replacement in the 1st round of the draft. Has very little to do with the rounds they chose receivers.....


    That's verbatim what you said lol. On your quest to help accommodate my "lack of understanding" you said this:

    Don't tell me a quarterback's play doesn't impact whether the receiver shines or gets to show his talent.

    To answer your question I have no idea what they'd do with Aaron. I just know what they've done. If you want to argue that with Aaron they'd somehow have a extra touchdown or two under him then so be it. I just don't know statistically he can improve on. They are already great stats wise....how do you improve on great? There's nothing above great. If they didn't drop so many passes they'd have better stats as well.

    The Buccaneers didn't change philosophy.....the defense was solid with Winston as well. You know what they changed? QUARTERBACKS lol.

    Just because you change quarterbacks doesn't mean you will statistically be better. The team was better and that's all that matters. Who cares that their receivers stats got worse. Those W's are all that matters.
     
  11. ItzKelz

    ItzKelz Well-Known Member

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    They are definitely in the conversation
     
  12. rocyaice

    rocyaice Well-Known Member

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    That's not entirely true on Juju. The Eagles offered him more money and more years than the Steelers and he took a paycut and stayed with the Steelers. And when it comes to the Steelers Diotae Johnson might be their best wide receiver. He's a bigger threat than Claypool.

    People just aren't familiar with the Steelers names...they hit their ceiling they could be the best receiving group in the L next year. Especially when you factor in age.
     
  13. Aerolithe_Lion

    Aerolithe_Lion Well-Known Member

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    #3 you took my point in #4 and removed context. Many #1’s were parts of 1000 yard duos, but their replacements weren’t subsequently drafted. In 1999 with Isaac Bruce and Marshall Faulk, they still drafted Torrey Holt. But you know what the difference was? Torrey Holt doesn’t play RB, and Julio Jones doesn’t play TE.

    As for Ridley, he was quite literally drafted to replace Sanu. Mohammed didn’t even last 6 months after they took Calvin.

    2016: Amari Cooper playoff elimination game, Oakland vs Houston: 1 catch for 10 yards

    2018: Amari Cooper playoff elimination game log Dallas vs LAR: 1 possession game, winner represented NFC in the Super Bowl, that could have gone differently had Cooper done more than... 6 catches for 65 yards

    2019: Amari Cooper division on the line Vs Philadelphia: lost by 1 possession... 4 catches for 24 yards.

    2020: Amari Cooper, despite all their woes, Dallas is in position to win the division. Final 5 games of the season? Averages 4 catches for 58 yards.

    0 career 1200 yard seasons. 0 career double digit TD seasons, despite playing for 4 different offensive coordinators, 2 different pro bowl QBs.

    If this is how you define a #1 producing, offensive focal point who shows up in big games when the team needs him the most, then we simply have WILDLY different expectations of #1 WR production


    1k yards is very impressive with a backup QB... for a #2.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  14. Redball Express

    Redball Express All Aboard!!!

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    It all depends on Dak. Does he recover fully or are their lingering problems for him?
    As we saw with Dalton..the WRs are sqwat if the QB is not Dak.
     
  15. Big_D

    Big_D Well-Known Member

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    This group is not the best in the league. Probably closer to the middle of the pack.
     
  16. Diehardblues

    Diehardblues Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Like Tampa’s too.
     
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  17. Diehardblues

    Diehardblues Well-Known Member

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    Good list
     
  18. Big_D

    Big_D Well-Known Member

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    Some around here are very impressed with 1100 and 7. Best route runner in the league. lol another one not worth the money while his greatness is over exaggerated. A great #1 receiver should be in the neighborhood of 1300 + and double digits. Cooper is not that. Never has been, never will be.
     
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  19. JoeKing

    JoeKing Diehard Zone Supporter

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    Maybe not the best but one of.
     
  20. rocyaice

    rocyaice Well-Known Member

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    I find it odd you don't find Amari Cooper to be a #1 but the Eagles tried to trade for him because they lacked a #1.....Cowboys actually did and then the Football Team tried to sign him for 100 million....:laugh:

    Did you not say teams with #1's don't draft receivers in the 1st round?

    And your point that Cooper isn't a #1 was because Andy Dalton couldn't find him the football?

    So is Deandre Hopkins not a #1 because of what he did in a elimination game last year against the sorry 49ers? You know when he went :

    DeAndre Hopkins 8 catches for 48 yards on 12 targets and 0 touchdowns?

    Seems like your rules to being a #1 is anyone but Amari Cooper lol. 1200 Yards makes you a #1 receiver but 1189 means you're not...if only he had those extra 11 yards he would've been a #1 that year lol.
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