Do Cowboys have Best WR unit in NFL?

Denim Chicken

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that is true, but that’s also been the ceiling thus far for all 3. Lamb obviously was a rookie; but until he’s done something more, he hasn’t.

they each had close to 1000, and Hopkins had 1400 by himself

No doubt Hopkins is better individually than any other WR, but that's not what were talking about. Plus he doesn't have much competition in STL.

Also, Cooper's ceiling is not 1000. He's gone over that mark thrice in his career. Gallup had over 1100 in 2019 as well. Lamb, as you stated, is too ealry to tell, but 935 as a rookie with Dalton tells me he's we haven't seen anything yet.
 

tyke1doe

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He's never had a true #1? Davante Adams is arguably the best receiver in the league right now lol...

Devante Adams was drafted in the second round. But, for the sake of argument, I'll give you Adams. Who else?
Rodgers has been surrounded by mid-round picks, certainly not picks in the first round. And, yet, he has developed into one of the greatest passing quarterbacks in NFL history. Who do you think was better at what they did - Rodgers or his receivers?

Don't do that. I never ONCE said QB play doesn't impact whether receiver shines or not. I'm saying why in the hell are you using the Cowboys and Browns as examples of receivers not shining?

I don't think I said they wouldn't shine. I think I implied that they would shine more. Or let me just ask you point blank: Do you think the Cowboys receivers would be better with Dak under center than Rodgers?


And to dispell this argument.....explain why Mike Evans and Chris Godwin's stats were better with Jameis Winston then they were with Tom Brady?

Because, silly, I said that a receiver's productivity involves both the quarterback AND offensive philosophy.
Maybe the Bucs passed more with Winston. Maybe the defense was worse under Winston, which resulted in longer drives compared to the defense Brady played with, giving him a short field to work with.

There are numerous reasons behind stats. It's the same with people comparing Dak's stats to Rodgers' then concluding Dak is better than Rodgers because, well, the stats say so.

Be that as it may, I think any reasonable person understands what I'm saying. Obviously, a receiver has to have talent; otherwise, he wouldn't be in the league.

But, often, a receiver is dependent upon the quarterback and the offensive philosophy.

If you disagree, so be it.
 

Aerolithe_Lion

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How is Cooper not a #1 receiver?

A #1 WR is not the guy who beat out the other 5 on the roster. He's the guy you throw to in the big games, he's the guy who produces at the level of a number 1, the guy who's the focal point of your passing offense... the only attributes Cooper has right now that point to him being a #1 WR are potential and rate of pay. There aren't a lot of #1 WRs in the NFL. #1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo, and the team still drafts a WR in the first round anyway. #1's aren't guys talked about getting cut 1-2 years after they sign their first big deal. Is it possible if Lamb breaks out next year that Dallas thinks paying Amari 20m for 2022 doesn't make a lot of sense? That's very possible. And that's probably the best case scenario for the team as well. Amari has been getting force fed the ball the entire first half of his career, and all he has is some pretty good pro bowl seasons to show for it. Now he’s got 2 guys vying for his touches, and they’re improving at a rate beyond what he is. The longer this goes on, the bigger reduction he’ll have in the offense.

Remember the 2019 Division-deciding game against Philadelphia? If Mike Evans were Dallas's '#1,' how do you think he would have shown up in that game? If it was Davante Adams, how do you think he would have performed? Adam Thielen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreke Hill? Those are guys I would consider tier 2 WR's. Now how did Amari do? Did he take himself out of the game at the end or was he benched? Who knows, that would have never happened had it been Keenan Allen.

In 2017, Adam Thielen's QB went down with injury, and he proceeded to have a monster year. 1276 yards receiving. They made it to the NFCCG, and we found out next year Keenum still sucked... Thielen was basically carrying him. in 2017, Aaron Rodgers went down with injury, missed most of the season. Davante Adams only played 14 games, mostly with the backup, still caught double digit TDs (which amari has never done), and still made the pro bowl. In 2019, Miami flip flopped between Josh Rosen and Ryan Fitzpatrick, that was ugly. Despite this Devante Parker started 14 games, had 1200 yards receiving and 9 TDs. This can go on and on. 2014, Foles started 8 games, Mark Sanchez started 8 games, Jeremy Maclin still had 1300+ yards despite this. And he was a quintessential #3 WR.

In week 5 of 2019, his only full year with Dak, he caught 222 yards against green Bay. That represented 19% of his entire production for the season. 1 game out of 16 was 19%. How can that be? Because it was the only game even over 100 yards in that entire 5 game span. He didn't even catch 100 yards in any of the final 7 games of the season... 1 TD in that span too. That's not a #1 WR. He's an extraordinarily streaky player. He has big games, then he disappears for nearly a month.

Amari Cooper is not a #1 WR because you know he is not reliable enough to be one. He is not particularly special in any real fashion. His hands are good, but he has his share of "mental lapse" drops. He has good speed, but there's always some kind of degenerative issue in his feet the announcers bring up when hes not creating separation. His routes are good, but they're not translating into big numbers like they do for they guys who are great at them.

When he was in Oakland, people made all these excuses for him. Its the QB, Carr isnt a true franchise guy, he doesnt have the arm. Its the coaching, its the environmen; Oakland itself. Every year Amari has now been in Dallas has looked exactly like he did in Oakland. Dak throwing him the ball, Carr, throwing him the ball, Dalton throwing him the ball. 3 dramatically different QBs, hes still exactly the same, ceiling stays where it is. We're still banging the drum for his potential in year SEVEN. This isnt a year 3 or 4 guy playing for that big payday. Hes 1000 yards, 6 TDs, and thank you for my 20m$.

So why do I not rank Amari Cooper amongst the true #1 Wr's in the NFL? When that game comes up that will be Dak's career-defining game, people won't expect Cooper to break out and carry the passing offense... they'll simply hope he does. Because it's not a ranking of hope, its a ranking of is. Right now his career looks a whole lot more like Jake Reed than it does Cris Carter.
 
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TheMarathonContinues

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A #1 WR is not the guy who beat out the other 5 on the roster. He's the guy you throw to in the big games, he's the guy who produces at the level of a number 1, the guy who's the focal point of your passing offense... the only attributes Cooper has right now that point to him being a #1 WR are potential and rate of pay. There aren't a lot of #1 WRs in the NFL. #1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo, and the team still drafts a WR in the first round anyway. #1's aren't guys talked about getting cut 1-2 years after they sign their first big deal. Is it possible if Lamb breaks out next year that Dallas thinks paying Amari 20m for 2022 doesn't make a lot of sense? That's very possible. And that's probably the best case scenario for the team as well.

Remember the 2019 Division-deciding game against Philadelphia? If Mike Evans were Dallas's '#1,' how do you think he would have shown up in that game? If it was Davante Adams, how do you think he would have performed? Adam Thielen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreke Hill? Those are guys I would consider tier 2 WR's. Now how did Amari do? Did he take himself out of the game at the end or was he benched? Who knows, that would have never happened had it been Keenan Allen.

In 2017, Adam Thielen's QB went down with injury, and he proceeded to have a monster year. 1276 yards receiving. They made it to the NFCCG, and we found out next year Keenum still sucked... Thielen was basically carrying him. in 2017, Aaron Rodgers went down with injury, missed most of the season. Davante Adams only played 14 games, mostly with the backup, still caught double digit TDs (which amari has never done), and still made the pro bowl. In 2019, Miami flip flopped between Josh Rosen and Ryan Fitzpatrick, that was ugly. Despite this Devante Parker started 14 games, had 1200 yards receiving and 9 TDs. This can go on and on. 2014, Foles started 8 games, Mark Sanchez started 8 games, Jeremy Maclin still had 1300+ yards despite this. And he was a quintessential #3 WR.

In week 5 of 2019, his only full year with Dak, he caught 222 yards against green Bay. That represented 19% of his entire production for the season. 1 game out of 16 was 19%. How can that be? Because it was the only game even over 100 yards in that entire 5 game span. He didn't even catch 100 yards in any of the final 7 games of the season... 1 TD in that span too. That's not a #1 WR. He's an extraordinarily streaky player. He has big games, then he disappears for nearly a month.

Amari Cooper is not a #1 WR because you know he is not reliable enough to be one. He is not particularly special in any real fashion. His hands are good, but he has his share of "mental lapse" drops. He has good speed, but there's always some kind of degenerative issue in his feet the announcers bring up when hes not creating separation. His routes are good, but they're not translating into big numbers like they do for they guys who are great at them.

When he was in Oakland, people made all these excuses for him. Its the QB, Carr isnt a true franchise guy, he doesnt have the arm. Its the coaching, its the environmen; Oakland itself. Every year Amari has now been in Dallas has looked exactly like he did in Oakland. Dak throwing him the ball, Carr, throwing him the ball, Dalton throwing him the ball. 3 dramatically different QBs, hes still exactly the same, ceiling stays where it is. We're still banging the drum for his potential in year SEVEN. This isnt a year 3 or 4 guy playing for that big payday. Hes 1000 yards, 6 TDs, and thank you for my 20m$.

So why do I not rank Amari Cooper amongst the true #1 Wr's in the NFL? When that game comes up that will be Dak's career-defining game, people won't expect Cooper to break out and carry the passing offense... they'll simply hope he does. Because it's not a ranking of hope, its a ranking of is. Right now his career looks a whole lot more like Jake Reed than it does Cris Carter.

Long post so going to try and break down each point.......

1.) Cooper is more than a "guy who beat out the other 5 on the roster. :laugh:
2. "He's the guy you throw to in the big games, he's the guy who produces at the level of a number 1, the guy who's the focal point of your passing offense..." You literally just described Amari Cooper lol.
3. "#1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo," Huh? So Julio Jones isn't a #1? Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison weren't legit #1's? MIke Evans isn't a legit #1 because he has Godwin? Thielen isn't a legit #1 because he has Jefferson? This is just a odd take.....
4) "#1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo, and the team still drafts a WR in the first round anyway. ......" Another very odd take....Falcons had Roddy White and Tony Gonzales when they traded UP for to get Julio Jones....Falcons also drafted Calvin Ridley with Julio and Sanu on the team.....so Julio wasn't a #1?
5)Jason Garrett benching Amari Cooper is no reflection on his #1 status but his own stupidity......
6. He had 1k yards with Andy Dalton at quarterback and a poor offensive line....'nuff said.

Remember the 2019 Division-deciding game against Philadelphia? If Mike Evans were Dallas's '#1,' how do you think he would have shown up in that game? If it was Davante Adams, how do you think he would have performed? Adam Thielen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreke Hill? Those are guys I would consider tier 2 WR's. Now how did Amari do? Did he take himself out of the game at the end or was he benched? Who knows, that would have never happened had it been Keenan Allen.

Remember the 2019 Division-deciding game against Philadelphia? If Mike Evans were Dallas's '#1,' how do you think he would have shown up in that game? If it was Davante Adams, how do you think he would have performed? Adam Thielen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreke Hill? Those are guys I would consider tier 2 WR's. Now how did Amari do? Did he take himself out of the game at the end or was he benched? Who knows, that would have never happened had it been Keenan Allen.
 

OmerV

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Nah....how can you be the best receiving core in the league when you lead the league in drops the past 2 years? They are hype until proven otherwise.

And on another note...how did you leave off the Steelers? They have arguably the best in the league.

Juju, Claypool, Ray Ray, James Washington and Diontae Johnson? I'd give it to them honestly.
There is a middle ground between being the best and being "all hype"
 

quickccc

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The Cowboys are for sure in the conversation.
  • Tampa Bay: You left off Pro Bowler...Chris Godwin
  • Pittsburgh: you forgot the loaded Steelers WR group--Smith-Schuster, D Johnson, Claypool, Washington
  • Washington is truly awful. Samuels was WR3 at best on Carolina...and Panthers now have Anderson, DJ Moore, and Terrace Marshal
  • Green Bay has Adams then drops into WR3 or WR4 range

- Smith Schuster has vastly disappointed, Pitt left to test FA market, no other NFL team interested; en route to 1 year to remain deal.
Claypool is by far their biggest threat, Washington disappears/nonfactor too often;
- Good point with Godwin, more of factor than A Brown.
- Washington has one of fastest young upcoming WR in McLaurin; their dreadful QB issue made it awful than WRs,
- Carolina i don't include unproven rookies via Marshal, DJ Moore would scare me
- GB only has Adams .... and then a number of disappoints and so-so's per Vasques, St, Brown, etc. ..Ditto with Saints and Michael Thomas
-
 

TheMarathonContinues

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Devante Adams was drafted in the second round. But, for the sake of argument, I'll give you Adams. Who else?
Rodgers has been surrounded by mid-round picks, certainly not picks in the first round. And, yet, he has developed into one of the greatest passing quarterbacks in NFL history. Who do you think was better at what they did - Rodgers or his receivers?



I don't think I said they wouldn't shine. I think I implied that they would shine more. Or let me just ask you point blank: Do you think the Cowboys receivers would be better with Dak under center than Rodgers?




Because, silly, I said that a receiver's productivity involves both the quarterback AND offensive philosophy.
Maybe the Bucs passed more with Winston. Maybe the defense was worse under Winston, which resulted in longer drives compared to the defense Brady played with, giving him a short field to work with.

There are numerous reasons behind stats. It's the same with people comparing Dak's stats to Rodgers' then concluding Dak is better than Rodgers because, well, the stats say so.

Be that as it may, I think any reasonable person understands what I'm saying. Obviously, a receiver has to have talent; otherwise, he wouldn't be in the league.

But, often, a receiver is dependent upon the quarterback and the offensive philosophy.

If you disagree, so be it.

I don't care where the receivers are taken. Devante Adams is a great receiver. The league missed on him. It is what it is. It happens. The league missed on Brady. They missed on Dak. Nobody sits here and says ....uhhhh Brady at the end of the day is a 6th round pick.....no. No matter where they were drafted Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Randall Cobb, Greg Jennings, etc. were great receivers.

Let's also understand what Rodgers concerns are....he wants control over that franchise. He wants to be able to say don't draft my replacement in the 1st round of the draft. Has very little to do with the rounds they chose receivers.....


I don't think I said they wouldn't shine. I think I implied that they would shine more. Or let me just ask you point blank: Do you think the Cowboys receivers would be better with Dak under center than Rodgers?

That's verbatim what you said lol. On your quest to help accommodate my "lack of understanding" you said this:

Don't tell me a quarterback's play doesn't impact whether the receiver shines or gets to show his talent.

To answer your question I have no idea what they'd do with Aaron. I just know what they've done. If you want to argue that with Aaron they'd somehow have a extra touchdown or two under him then so be it. I just don't know statistically he can improve on. They are already great stats wise....how do you improve on great? There's nothing above great. If they didn't drop so many passes they'd have better stats as well.

The Buccaneers didn't change philosophy.....the defense was solid with Winston as well. You know what they changed? QUARTERBACKS lol.

Just because you change quarterbacks doesn't mean you will statistically be better. The team was better and that's all that matters. Who cares that their receivers stats got worse. Those W's are all that matters.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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- Smith Schuster has vastly disappointed, Pitt left to test FA market, no other NFL team interested; en route to 1 year to remain deal.
Claypool is by far their biggest threat, Washington disappears/nonfactor too often;
- Good point with Godwin, more of factor than A Brown.
- Washington has one of fastest young upcoming WR in McLaurin; their dreadful QB issue made it awful than WRs,
- Carolina i don't include unproven rookies via Marshal, DJ Moore would scare me
- GB only has Adams .... and then a number of disappoints and so-so's per Vasques, St, Brown, etc. ..Ditto with Saints and Michael Thomas
-
That's not entirely true on Juju. The Eagles offered him more money and more years than the Steelers and he took a paycut and stayed with the Steelers. And when it comes to the Steelers Diotae Johnson might be their best wide receiver. He's a bigger threat than Claypool.

People just aren't familiar with the Steelers names...they hit their ceiling they could be the best receiving group in the L next year. Especially when you factor in age.
 

Aerolithe_Lion

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Long post so going to try and break down each point.......

3. "#1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo," Huh? So Julio Jones isn't a #1? Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison weren't legit #1's? MIke Evans isn't a legit #1 because he has Godwin? Thielen isn't a legit #1 because he has Jefferson? This is just a odd take.....
4) "#1's aren't guys who are part of a 1000 yard duo, and the team still drafts a WR in the first round anyway. ......" Another very odd take....Falcons had Roddy White and Tony Gonzales when they traded UP for to get Julio Jones....Falcons also drafted Calvin Ridley with Julio and Sanu on the team.....so Julio wasn't a #1?

#3 you took my point in #4 and removed context. Many #1’s were parts of 1000 yard duos, but their replacements weren’t subsequently drafted. In 1999 with Isaac Bruce and Marshall Faulk, they still drafted Torrey Holt. But you know what the difference was? Torrey Holt doesn’t play RB, and Julio Jones doesn’t play TE.

As for Ridley, he was quite literally drafted to replace Sanu. Mohammed didn’t even last 6 months after they took Calvin.

Long post so going to try and break down each point.......


2. "He's the guy you throw to in the big games, he's the guy who produces at the level of a number 1, the guy who's the focal point of your passing offense..." You literally just described Amari Cooper lol.

2016: Amari Cooper playoff elimination game, Oakland vs Houston: 1 catch for 10 yards

2018: Amari Cooper playoff elimination game log Dallas vs LAR: 1 possession game, winner represented NFC in the Super Bowl, that could have gone differently had Cooper done more than... 6 catches for 65 yards

2019: Amari Cooper division on the line Vs Philadelphia: lost by 1 possession... 4 catches for 24 yards.

2020: Amari Cooper, despite all their woes, Dallas is in position to win the division. Final 5 games of the season? Averages 4 catches for 58 yards.

0 career 1200 yard seasons. 0 career double digit TD seasons, despite playing for 4 different offensive coordinators, 2 different pro bowl QBs.

If this is how you define a #1 producing, offensive focal point who shows up in big games when the team needs him the most, then we simply have WILDLY different expectations of #1 WR production


6. He had 1k yards with Andy Dalton at quarterback and a poor offensive line....'nuff said.

1k yards is very impressive with a backup QB... for a #2.
 
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Redball Express

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Do Cowboys have the Best WR unit in NFL ?
Where would you rank Cowboys WR unit among the top WR units in the entire NFL ?

After some thoughts, this is how I would rank Cowboys WR unit vs other top WR units.
Thoughts ? How would you rank the better WR units in NFL ?

1) Seattle (Metcalf, Lockett)

2) Cleveland (Landry, Beckham, Higgins)

3) Arizona (Hopkins, AJ Green, Kirk, Fitz)

4) ATL (Ridley, Julio J, Gage)

5) Dallas (Cooper, Lamb, Gallup)

6) Buff (Diggs, Beasley, Sanders)

7) KC chiefs (Hill, Robinson, Hardman)

8) Bucs (Evans, A. brown)

9) Vikes (Jefferson, Thielen)

10) Washington (McLaurin, Samuels)

Honorable Mention:
Green bay (Adams,Vasquez)
Denver (Sutton Jeudy)
Rams (woods, Kupp, Jefferson)
It all depends on Dak. Does he recover fully or are their lingering problems for him?
As we saw with Dalton..the WRs are sqwat if the QB is not Dak.
 

Big_D

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This group is not the best in the league. Probably closer to the middle of the pack.
 

Diehardblues

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Couple different ways to look at it, Minnesota has a 1300 and a 1400 yard receiver. Dallas doesn’t even have a 1200 yard receiver

But I’d put Arizona 1. Hopkins is the best in the world, AJ Green and Larry Fitzgerald are a better 2&3 than any other team has
Yep. Like Tampa’s too.
 

Diehardblues

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Kansas City Chiefs – Tyreek Hill, Sammy Watkins, Mecole Hardman.
Denver Broncos – Courtland Sutton, Jerry Jeudy, KJ Hamler.
Dallas Cowboys – Amari Cooper, Michael Gallup, CeeDee Lamb.
Tampa Bay Buccaneers – Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Tyler Johnson.
Arizona Cardinals – DeAndre Hopkins, Larry Fitzgerald, Christian Kirk.
Good list
 

Big_D

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#3 you took my point in #4 and removed context. Many #1’s were parts of 1000 yard duos, but their replacements weren’t subsequently drafted. In 1999 with Isaac Bruce and Marshall Faulk, they still drafted Torrey Holt. But you know what the difference was? Torrey Holt doesn’t play RB, and Julio Jones doesn’t play TE.

As for Ridley, he was quite literally drafted to replace Sanu. Mohammed didn’t even last 6 months after they took Calvin.



2016: Amari Cooper playoff elimination game, Oakland vs Houston: 1 catch for 10 yards

2018: Amari Cooper playoff elimination game log Dallas vs LAR: 1 possession game, winner represented NFC in the Super Bowl, that could have gone differently had Cooper done more than... 6 catches for 65 yards

2019: Amari Cooper division on the line Vs Philadelphia: lost by 1 possession... 4 catches for 24 yards.

2020: Amari Cooper, despite all their woes, Dallas is in position to win the division. Final 5 games of the season? Averages 4 catches for 58 yards.

0 career 1200 yard seasons. 0 career double digit TD seasons, despite playing for 4 different offensive coordinators, 2 different pro bowl QBs.

If this is how you define a #1 producing, offensive focal point who shows up in big games when the team needs him the most, then we simply have WILDLY different expectations of #1 WR production




1k yards is very impressive with a backup QB... for a #2.


Some around here are very impressed with 1100 and 7. Best route runner in the league. lol another one not worth the money while his greatness is over exaggerated. A great #1 receiver should be in the neighborhood of 1300 + and double digits. Cooper is not that. Never has been, never will be.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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#3 you took my point in #4 and removed context. Many #1’s were parts of 1000 yard duos, but their replacements weren’t subsequently drafted. In 1999 with Isaac Bruce and Marshall Faulk, they still drafted Torrey Holt. But you know what the difference was? Torrey Holt doesn’t play RB, and Julio Jones doesn’t play TE.

As for Ridley, he was quite literally drafted to replace Sanu. Mohammed didn’t even last 6 months after they took Calvin.



2016: Amari Cooper playoff elimination game, Oakland vs Houston: 1 catch for 10 yards

2018: Amari Cooper playoff elimination game log Dallas vs LAR: 1 possession game, winner represented NFC in the Super Bowl, that could have gone differently had Cooper done more than... 6 catches for 65 yards

2019: Amari Cooper division on the line Vs Philadelphia: lost by 1 possession... 4 catches for 24 yards.

2020: Amari Cooper, despite all their woes, Dallas is in position to win the division. Final 5 games of the season? Averages 4 catches for 58 yards.

0 career 1200 yard seasons. 0 career double digit TD seasons, despite playing for 4 different offensive coordinators, 2 different pro bowl QBs.

If this is how you define a #1 producing, offensive focal point who shows up in big games when the team needs him the most, then we simply have WILDLY different expectations of #1 WR production




1k yards is very impressive with a backup QB... for a #2.

I find it odd you don't find Amari Cooper to be a #1 but the Eagles tried to trade for him because they lacked a #1.....Cowboys actually did and then the Commanders tried to sign him for 100 million....:laugh:

Did you not say teams with #1's don't draft receivers in the 1st round?

And your point that Cooper isn't a #1 was because Andy Dalton couldn't find him the football?

So is Deandre Hopkins not a #1 because of what he did in a elimination game last year against the sorry 49ers? You know when he went :

DeAndre Hopkins 8 catches for 48 yards on 12 targets and 0 touchdowns?

Seems like your rules to being a #1 is anyone but Amari Cooper lol. 1200 Yards makes you a #1 receiver but 1189 means you're not...if only he had those extra 11 yards he would've been a #1 that year lol.
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